You've Been Lied To

Life. Liberty. Pursuing your happiness.These words sound neat- even liberating - to human ears. There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end, it leads to death. Prov 16:25Can I rephrase that ?There is a Way // Humanist doctrine that seems right to a people - but in the end - it leads to Laodecia.Think about Laodecia - and its values. You know the scripture - I won’t quote it [ 3:17]Can we have LAODECIA TODAY - without the human-centered doctrine of ‘we have A RIGHT TO Life, Liberty and Pursuit of human happiness’ ?Humans are so religious ... they’ll even pursue happiness in man-made ‘Religion’. Is there a better way of describing the Laodecians, in theirlukewarmness --- than ‘happy in their comfortable religious forms emanating in Man, but not God’ ?What’s the point, then ?Can non-Laodecian disciples live without “life” ( i no longer live ~ Gal.2:20 ) - “human liberty” ( john 8:36 - 2 Cor 3:17 ) - and "pursuing happiness”( Luke 9:23-25, 14:26b -- Phil 3:8-10 -- Gal 6:14 ) ?Can the Church under harsh Communist oppression in China flourish without these vaunted Western-Laodecian RIGHTS? Sure they can. Read up on the history of 20th Century growth in His Church in China after the Communist takeover in ‘49.We’ve been lied to, my friends ...We don’t need rightsChrist laid His down [ john 19:10 / phil 2:6 - 9 ] - to do the Work of The Father - why do we clutch and clamor over ours ?Why do we think we’re doing a service in God’s name - by fighting democratically/constitutionally - for ‘our rights’ ? Do we realize democracy is of pagan Greece - not Jerusalem?How little we know our own paganness -- as“Constitutional” Christians, playing the harlot with words written unwittingly to pave the Laodecian Broad Path ( Happy Path )to destruction.How little we see of the heavenly City - Jerusalem Above - when our eyes are fixed on Washington, London - or whichever pagan house warmed over by a small dab of ‘christianity’.How ingenious our Adversary is -- insinuating his desires to keep man ensnared in his sin - by insinuating to him the idolatry of freedoms to sin ....... within the Western-Laodecian mix. ( Is there anything more definitive than the country of America, for instance, being a country ‘free to sin’ - and vaunting Its Freedoms to export, for gain -- its “sin culture” around the globe ? )when human freedom is unleashed - sin is unleashed - or do we not yet know this?Why does the Gospel flourish today in areas of theplanet without the chains of Political Freedom ? . .compared to the Gospel ‘move’ in the Cultural West, where we are free ? ( yes, I said chains )Is there a correlation between our “Glorious Rights” guaranteed us by a piece of parchment ( God did not write any modern human constitution, no matter what we’ve been told on this by the Adversary and his powers & principalities in the heavenly places ---Satan loves that we think God ‘guarantees’ our rights to happiness ) -- these glorious “rights” & our Laodecian languishing, today in the West - any correlation ???were First Century hearts free, living under the Roman oppressive yoke ?How many hearts aren’t free in the modern West,today as we’re constitutionally free to enslave ourselves . . .Do we see the meaning of Paul’s declaration: “But, our citizenship is in heaven “ . . ?why the “but” ? if it is but not to contrast with the heart-fixedness of many that name the name of Christ - upon earthly matters ( "civilian affairs" - 2 tim. 2:4) . . .Why aren’t our hearts there ( in heavenly places ) ?Why are we palpitating politically over human “rights” .. as though Christ enjoined us to this battle: Today [ heb 4:7 today if you hear His voice. . harden not - on the political . .]Christ saw Roman oppression whereever He turned . . and so did the apostles. They palpitated not to "work the System" - to change the "Order" of things on earth. [ My kingdom is not of this World, my friends . . ]why are we so worldly, then ?why do we sweat to see 'Religious Men' seek & take office in the land . . in the World, whereever we are . .has there ever been a time in the West, since thefourth century, when western political men did not use ‘the NAME’ ---- in furtherance of their earthly ambition, however well-disguised with apt piousness . . . what a jejune picture this is, then - And we play the harlot with this world System !. . Would not the apostle Paul question us . . if he could be transported to our modern evangelical "Political" age -- and say unto us :“ Are you not acting like 'mere men ?”The worldly -- and the christian laodecians -ought sweat and strive for worldly rights - panting after every article of news emanating from the halls of the american capitol or london’s westminster ~ for they have no KINGDOM ABOVE . . The one whose mind is set on the heavenly Kingdom has forfeited these high places ( lev 26:30, num 33:52 ), when he has enlisted in the King's Army . [ 2 tim 2:4]--- he no longer “warfares” with carnal weaponry [ 2 cor. 6:7, 10:4] --he battles not for rights ...he battles to put himself & his own life on that very Altar --- not the High Places of human political carnality -- but on that Cross to which His Lord bids him come . . . .___by the rivers of political babylon, the Spirit is weeping Today ; the Spirit and the Bride say 'come' ..

