Chip Brogden? Practice Lawlessness; Who? Us? Who is the Father?

Some of the SI members referred to Chip Brogden. I had never heard of Chip Brogden until then. After the thread “Is asking Jesus anything SIN?” I downloaded Hebrews 1, with a fair amount of trepidation I may add, since I felt that I had somehow betrayed My Lord, Jesus Christ in an earlier thread. After being blessed by Hebrews 1, I downloaded Galatians 4. Chip made a very interesting comment about verses 4 and 5: “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” In this lesson, he predicts that most people will just read over this passage and miss the significance of what is here: God has come to live on the inside of us and His law is written on the inside of our heart. We don’t try to obey Him but we are conformed to His image from the inside out…..etc. I predict that he will say the same when he teaches Romans 8:15-17.We are adopted as sons of the Most High God, no longer slaves, but co-heirs with Christ! That is what I was trying to say in: Is asking Jesus anything SIN? Do we really understand the significance of what it means that Christ lives in us? If we did, we would ask the Father in Jesus name. Jesus did NOT come to reconcile us to Himself, but to the Father. This does not take anything away from the Lordship and Kingship and the great I AM from Jesus, but it adds to it. By obeying Jesus we confess to the entire spiritual realm (Eph.3:8-10) that we, as the Church of Jesus Christ, know that we have been redeemed; that the devil has no longer power over us; that we have free access by the Blood of Christ to the Father. Every time we ask Jesus, we deny in effect His Lordship. We deny the magnificent sacrifice on the cross and we tell every principality and power and Satan himself, that we have a better plan. He reconciled us to the Father, not to Himself: 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.We are ministers of reconciliation. How do we do that by NOT going to the Father through Jesus Christ? These are strong words, but that is exactly what we do when we don’t obey Christ: in that day ask me nothing (John 16:23), and, And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46). That is exactly what we do when we ask the Holy Spirit directly for whatever, instead of asking the Father who gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13, Eph.1:17). It doesn’t matter who tells us that it is ok, God’s word doesn’t. My Savior Jesus Christ emptied Himself, so He could take my place on the cross. Can I not at least follow the path He prepared for me to enter the Holy of Holies and come before His and My Father, His and My God, to ask The Father and thereby “confess with my mouth” that I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus, the great I AM, was enough to re-establish my relationship with My Father through My King and also My God?As my dear sister GrannieAnnie once said, we cannot explain God with our little pea brains, and I believe that by obeying All that Jesus taught us, should be good enough for us.Please meditate on this warning from Jesus Himself about people who really were convinced that they knew Him, they even used His name successfully, and ended up missing it all together: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22,23). Iniquity is also translated as lawlessness, it means: transgression of the law. The word of Jesus certainly qualifies for the law, if we don’t obey it we practice lawlessness and He doesn’t know us, because we didn’t accept the fact that we are reconciled to the Father, justified by the Son, sealed by the Spirit.As a closing comment, last week someone posted something to the effect: don’t pray but obey. Please make that: obey AND pray.

I just heard the Hebrews intro yesterday. I thought I'd post the URL.Watchman.net Check out his articles too. Great stuff.Diane

GrannieAnnie said:I'm just venting here and I feel grateful that maybe I'm allowed to 'lose it' on here with y'all.I'm burnt out on what anyone 'thinks'.Amen, Sister, I support your thoughts. Is this not exactly where God would like us all to be - sick and tired of the lukewarm, and instead filled with the fire of God - ie his compassion for mankind?Diane

Hello Beloved It's past five years i am on br.Chip's mailing list from watchman.netThe messages the Lord is giving to the Church these days are wonderful and full of life. One of the best part is that all webcasts are offered free of charge, this is difficult to find in many christian sites. ALL NEED MONEY NOT REPENTANCE.May Christ increase.Blessings i am your brother sam

This post disturbs me. The question: Is asking Jesus anything sin? and the statement: Every time we ask Jesus, we deny in effect His Lordship.I am also alarmed at where a person will end up when these things are lived out as explained. Will you not soon feel like you are gods? Is this not what so many of the health and wealth preachers are saying?Now lets look at what the Bible has to say about asking: Zech. 10:1: Ask rain from the LORD at the time of spring rain.... Matt. 7:7:Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. Matt. 21:22: And all thigs you ask in prayer, believing you shall receive. MArk 11:24: Therfore I say unto you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them and they shall be granted unto you. James 1:5: But if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him. 1John 5:14, 15: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that if we ask anything accoding to his will, he heareth us and we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. Matt. 6: 9-13: Is the Lord's Prayer and in v. 11: Give us this day our daily bread. v. 13: ..lead us not into temptation. The Bible is full of incidents of God's people asking from the Almighty and the Almighty responding to that request. In the NT, in Acts 12 we read where Peter was imprisoned for preaching and this caused the church to have a prayer meeting for Peter in which their prayer was answered in an awesome manner: he was delivered! Asking the Lord, bringing our petitions to Him indicates our total dependence on Him. Can we be pleasing to God in any other way?ginnyrose

