Fact: Jesus is God and he died and rose again on the 3rd DayWe say God did not cease to exist for 3 days, so how can this be explained? Jesus fully Man and fully God, but if he died and God was still in heaven, then wouldn't that make Jesus just a part of God and not fully God, or not God at all?How can this be best explained?
Hi Samuel7,What is death?
The end of Life
Hi Samuel7,Understanding the biblical definition of death is essential to understanding your question. Error begets error. We must establish the meanings of the terms you are using.ThanatosIn scripture death, the outworking of THE Death does not generally denote annhilation, but seperation. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)The Sin entered and the Death entered with it. This is death depicted as an enemy that entered the race of men along with Sin. It is the last enemy that shall be destroyed eschatologically.Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Revelation 2:10)This is physical death.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (2:11)This is eternal death.When the soul and spirit seperate from the body this is death. When the soul is eternally seperated from God this is the second death. There is no such thing biblically as human beings achieving any state through death that is unconscious; nor do they in any way cease to exist. They are merely disembodied until the resurrection. I'll pause for comments...
Robert,Yes, I agree with you about understanding Biblical definitions.Yes, Sin entered and Death with it. I understand Physical death = soul and spirit separate from bodyEternal death = soul eternally separated from GodSo Jesus’ death was His soul and spirit separated from his earthly body and so his soul and spirit went were? And at this time (Jesus death) was not God the Father in heaven who is made up of soul and spirit as well in heaven? So are there two souls and spirits? I am sincerely trying to understand this. I know Gods ways are far above ours, yet there must be an answer to these questions.
Hi Samuel7,And at this time (Jesus death) was not God the Father in heaven who is made up of soul and spirit as well in heaven? So are there two souls and spirits?When we refer to God we are essentially speaking of the substance (deity) revealed in three persons. You will find a brief summary of the Trinity here. A well known Charismatic minister once sailed into these waters and earned himself a heap of grief. ;-) We will avoid the error of assuming that both the Holy Spirit and the Father were spirit, soul, and body. The issue at hand is that of the essence of God in terms of the Trinity and more excellently the "hypostatic union." For a most recent Sermonindex discussion of some of the issues concerning the Trinity go to History of the Trinity. God Bless,-Robert
Hi Samuel,Your questions seem easy enough.After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free, to preach to them what HE had just done, and to take the Keys from Satan.All this is found in your Bible.He took on the same form that we have as born again Christians .... soooooooooo, HE could live out the life that we now "can", if we choose to.The "Spirit" of the man is where God dwells and the same went for Christ in the flesh.The "soul" of a man, is "himself"... his personality, his free-will center, his ego, etc..Jesus in the flesh had, body, soul and spirit ... but without the sin-nature of Adam, as we are born with. He was "the last Adam".So He was 100% God and 100% man.If HE had no free-will, HE would have never been "tempted in all manner such as we".He emptied Himself, to take the form of what we would become, as "an example onto us".... on how life should be lived.Our souls must learn to come under the authority of the Spirit/spirit ... where HE dwells... just as HE was obedient to The Father, while in the flesh.He spent His earthly ministry, showing us how to live."He learned obedience by what He suffered"., Etc.When His Body was killed, He for those three days, accomplished what was mentioned above.Where the Saints of old 'waited' in Abrahams bosom, He took them up in His train to Heaven.When we die, then soul and spirit merge.As did HIS. So at no time did HE EVER cease to be GOD.I think it is so important to not see the Trinity as something like a Totum-pole.As in, one part of the Triune Godhead "above" another. That's more like "modelism" or something.They three are ONE .... 100% Equal God.Only when Jesus was in the flesh, did HE become like man and made Himself subject to The Father... to fulfill prophecy and to show 'us' how to function as "sons of God".They are ONE GOD. No totum pole.He was not the "Son" prior to being conceived in Mary .... and when He returns, He will not be what He was when on earth.We will see HIM as HE is .... ONE GOD again.Extra Cool. Only God's Word can prove this out and not pushing "my" thread here, because I did not want to "write my own words in it" ... But study the first post slowly on "Who is JESUS ?" and you'll see just how ONE the three IS.Not Unitarian Doctrine - Not Oneness Doctrine, but more ONE then many Trinitarians realise.And once it's really realised, I think we can't help but fall on our knees and marvel in worship of how GREAT HE IS.Hope this helps and God Bless.