broyou know the more i walk with God the more i realize that a great many people are going to be very disappointed on that day of judgement. the word says "for many in that day..."i feel the lack of kingdom-mindedness all around me and a sense that everything as it is now is about to be destroyed and for those who aren't rooted in God, that judgement shall surely sweep them away.

Amen baruch_48 and IRONMAN- I agree 100%“Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” is a Satanic lie. Satan wants every man earth to pursue his own happiness. This is called humanism. America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping.The Great Prostitute, the mother of all whores. Could you write a more accurate description of America today then described in Revelation 18? A Laodecian apostate church and the consumers of the earth. America = religious, political and economic “Babylon the Great” all rolled into one. I know many don’t want to admit it, but is there really anyone left who does not believe that America is the mother of all whores and the Great Prostitute talked about in Revelation?Thanks for the post baruch_48 your assessment of things is right on.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Revelation 18Babylon Is Fallen1After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 3"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality." 4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6"Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7"To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' 8"For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. Lament for Babylon9"And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' 11"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, 13and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives. 14"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. 15"The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; 17for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!' And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?' 19"And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!' 20"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her." 21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22"And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Baruch 48, Preach it Brother! Ironman, I always assumed Babylon was Roman Catholism, and the "harlots" she mothered were the protestant denominations. Not very P.C. but when I hear "Christian" radio and preachers from the pulpit praising republican party line as if it were from God, I get a very uneasy feeling about the "Church".

America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping.America is unique in this aspect? I think you pretty much described mankind here. Seriously...it may be impossible to truly appreciate the evil, the atrocities and the suffering that is really going on in this world because of various political and religous systems. For instance, rent the documentary War Photographer and spend 20 minutes with it's scenes of famine, persecution, war, and hatred from around the planet. Your mind and heart will go numb. is there really anyone left who does not believe that America is the mother of all whores and the Great Prostitute talked about in Revelation?This is a strange message for the American church ...if America is the revival of Babylon in Revelation...then why preach repentance? Can prophecy be broken?Why not pray for the annihilation of America? Wouldn't that be praying according to God's will? If America is the great harlot, we should not weep with those merchants...we should rejoice over her destruction.I'm not "defending" any ideology...just asking some questions.MC

Carefully read Revelation 17 and 18. When you compare the description of the two, are they the same? The Babylon of Revelation 17 is drunken with the blood of the saints. She sits on the beast. If one wants to make a comparison with the revived Roman empire and the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, this Babylon cannot be America. Look at the description of the adornment in 17:4 and compare that with the adornment of the various officials of a certain church, who killed ten of thousands who wanted to know God for themselves throughout the ages. Now look at the Babylon in Revelation 18. It is hard to imagine that the merchants of the world will mourn over Babylon of Rev 17, but they certainly mourn over the Babylon of Revelation 18. Revelation 18 describes a powerful nation that will be destroyed, with who the entire world traded. That is not the Babylon of Revelation 17, which killed the saints.Just consider the possibility. Revelation is not an easy book, but there are things written in it that we can glean from.The bottom line is: REPENT, REPENT, and REPENT. Return to your first love, Jesus Christ!