Hi Annie,I'm burnt out on what anyone 'thinks'.I am in the same place and say Amen to that too. Thank you for saying what is on your heart.Thank you Dorcas for your response, and all the others. I do continue to ask the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that He will give all of us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him; so that the eyes of our hearts may be enlightened...and we may serve Him, and each other in spirit and in truth.

Every time we ask Jesus, we deny in effect His Lordship.Why should we not petition our Lord? We worship Him as God, we praise Him as God, we give Him thanks as God, why not petition Him as God? Every knee will bow one day and confess Him as Lord, what could be wrong with bowing today and making petition before our Mediator in heaven?In the Old Testament there are several places where saints "call upon the name of the Lord", for example, "Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD."(Gen 13:4). It's interesting that Paul applies this same phrase to Jesus in 1 Corinthians, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:"(1Cor 1:2). Obviously Paul would have known about the significance of that phrase which included prayerful petition, and he applied it to Jesus.In 1 Corinthians 1:9 it says, "faithful is God, through whom ye were called to the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord." The word "fellowship" is the Greek word "koinonia" which is also translated as the word "communion." 1 Corinthians 1:9 says that we are to have an intimate fellowship with Jesus. This communion with Him is a necessary result of our union to Him. In light of this, how can we have fellowship and communion with someone we never talk to? In Christ,Ron

Sister Annie wrote:I knew I was getting burnt out on the words of men, and was finding I only wanted to read 'The' Word ... and that after 30 yr.s of reading every and anything I could get my hands on. Classic books, then good websites, All the good stuff, as they're called ....... but then it was hitting me harder and harder I couldn't hardly find just anything JUST about HIM.1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. If we drink of His water we will thirst for His righteousness. Annie thankyou for your heart spoke words. It is only through the Holy Spirit's gifts of his counseling and the illumination of His word that we can over come the emptiness of man's thoughts.In ChristJeff

Dear Ron,However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8b). Faith is the belief and acceptance of everything that is written in God’s Word being the complete truth.Psalm 27 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.Philippians 26 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.If we confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father, we are accepting the truth about God the Father and God the Son. If we believe that the Lord said to His Son, today I have begotten Thee, we believe the truth about God the Father and God the Son. The Son emptied Himself and took the role of a Servant made in the likeness of man. In that manifestation God to Son hang on the cross, NOT the Father. It was the Father Who said: This is my beloved Son, listen to Him! (Matt. 17:5). When Jesus gave up His spirit, He said: Father into Your hands I commit My spirit (Luke 23:46).Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6). When we ask Jesus, are we going to the Father, especially when Jesus Himself said: And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you (John 16:23)?Why did Jesus come? What did Jesus do? Why did He empty Himself?2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.He came so that we, as forgiven sinners separated from God, would be reconciled to God the Father through God the Son.If we continue to ask Jesus, instead of the Father, don’t we take away from the fullness of Christ’s mission and sacrifice? Do we not “confess” that we don’t recognize the totality of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and thereby take away from His Lordship?When we continue to address Jesus as if He is the Father, we declare that we don’t see clearly Who God is, but declare that Jesus is the Father. If this was so, Jesus would have never asked in the Garden of Gethsemane: O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt (Matth.26:39).Yes, the Father and the Son are ONE. But, we have to obey all of the Scriptures, and we cannot add to it by declaring that the Father is Jesus Christ, even though they are both God.

