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What Kind of Counsel?

M
moreofHim Sep 23, 2005

This passage has really stayed with me as I read it a few months ago. I have had my share of needing biblical counsel and I know many who also have need of it. I have always found it interesting that our flesh would like a "counselor" who will let us off the hook, or justify our actions. Yet, if we want to grow and change into His likeness, then we will want the truth. We will want to know what God says about our hearts, our actions and our emotions. This is why I have enjoyed studying Nouthetic Counseling.In Him, Chanin---------------------What kind of counsel do you desire?-The disciple who honestly seeks to let God remold his mind will direct his energies not to sorting out the exceptions, loopholes, or fine points of the law, but to a total surrender of obedient love.The disciplined Christian will be very careful what sort of counsel he seeks from others. Counsel that contradicts the written Word is ungodly counsel. Blessed is the man that walketh not in that.Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface. His interpretation of the secrets revealed may be more palatable than that which the person would have found for himself on the pages of the Bible, for the Word is "...sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13Throughout our earthly lives...we will accept the solutions, answers, and escapes that the world offers (and there are plenty of those), or the radical alternative shown to the mind attuned to Christ's. The ways of the world exalt themselves against God. They sometimes look rational and appealing to the most earnest disciple, but Christ says to us (as He said to his disciples long ago when they had given up), "Do you also want to leave Me?" Hopefully we will answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life".-Elisabeth Elliot (Discipline: The Glad Surrender)

sermonindex Sep 23, 2005

for the Word is "...sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13OUCH! I've never seen this wording of this passage. Always thought of it more like He will divide for us and cut away our slough, so we see where the life really is....Hopefully we will answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life".No argument here. :-)

G
ginnyrose Sep 23, 2005

You wrote: The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface. No truer words were ever spoken.Thanks for posting this. Elizabeth Elliot has a gift of cutting to the core issue of whatever matter is discussed.ginnyrose

C
crsschk Sep 23, 2005

Excellent Chanin,It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13Very much find this verse embedded and is in one sense the measuring line of everything that comes alongside it, in our thoughts, in "application" of how we approach scripture, if we are to be teachable. The thoughts that we may be measuring by our own preconceived ideas, if it "fit's" what we already think we might know, instead of it's opposite, submitting even that to the test.And that can be tricky enough as it is, the tendency is to still measure from our angle, not the Lords. Not sure if this fit's rightly here or not but have found it a season of much difficulty in prayer. The first is in this not so curious "resistance" to stop the carnal mind of enmity against the Lord from getting to the place of prayer in the first place. It's the "I ought to be praying, I want to be praying...but I don't feel like praying, would rather do ______" And that can be well intentioned (possibly), reading scripture, a Christian Classic, a book on prayer :-? !!This may seem dissimilar to what you have presented here yet it seems to be much the same in Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.Would have to add Pray to the list.The sheer stupidity in it all is that if we could just discipline ourselves, make ourselves do some things that the flesh recoils at there can be great blessing in it. There is a getting through in prayer even when it is a struggle and that may not be on the timetable we imagine... it could take days, BUT that may be because of one problem itself, and though I know this all too well, the reality and the difficulty could be summed up in just this:Learning how to just shut up.Everything is always clamoring for attention, not only the outward things, but the noise generated in our own heads. What we 'think' we know, what we apt to jump to conclusions on, what we attempt to rationalize or dismiss, even before the Lord in prayer. The question that keeps begging for an answer is "What is it that you want?" And that is in the sense of ultimately, at the very core of our being. The present needs and specifics for whatever circumstances being set aside for the moment to get at a more pressing consideration. "What" or "Who" is it that we are seeking? I cannot think of any higher 'gift' to seek after than God's thought on the matter at hand, which is His will, not in general but in specific, at this moment in time, in this moment of prayer. And to be able to hear anything at all is to shut up everything to be able to hear, not merely listen. To lay everything, every thought, good, bad and indifferent at His feet and be silent. It is a mighty thing sometimes to get there, to a place of utter quietness and silence before Him, but it can be done, it just may take the time and effort to wrestle with ourselves or wrestle it out of ourselves.Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Oh, for this in our prayers. How can we receive any counsel whatsoever from the Lord without it? Is it not the very essence of "Denying yourself"?This is not to open ourselves up to just any old thing in a sort of mystical sense, but purposefully before Him, to "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." Psa 46:10When you can get there, to this place of silence, it is rather amazing what you might find. Often it is in the praise and worship that comes forth even if in the struggle before hand you may have been vexed with any number of troubles, concerns, whatever emotions that had to be subdued. And peace, the rest from fighting against Him, against your own self, the greatest enemy there is. Then it seems we can truly pray and truly intercede for others, gain a truer perspective of ourselves and a clearer understanding of the Lord.The answer personally to the big question from the Lords perspective, "What is it that you want"?Keeps coming back to;Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. That's not mere flowery speech, but from the depths, to be able to share and give back out of the substance of what can only come from Him. It seems an impossibility to share that which we have not received, not from a storehouse of knowledge but from the Counselor Himself. To be clear, what I have found is that getting to this place of silence will bring forth that which has already been absorbed into the spirit, the verses that come to mind, that spring up after everything has been laid down, not that have been sized up before hand. The perception gets altered and you find you can learn something more so that you are willing to learn and willing to let go, willing to see things in a different light...Oh, could go on endlessly with this. Gain silence with the Lord, it's worth every ounce of effort.