Jimbobi believe babylon to be the world system as it is, being self-sufficient and not needing God and trying to push Him out of everything. the whore of babylon which rides on the beast with 7 heads and is drunk from the blood of the saints i believe to be the catholic church as per Rev 17the bottom line is this, the hour is late and we have no time to spend arguing about this and that at the expense of repentance. we need to be in prayer, fasting, on our hands and knees confessing our sins before God and repenting, repenting, repenting.

First off I'd like to ammend my previous statement about protestant denominations being the whores of babylon, I meant to say APOSTATE protestant denominations. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water!The Bible describes apostate Israel as a harlot, I believe Revelation describes an apostate church as the harlot.We are told to "Come out of her my people so that you will not participate in her sins.."(Rev 18:4)I believe the beast is the world system and the mark of the beast is to think like the world(a mark on the forehead) and to work for the world (a mark on the hand).

Hans,I agree that the Babylon of Rev 17 and 18 seem like two different entities, and am willing to admit that this very well may be the case. I have always thought this to be the case in the past focusing on the RCC instead of the apostate condition of the Western “christian” church as the Babylon of Rev 17. I think we can all agree that there is a great probability that the Babylon of Rev 18 refers to America and certainly not the RCC. But over the past year I feel that the Lord has been really showing me how these two Babylons are actually one in the same. I can easily see how America could be the revived Roman Empire when you compare the history of both. America mimics the Roman Empire in power, society, might, culture, politics, and economics in many ways. A thorough study of the history of both Empires bears this out. I did a term paper in collage comparing and contrasting the two Empires (American and Roman) the similarities are startling and numerous. But, I was always confused about how the verse “drunk on the blood of the believers” fit in with America. I believe that the Lord gave me the answer. Have you ever wondered - “where are all the prophets today?” Or “Where are the men of God in the churches and in this crisis hour in which we live?” God said more than once “you were set apart (I knew you) in your mothers womb” Is it possible that these men of God and believers were aborted, murdered and their blood was spilled in the clinics of “Babylon The Great”? If this is true then America is truly drunk on the blood of believers - How many millions of the 43,000,000 aborted in America since 1973 would has been believers or prophets, or apostles, or teachers, or saints - only God know for sure - but certainly enough for America to be considered drunk on the blood of believers. Even if only 5% would have been saints or believers that 2.15 million believers murders in the clinics of Babylon (America)I understand Revelation is a symbolic and tricky book to understand and interpret at times, and I understand that I may be wrong about America being the Babylon of Rev 17. (I am as sure as a man can be that America is the Babylon in Rev 18) But we might want to consider the possibility that America is both the Babylon of 17 and 18 all wrapped into one. Especially when we look at the condition of the church and America being drunk on the blood of believes and saints. Give it some thought and prayer.I agree with both Hans and IRONMAN on the following pointsQuote Hans:“The bottom line is: REPENT, REPENT, and REPENT. Return to your first love, Jesus Christ!”Quote IRONMAN:“the bottom line is this, the hour is late and we have no time to spend arguing about this and that at the expense of repentance. we need to be in prayer, fasting, on our hands and knees confessing our sins before God and repenting, repenting, repenting.”

Brother Patrick,I just gave a possible interpretation. There are a couple of them out there. This is what came to me after preparing for Bible studies, but I would certainly not stake my life on it. Your take on this may very well be better when you consider the next paragraph:What I do know is that when I got the word that Babylon would burn in the spring of 2001, I was convinced that it was Rome. When 9/11 occurred, in conjunction with the aircraft, I realized that my interpretation of Babylon in this case was wrong, that it was New York.I agree with Neilgin1, even though I am not as up on American politics as you all are, America is in big trouble, unless the Church can get together, repent, and go before God to plead for mercy.