Yes, the Father and the Son are ONE. But, we have to obey all of the Scriptures, and we cannot add to it by declaring that the Father is Jesus Christ, even though they are both God.Straw man.If we continue to ask Jesus, instead of the Father, don’t we take away from the fullness of Christ’s mission and sacrifice? Do we not “confess” that we don’t recognize the totality of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and thereby take away from His Lordship?This line of reasoning seems odd to me, why should the fact that Jesus humbled Himself and lived as an example for all men who would follow, and then completed the work of redemption, put any limits on our communion with Him as God the Son?When we address "Jehovah" or "God" in prayer, does that not automatically include all three members of the Godhead? Obviously we can pray to the Holy Spirit as well! We pray only to God! The Holy Spirit is God!Obviously we should follow Jesus' example and pray to the Father, but I believe that there are examples in Scripture of praying to Jesus as well. Consider this passage...And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2Co 12:7-9)Paul besought the Lord three times. It could be argued that Lord could refer to the Father, however, Lord is the normal term that refers to Christ in the NT. But what really is important to note in this passage is the contrast of Paul's weakness with the "Power of Christ" (which refers back to Lord, to whom Paul was praying.) "Power of Christ" is a direct reference back to the statement, "MY STRENGTH is perfected in weakness." After Paul prayed to the LORD, this same LORD said, "MY STRENGTH (Christ's power) is perfected in your weakness. The same Greek word "dunamis" is translated as "power" and "strength" in this passage from the KJV.Also, petitions are only a small part of prayer, there is also praise, confession, and thanksgiving. To say we should not pray to Jesus, or talk to Him in any way, means that we should not "thank" Him either.Paul said, And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (1Ti 1:12)How do you suppose Paul did this thanking? Did he pray, "Father, tell Jesus I'm thankful?" No! He thanked and praised Jesus directly!In Christ,Ron

Hi Joshua.How do I change the thread from the Lounge?I have no idea, I would have done it earlier, I am not so fluent on Forums as some of you are.Thank you,

Joshua, GrannieAnnie, and all others in SI,No problem with throwing stones, as long as they are the "huggy" type that kind of make us feel warm and loved.Love you all,

Thank you Ron,How do you suppose Paul did this thanking? Did he pray, "Father, tell Jesus I'm thankful?" No! He thanked and praised Jesus directly! I only said “asking,” not thanking or worshipping. Jesus only told us not to ask Him anything, He didn’t say anything about any other form of prayer or worship.I thank Jesus everyday for dying for me, and I worship Him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the Exalted One with the name above every other name (Psalm 2:12). The apostle Peter ends 2 Peter by worshipping Jesus Christ.But thanking and giving honor to the Father through Jesus was also practiced in the New Testament churches: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world (Rom.8:1)To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27).Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; (Eph.5:20)And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. (Col.3:17).To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (KJV), to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen (NASB). (Jude 25).How many times is it recorded that Paul asked Jesus in the NT? Only once:Consider this passage...And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2Co 12:7-9)Paul in this context – for that is what we have to take into account – the context of the preceding account of “the man in Christ was taken up to the third heaven.” Who is this man? Most scholars agree that Paul is talking about Himself. Why did this happen? But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11,12). Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself. It also was Christ Himself Who told – and I believe allowd it - Paul about the “thorn” in his flesh. Since this is the only time that we see Paul asking Jesus directly, is it not possible that this “asking” took place when He was with Jesus in the third heaven? This is the passage that is often used to justify “asking” Jesus instead of the Father. The other passage is the account of Stephen: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon (God), and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep (Acts 7:59,60). It is evident from the text that Stephen commits his spirit to the Lord Jesus Christ. He doesn’t specify this when he asks the Lord for forgiveness. This passage may be argued back and forth, and I suspect that agreement on this point may never come.I want to rabbit trail with an example from counseling. Please, I don’t do this to talk about myself, but to glorify Jesus Christ. When I counsel a woman who had an abortion, after leading her in prayer for forgiveness from the Father through Jesus Christ, I tell her to give the aborted baby to Jesus, much like the example of Stephen and the invitation from Jesus Himself (Luke 18:15,16). Then I tell her to thank the Father that Jesus died for all sin once for all and that the baby is safe with Jesus. One has to experience the release and the healing that takes place in the life of the counselee when this is done in prayer. Jesus truly came to set the captives free! Thank you Jesus! Thank you Father for sending us Your Son!When one prays Ephesians 1:15-23 and 3:14-21 on a regular basis, something very interesting happens if one also seeks to be changed from darkness to light, i.e., sin no more. Jesus starts to dwell in one’s heart more and more. The power of His Spirit grows within us, providing we don’t quench the Spirit with disobedience.What do you think happens when Jesus Himself by His Spirit starts to lead you to pray? Will He start praying to Himself, or will He as He did when He walked among us, pray to the Father?For me the key Scriptures are: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples (John 15:7,8). For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them (Matt.18:20). Then read 1Pet.1:13-21, this is a recipe for Holy Prayer to God the Father at the revelation of Jesus Christ.A number of posts have commented on the fact that corporate prayer doesn’t seem to change much. I agree with that 100 percent. If we really look at what has happened to the Church that Jesus started and what we have now, some of us must agree that we as the Church, missed the boat. Is it not possible that our prayers are a large part of that? I believe it is, for that is what the Lord is laying on my heart.