sermonindex Sep 23, 2005

"Welcome back Chanin" ... could have used ya some days ago ... but I know y'all have been busy with Katrina's aftermath.I just wanted to give this link 'just' for a definition and say Thank you for this post and for making yourself seen/heard up here again. :-)http://achristiancounselor.com/nouthet.htmlLove in Him.Annie

M
moreofHim Sep 23, 2005

Thanks Annie :)here is another good link www.Nanc.org The article page is : http://www.nanc.org/page.asp?contentid=46&sub=7#articlesIn Him, Chanin

sermonindex Sep 23, 2005

:-) Praise God !

R
rookie Sep 23, 2005

Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord. This I have continued to experience in my life. What I know from the Holy Scripture is that which I fear. Jesus paints a picture of a person who learns from Him. I fear dieing to self. I fear loosing this life. And according to Scripture, I know that:1John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. I have experienced at times this precept. The work of grace in my life has released me from various things which bind me. It is this love that overcomes my fears. Yet I know that there is much more to come. My heart is not even like Peter's when he said he was willing to drink from the same cup as Jesus would soon do. The Lord said at that time that there would come a day that Peter would willingly drink from the same cup.Faith is the substance of what I have been given to hope for. The counsel of the Lord by the Holy Spirit has given me the evidence of the faithfulness of God to conform me into the image of His Son. When I have submitted to His leading, the evidence of His faithfulness is beyond doubt. It has been good, very good. This substance of His grace causes me to rest from that which I once strived for foolishly. Thinking like the woman at the well, that a man or this world will bring satisfaction, Jesus through the Holy Spirit causes me to seek for His living water. Yet, I still seek in many ways to satisfy this thirst with water that is of this world. As I seek the water of this world, fear is it's evidence. This I know. God bless ChaninIn ChristJeff

G
ginnyrose Sep 23, 2005

After I reread this piece again, I was reminded of a verse in Psa. 1:1:Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scoffers! (NASB)And that means the likes of Ann Landers or Dear Abby? I have been convicted on this issue...how many take their advice for life from persons such as this? After I quit reading these advice columns, and read it again, I was shocked....ginnyrose

M
moreofHim Sep 24, 2005

Alot of Elisabeth Elliot's writings, as well as Nancy DeMoss's writings have been a huge influence on me and has produced much conviction and confirmation that has spurred me on to grow and change.Here is an excellent piece on Godly counsel by Nancy DeMoss (from "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free")+++"In spite of all the talk about poor self-image, our instinctive reaction to life is self-centered: How does this affect me? Will this make me happy? Why did this have to happen to me? What does she think about me? It's my turn. Where's my share? Nobody cares about my ideas. He hurt my feelings. I've got to have some time for me. I need my space. He's not sensative to my needs.It's not enough for us to be the center of our own universe. We want to be the center of everyone else's universe as well--including God's. In his book Finding God, Dr. Larry Crabb offers a penetrating analysis of the extent to which the evangelical church has given in to this deception: "Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are. Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming... We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God. Feeling better has become more important than finding God... As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ into a basis for honoring ourselves rather than seeing those truths for what they are: the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else. ...We have rearranged things so that God is now worthy of honor because He has honored us. "Worthy is the Lamb", we cry, not in response to His amazing grace, but because He has recovered what we value most: the ability to like ourselves. We now matter more than God." Paul understood that God does not exhist for us, but that we exhist for Him:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." col.1:16"...nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." acts 20:24 The bottom line for Paul was: "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." Once that was settled, nothing else mattered much." --Nancy DeMoss