The thing is, is that we have been lied to, for hundreds of years now about this country.... you'd really have to know how our politics have really played a part from the git-go. Who allowed China to go communist, or helped support Hitler...Annie,Are you serious about this? Could you please share the rationale behind this belief? MC

from dorcas:the Spirit and the Bride say "come" . .Amen. Just for the record, Westminster started drifting away more and more in 1967. We're well on the way to all religions being practised with equal 'right', to Christianity, including secular ones. As you say bro, " a country ‘free to sin’ "I'll have a lot more to say on this thread overall ( about who/what is babylon ... i take a broader view than some are taking here -- yes America and Rome are big engines of the later Full Expression of Babylon ( which Rev 17 & 18 both are describing -- Jer. 50 & other places, as well ) )but we need to get our eyes off "America" or "Rome", solely - as That HarlotI just wanted to address Dorcas' above statement about London "drifting away in 1967" ...To my mind, and to the point of my post .... it's not about very recent drifts ( in America or London ..... the bug-bears we moan about, especially in America --- "taking prayer out of schools" ... "taking God out of the pledge of allegiance" )the word "God" was added into the american pledge only in the Beaver Cleaver Laodecian 1950'sand now we're moaning about it being removed by "the Liberals"we need to realize the Founders were "Liberals" ( of their 18th Century age ) .. and their whole revolution was utterly liberal - again - for its timethey only 'used religious language' as a cultural norm .... but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age (EDIT - The very american revolution was an utterly liberal Smashing of Conservativism of the age )( EDIT AGAIN - to quote Patrick/ChristIsKing - America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping. -- I would just add my thought that all world systems are 'satanic machines' ( this goes to the thread - who or what is the god of this world ) ... & also that Patrick's explanation is a perfect description of what was a Liberal explosion in world human history, as the America machine got "pumping"the biggest lie for evangelical christians to get over is that America was founded on this - NOT JESUS, which is a childish fairytale )To my mind, the point is not that "we're drifting now" .... per seThe point is, the very foundations of both America and Britain --- were "drifts from" THE CROSS ( if europeans could ever to have said to be fixed to the Cross in any age since the first centuries ).. we lament the liberal 'fruit' we now reap ( such as formal lip-service prayer for children being quashed [ read Matt 6:5,6 - which also applies to children, not just public religious hypocrites - which most politicians have always been, since the Founding of all modern nation-states] )( this makes me think of that thread of the children crying for 'revival in America' on the FireOnTheAltar site ... religiously, hypocritically, at that young age )America nor Britain need neither be "publicly Christian" or publicly "Rastafarian"they're irrelevancies as to the inner life of the Realmslet 'all religions be practiced with equal right' in LaodeciaAnd let the True Church rise up, in preparation of Jehovah destroying these false Laodecian forms

but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age This statement begins to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate history, in a way that makes more sense to me. The thread of history is really more like a spiderweb. Ascibing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. The rest of mankind doesn't get off the hook that easy. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!MC

to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate historyGood thought, brother .. and this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )"Progress" is the World's "god" ... and the technological/political/economic innovations ( that largely the American "engine" is behind in this world, today ) ... is building up that Final Tower of babel ... which anti-Christ will be at the pinnacle ofGod's allowing the american revolution to happen as it did - sovereignly - is merely to full His prophecy from His panoramic view of the sweep of history ..... to fulfill the conditions of the End, in which a Strong Humanistic Tower is of necessity to be there - to destroy

this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )A crucified approach to history instead of the triumphalist approach? Perhaps we see eye to eye afterall.I have come to believe, that if we are indeed seeing the last days, then there will be one fundamental way to distinguish the true church from the apsotate. The faithful remnant, even in Babylon, will forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...MC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:Ascribing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~No one on this thread has ascribed ALL THE EVILS OF THIS WORLD to America. (some yes, but not all) This is ascribed to Satan. And Babylon in concept has been around since Babylon, yes, but this is not what I am talking about. We are talking about “The mother of all whores” - “Babylon The Great” that described about in Rev 17 and 18. This has not been around since Babylon, but these Scriptures are making reference to a SPECIFIC country, nation, system, or organization during a SPECIFIC time period. (the end times) Ascribing the characteristics of this specific country, nation, system, or church described in Rev 17 and 18 to America is both Scripturally and intellectually unavoidable. The match is almost perfect.Not trying to come down on you Compton - just trying to clarify what I am talking about. The points you make are good and I agree with them - all the worlds evils ascribed to America is just dumb and it is true the concept and spirit of Babylon has been around since Babylon - it is just not what I am talking about. :-) I am answering the other questions you posed earlier in the thread and should post them soon.