sermonindex Sep 24, 2005

Mike, you've said a lot of real truths, here. I have a few points I'd like to pick up on, which you may or may not find helpful. Please eat what's useful encouragement and spit out the pips. I recognise each of us has to break through alone in prayer and the Lord allows us many challenges to give us an opportunity to practise and overcome in many different scenarios.And that can be tricky enough as it is, the tendency is to still measure from our angle, not the Lords. Stating this is a sign you're aware there is a difference. The born again vicar of my local Anglican church, a man in his sixties (relentless evangelist) testified one Sunday morning he had known of a decision he had had to make by that day, for months. He had turned the issue over in his mind every way he could think and was still no clearer as the the right option. Then it occurred to him that he hadn't actually prayed about it, so he brought it before the Lord and within half an hour, had the answer - consisting of an option which had not crossed his mind previously. Amen.but I don't feel like praying, Would have to add Pray to the list.I think you hit on an answer when you said thisOften it is in the praise and worship that comes forth I know you meant that in the context of having broken through into silence, so I have two questions. Have you ever tried beginning with the worship? Launching yourself out into the praise by an act of will and continuing until the Spirit catches you up? The other question is, have you ever tried getting to the place of silence from praying out loud...? I mean, by saying what's on your heart - all the thoughts and considerations - and just listen and home in on the points which the Spirit quickens to you, and keep homing in until there is that silence? Even as I write this, it seems inconceivable to me that you have never done this, but, sometimes, if one is trying to pray while others are asleep, making a noise is not an option. Therefore, because of the benefit of hearing what your spirit is bringing through your mouth to the Lord, I'd say you must find a place where you can speak out loud... - the car, the garden, a walk - all can free up the internal system. Then, by listening to what you pray in the Spirit, you are closer to working out the answer to The question that keeps begging for an answer is "What is it that you want?" Your spirit in fellowship with His Spirit knows the answer.... it just needs to be communicated to your thinking brain.And peace, the rest from fighting against Him, against your own self, the greatest enemy there is. Then it seems we can truly pray and truly intercede for others, gain a truer perspective of ourselves and a clearer understanding of the Lord.'...from the depths, to be able to share and give back out of the substance of what can only come from Him. It seems an impossibility to share that which we have not received, not from a storehouse of knowledge but from the Counselor Himself. To be clear, what I have found is that getting to this place of silence will bring forth that which has already been absorbed into the spirit, the verses that come to mind, that spring up after everything has been laid down, not that have been sized up before hand. The perception gets altered and you find you can learn something more so that you are willing to learn and willing to let go, willing to see things in a different light...Oh, could go on endlessly with this. Gain silence with the Lord, it's worth every ounce of effort. Praise the Lord! This is all good. Myself, I'm not keen on playing worship music to 'get into the mood'. I'd rather bring my complaints to God just as they are in true David style, than waste time pretending to be 'spiritual' if something else is burning on my heart. The Father is actually interested in the things that bother us and often, He sends the answers to them for their own sake, because they are important too, especially if they block our route to Him. One thing is sure, He is keen for us to enter His presence by the shortest route. Also, sometimes it is worth LOOKING at the obstacle and having a think about the reason it is an obstacle, instead of trying to push past it with a certain degree of denial. Just a thought.

C
crsschk Sep 24, 2005

Have you ever tried beginning with the worship? Launching yourself out into the praise by an act of will and continuing until the Spirit catches you up?When it's honest, yes. But ... as a discipline to wrestle away from my own thoughts whether that may come or not.. not thinking of any particular expectations in this particular manner, just to be still. The other question is, have you ever tried getting to the place of silence from praying out loud...? I mean, by saying what's on your heart - all the thoughts and considerations - and just listen and home in on the points which the Spirit quickens to you, and keep homing in until there is that silence? Surely at times, as you mentioned and generally the car, but even without the vocal chords (Difficult with others in the house at an early hour as you also mentioned) there is the unburdening of all these things and often the wonderful sense of silence that just takes over, hadn't thought of it as something to work up to and don't think that is what you are stating perhaps, but it just seems to happen... It's a little different line of thought I may have been trailing, another way would be, what of Gods silence? Just to be in His Presence.Your spirit in fellowship with His Spirit knows the answer.... it just needs to be communicated to your thinking brain.Referring back to the "What is it that you want?" Was thinking out loud there maybe without clarification. It is something that will come up often in prayer. It's both a question of my own generating and would like to think from the Holy Spirit as well. It's to ask an honest question of what is it that I am seeking? This is where it may tie in with the next well said statements that Chanin brought forth. (Briefly, hesitated putting this into this thread here in the first place, would prefer it didn't distract from the areas it touched on, will try something different elsewhere)It does come back to seeking something purely for ourselves and our self interests. That is the "Big question". Surely it varies, but often it's in asking that in an honest matter that I find I really don't "want" anything at all ..."Wantless". Again, tricky. There is many things I do want. I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is not as I might have wrongly perceived Him. I want to understand and I want for instance those here, all of us to understand so they might help me understand better and turn it around and give it right back again. But asking that question also makes one realize just what it is that matters. It isn't what's in my best interest, but what is Gods, better, what is it that He wants? Of me? Of us? And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen, :-) That without any particular expectation, just to be in His Presence. It's quite interesting to think on that verse in Revelation...

C
crsschk Sep 24, 2005

Chanin,Again, this is so on the mark. Felt it a diservice to start taking quotables out of it. What an apt description. Sorry for the interuptions prior, hope this get's well read.Only the title seems misleading; "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free". Women? ;-)

sermonindex Sep 25, 2005

Without doubt, Mike, what you describe here is perfect for this thread, especially the last embedded sentence. I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is not as I might have wrongly perceived Him. I want to understand and I want for instance those here, all of us to understand so they might help me understand better and turn it around and give it right back again. But asking that question also makes one realize just what it is that matters. It isn't what's in my best interest, but what is Gods, better, what is it that He wants? Of me? Of us? And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listenTo clarify what I said earlier a little further, it is O Chambers who encourages us to do things differently for the good of our soul - not to be a slave to routine or to have a pet way of doing things practical or spiritual, such that the rut prevents us from being touchable.He is also credited with 'if the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'; and I think this is what I was trying to get at by suggesting you take the offensive. I do realise it isn't easy, but, like eating any elephant, it has to be cut into smaller pieces (sorry for very old analogy) and I've put a few suggestions in Eli's old thread 'More than Conquerors'.As OC says, the moment one finds oneself 'disinclined' that is the moment to STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and deal with it before God. Listen, I know I'm preaching to the converted.... Just want to encourage you there is a breakthrough point... It's just a matter of keeping on pushing until you hit it.

sermonindex Sep 25, 2005

Hi Chanin,This bit of the quote really bothers me, because people can't help arriving in church with these difficulties."Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are. Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming... Quite simply, if disciples were out roaming the streets laying hands on the sick and healing them - and casting out demons - by the time the healed, recovered and delivered were making commitment to become Christians, they would be ready from the start to take up their crosses. I know this is an oversimplification, but, it IS the reason there are so many people in the church who need attention to their inner man. And, it is not WRONG to need attention to one's inner man.In fact, the Church's attitude - that it is alarming people arrive as Christians with these needs - is part of the problem. The Church should be MUCH more aware of the damage done by a life of sin and idolatry than it appears to be willing to acknowledge. This sort of denial does nothing to address basic healing needs. I agree there is a process of how to learn to think differently. Learning how to let go of pain is another valid learning curve, for the emotionally/physically damaged Christian. (Chanin, I'm not suggesting you don't know this nor, that you are unsympathetic. I'm merely taking the discussion you've offered and running with it as I see the issues. :-) )We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God. The brutal truth is, that people whose pain is so little they still have inner strength, energy and enough resistance to wrestle with it, are not the sort of people who need the sort of healing which those in the first quoted section do.I agree wholeheartedly that if 'Feeling better has become more important than finding God...' there is a problem. But, that is possibly the perception of the onlooker who is not feeling so unfit that they need to feel better to function. The word 'feel' here, is misleading, because it has been put there by the writer/speaker/thinker and it suggests (again) there is something wrong with feeling unfit, where the word chosen could just as easily have been 'being' unfit. BEING BETTER. That's the pupose of healing.An honest Christian will still press on by faith even though they're 'feeling' rough, if they perceive God Himself is meeting their need for strength in the inner man. Many do this. But, if God has not met them, it is OUT OF ORDER of fellow Christians to be critical of the deep injury which GOD has chosen NOT to heal at their conversion. We should ALL be aware HE orders their lives and ours, as we do our best to be stones in the same temple, being made to fit perfectly together. It takes time and patience to chip away at those edges, but, it is glorious Body-building work, in which we all are called-upon to engage.Were the received wisdom in churches such as is necessary to help those in need through their personal distress, perhaps this would not be such a legitimate discsussion.EDIT: 26.9.05 1300hBSTI was going to apologise here for having used capitals (because I was in a hurry) rather than italic and bolds which appear more measured. Perhaps the capitals make the post look as if I'm ranting. But, judging from the posts that follow this one, I have to accept there may be a difference culturally, which the US posters are genuinely concerned about. What troubles me is not the emphasis on the necessity for each individual to lay down self-pity (AMEN!) and also to take responsibility for bringing themselves and their sin to Jesus for forgiveness, but the underlying implication that these two approaches somehow constitute healing.When Jesus healed, yes, sin was sometimes mentioned - but not always. Further, He healed multitudes again and again. As I asked earlier in the original post here, where is this healing ministry in the Church today?JESUS CHRIST still is the Great Physician who HEALS. This is not directly to do with the sin of the sick/injured/abused person. I could say very much more on this subtlety. I think it is more helpful to testify of my own having received the Holy Spirit and gifts while still needing monumental healing. The Lord graciously used me in many situations while 'going I was healed' (like the 10 lepers), even though my needs were profound. The 18 year old Joseph was not the subject of the sort of abuse which cripples lives such that they require much hard work from the survivor to turn them around. The betrayal by his family was serious, yes, but as the governor, he was in a much better position to organise a happy outcome, than the little people who have to fight against an entire system to be acknowledged.With due respect to the many examples in the SingleVision article, 'A Victim No Longer', attitudes were attributed to the healed person by the pool of Bethesda, which were entirely added to scripture by the speaker. They are not a valid interpretation of the healed person's experience of being healed - which is after all, at the very least, an encounter with the Living God. When HE says take up your bed, I'm sure He's willing to take responsibility for issuing that command.Lastly, without doubt, a local church is not naturally equipped with the attitudes which will most benefit survivors of childhood sexual abuse. And while there are a few considerations which all churches should be able to give all survivors who are healing (since manifestly there are many survivors who don't want to heal at all), in general, survivors of repeated assaults need more than tlc or 'discipline'. A clear boundary should be set beyond which their participation is neither mandatory or expected (depending on their gifts and graces) to enable the local church to get on with all the rest of its work.

sermonindex Sep 25, 2005

Mike, I do believe whole-heartedly that you 'did' hit it.Quote: ""I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is, not as I might have wrongly perceived Him.And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen,:-) "" [end quote]You got it all right there my brother.We have to have a place to go and Make Time to go there, that is our 'Sanctuary', so to speak, and just cry out for what you've asked for above ... period. He'll be found of us who "Seek diligently", is what He said.As extreme "hunger and thirsting" that only HE can see. And when it's strong enough and real enough ... He Knows.HE has to Reveal Himself. No one can reveal Him to me or you or anyone else.Chip calls it, "the revelation of Jesus" and others call it "to SEE Him" and others, "to Kiss the Son", and so forth, but it's personal, between you and HIM ... and comes as we plead to see His Glory. To see HIM as HE IS. To see the REAL HIM. And to be ready and willing to be crushed by seeing Pure Love & Pure Holiness all at once.All that you've said within those few quoted sentences. Amen ! :-)Edit to P.S. ~ Just got that tap on the shoulder to add .... And He wants that with us all the much more than we desire it and even that desire, no matter how weak or strong, came from HIM to begin with.All Praise to Jesus.

C
crsschk Sep 25, 2005

Changed my mind, had thought of moving this reply and realized how disjointed it would have been, so I withdrew the effort and put back the original... In other words, never mind....To clarify what I said earlier a little further, it is O Chambers who encourages us to do things differently for the good of our soul - not to be a slave to routine or to have a pet way of doing things practical or spiritual, such that the rut prevents us from being touchable.Oh with much certainty! There are many thoughts from OC that have been driven deep down into the marrow, one that rises to the top is "How unconventional!"also credited with 'if the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'; and I think this is what I was trying to get at by suggesting you take the offensive. I do realise it isn't easy, but, like eating any elephant, it has to be cut into smaller pieces (sorry for very old analogy) and I've put a few suggestions in Eli's old thread 'More than Conquerors'.As OC says, the moment one finds oneself 'disinclined' that is the moment to STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and deal with it before God. Listen, I know I'm preaching to the converted.... Just want to encourage you there is a breakthrough point... It's just a matter of keeping on pushing until you hit it. Think we are both touching on different aspects, this being a multi-faceted Diamond. There is an aspect of Paul's; "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1Co 9:26,27 on the one hand that may be applicable here, applying it to this "being still" (Interesting how this keeps coming up)On the other hand there is the wrestling of Jacob, "Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." Gen 32:26Funny how these can criss-cross, just prior to this was, "When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him." Gen 32:25 Decommissioned in the flesh and yet "I am not going anywhere", still holding on. Not sure I am making any sense whatsoever here, perhaps thats where the whole exercise elsewhere was heading, that of prayerlessness and of silence, of listening and truly hearing ... if there is any goal in it at all it would be to just to get us praying.

C
crsschk Sep 25, 2005

This bit of the quote really bothers me, because people can't help arriving in church with these difficulties.I don't think that is what is being stated here. Nancy seems to be putting her finger on the matter with; "... has become the central mission of the church. " and "...absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming..."Look at the verbiage in just that one paragraph, it's telling; "Our", "Self" these are the things that she rightly points out that a large part of Christendom has become... "Your best life now" It's the theme of the age. {*EDIT ~ Was just convicted of this as I was listening to a message from Ernest O'Neill, surely disagree with the philosophy, but the slight was wrong, I recant it, irregardless of motives. http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/ } It would be just as much an error to have no compassion, but I don't think that is what is being spoken of, the emphasis is on coddling sinners and not telling the truth, the greater insult is "We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service."As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ into a basis for honoring ourselves rather than seeing those truths for what they are: the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else. Very much think she is right, the emphasis is upside down. Had started musing yesterday on this thought;"Honoring the King"Just the implications and what that used to mean. Perhaps another thread altogether.

M
moreofHim Sep 25, 2005

Hi guys,There are many interesting responses here and I don't have time to get to each individual thing that deserves attention.Mike you are right in saying that it is NOT just women who believe lies :-) . I think some one should write a similar book for men. Actually I do know of one that is pretty close to it and it is called "God's Gift to Women" by Eric Ludy- it dispels the lie of the "brotherhood"- what men have grown up believing is real manhood and reveals what God intends real manhood to be- LIKE CHRIST.I have had my own set of "issues" from the past. I have experienced rejection and pain in my past and have gone through the whole gamut of healing, forgiveness and all of that.O, how do I want to say what I want to say?Here are the words that come to me:accepting responsiblitybeing obedientnot making excuses-and the opposite of these:transferance(blaming others for our problems and mistakes)This is where much counsel takes a wrong turn. It creates "victims". Yes, I have had a bad past. I could blame many of my problems and my actions and attitudes even now (my perfectionist tendancies, the way I treat my husband, my controlling behavior,etc... on how my past effected me.But I won't and don't use excuses. I am responsible for what I know now. If I know something is wrong- then I better do my darndest to let the Lord change me in that area. "Look at Joseph, you talk about a person that was abused and betrayed. At the age of sixteen or seventeen, he was just a kid. His whole family was messed up. You talk about a co-dependent family! His brothers threw him in a pit, soaked his coat in blood, then sold him to traders, who carried to Egypt as a slave, where he was betrayed by Potiphar’s wife, then he's sent to prison, he’s forgotten by the butler, but in all of this he says God was with him.And when he had opportunity to revenge himself with his brothers, he had a fabulous statement to make, "you meant this for evil, but God meant this for good." Joseph had Single Vision, he saw that God meant it for good. Was he a victim? He knew he was victimized, but he knew he stood there by the grace of God and that God had worked through him and through his brothers and through all of those who had abused him for his good and for His glory. Joseph did not see himself as a victim." -Gene Veal(Single Vision Counseling) Because of sin in this world, people in all eras have had terrible tragic lives. But guess what? God still expected obedience and worship. Joseph did that. I am not saying God doesn't have compassion or that we should not have compassion. I think that when we go through certain experiences (which were allowed by God maybe for this very reason) is so that we can have compassion on those who have had similar experiences.The tragedys of Joseph's life were not an accident. God knew what He was doing and what He was planning. He was molding Joseph and He is molding us and creating all kinds of opportunities for us, when we experience pain and rejection, etc... God does everything He does to bring Himself glory.I look back now on my life as a child and young person and I wouldn't change anything. I am who I am today because of my hardships, because I've let God use these things for His good. I can understand people when they feel rejection and I know why they do the things they do. I am drawn to them- to want to help them and bring Truth to them. I know I fall short, but as much as I've been able, I have refused to live as a victim and allow myself to use my rejection and pain as excuses for wrong attitudes and wrong behavior.Seeing ourselves as a victim leads to self pity. O, what a mess we get ourselves into then!There are a couple of wonderful articles at SingleVision Counseling site. A Victim No longerSelf PityWe can look to Jesus as our example:"Whenever your flesh would call itself a victim, if you’ll walk in the Spirit of Christ who you really are, Christ does not have a problem with being a victim. Was there anyone ever victimized as Christ was on the cross? For your sin, not his. You don’t hear Jesus crying he’s a victim. No, he says, if you take up your cross and follow him, you’ll lay down your life for another. Not as a victim at all.""How do we deal with it? The Bible says lay it aside. 'Not my will, but thine be done' is the Christ attitude. The result of referring to what’s happened to you, by referring to yourself as a victim, can result in irresponsibility." -Gene Veal (Single Vision)In Him, Chanin

G
ginnyrose Sep 25, 2005

Chanin,Your testimony proves exactly what I have believed for a long time after counseling females in a crises pregnancy. Far too many people are looking for something that satisfies their inner self, making them feel good. People have been so blinded by this absorption with self that they cannot think outside the box. All they think about is me, me, me, I, I,....In actuality they are guilty of violating the first of the ten commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Meaning they are more interested in serving self then in God and if God can fix it, fine, 'I will allow him to come alongside of me and see if he can fix it' without surrendering their hearts and minds to the One who so longs to come in and make his abode with him/her. In a lot of cases people want to continue in sin without repenting BUT want to CANCEL the consequences of that lifestyle. This is the heart of most people who have been damaged by a sinful lifestyle, either theirs or anothers. We have had women in our church who say they have been victims of abuse and belabored this pass. They say they want help, and we continued to listen and offered advice and love. And they continued their spiel of woe. Now we are beginning to believe they are rebellious people and are shifting blame onto others for their problems. Lies women believe? Yes, this is one of them: "I have been abused." Males, less they are accused of being uncaring, etc, have capitulated and helped no one. Ditto, to the older and wise women. Am I harsh? Sounds like it. The reality is that we have allow rebellious females manipulate the rest of us. To redeem this victim mentalality will require people to stand up and call it what it is and not allow these people to control the group they are a part of. Now to the ones who really are victims of abuse, there is help and it must be given by a loving church family. And it will be done. But you must want help and that includes a complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and ASSUMING responcibilty for your own life AND actions and quit the blaming game. Anything less will never work and the rest of us help no one if we work contrary to this.Likely, there will be people who will believe I have never been abused; don't know what I am talking about; everything always went fine with me. The answer to that is 'no' it has not. But I quit blaming when I realized that on judgement day God is going to hold me accountable for my own actions and to shift blame onto others will never be accepted by Him.ginnyrose

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