After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free, to preach to them what HE had just done, and to take the Keys from Satan.All this is found in your Bible.Not unless 'your Bible' is annotated by Scofield, Thompson or Dake'. ;-)
Hia Ron, I think you know this belief goes way back further than even Scoffield, Dakes, or Thompson (none of which do I use), if just the Apostles Creed alone probably came about in 390 A.D.We could go on with why the Church may split on this, but I'll just give some of the Scriptures that may have caused those who hold to this belief to go with it.If all one had is an e-sword, they'd see how the Commentators go back and forth on all of these verses. And Church History on this debate goes way back farther than 390 A.D.Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not 'left' in hell {hades}, neither his flesh did see corruption.Paradise - In the Jewish theology, the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection; and therefore equivalent to Abraham's bosom (Luk_16:22, Luk_16:23). (Thayer's and Vincent's, Luke 23:43) "In later Jewish usage and in the NT, paradeisos is used for the abode of the blessed after death. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, has been thought to be the region of the blessed in Hades although it was not specifically called by that name (Luke 16:23)." (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1102"Hades is technically the unseen world, the Hebrew Sheol, the land of the departed, that is death." (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament)Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. {Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. }Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Keil & Delizsch on Ps 68:18 ~ "(Note: Just so Hölemann in the second division of his Bibelstudien (1861); whereas to Hormann (Schriftbeweis, ii. 482ff.) the New Testament application of the citation from the Psalm is differently brought about, because he refers neither ηχμαλώτευσεν αιχμαλωσίαν nor κατέβη εις τὰ κατώτερα μέρη της γης to the descent of the Lord into Hades.)The apostle is the more warranted in this interpretation, since Elohim in what follows is celebrated as the Lord who also brings out of death. This praise in the historical fulfilment applies to Him, who, as Theodoret observes on Psa_68:21, has opened up the prison-house of death, which for us had no exit, and burst the brazen doors, and broken asunder the iron bolts, (Note: Just so that portion of the Gospel of Nicodemus that treats of Christ's descent into Hades; vis. Tischendorf, Evangelia Apocryph. (1853), p. 307.) viz., to Jesus Christ, who now has the keys of Death and of Hades." [end quote]1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prisonOne thing is for sure... that after you read enough of the old commentaries on this verse from Peter, you see the Reformers fear of the RCC using this verse to qualify the belief in Purgatory. About the Keys. They of course are only symbolic of authority. Christ had taken or stripped all authority from Satan when He made a open show of triumph over him. Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. He received the Keys/'Authority' by defeating Satan.Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. {triumphal procession}1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...... ~~~Well, they know now ... so it wouldn't be surprising if Christ made his Spectacular appearance in Hades, to give them "what for". Doesn't cause my faith to waver any and not worth a 2000 yr. debate to cause a split over.When scholars for 1000's of years debate an issue ... well then, I sure am not going to debate this with you my friend. :-DI think, maybe Samuel7 would just appreciate if you'd answer his question with 'your' opinion, Yah ? Big Time Shalom to all !
Eternally, Christ was, is, and will be 100% God, I think we are all agreed on this.Likewise, if we consider it for a moment, we will agree that our own "consciousness" is both spatial and temporal - that is, we only are only "conscious" in the present, and only concious in one location in the universe. We are sort of a pinhead moving through time and space - that is the nature of creation. It has a beginning, an end, and space.Likewise, if we consider it for a moment, we will recognize that God's consciousness cannot be temporal or spatial - because these are associated with creation - and God existed in three persons "before" there ever was a creation - that is, our understanding of God is absolutely incorrect if it binds God to the laws/rules/expectations of creation. God is set apart from creation - that is, He is Holy, Holy, Holy.That is significant because the moment we begin to consider a temporal effect upon a transcendant God, everything we know about how things are supposed to work must - by definition - go out the window.In this case we might be inclined to limit Christ's death to his physical manifestation - as though the 100% man aspect of Christ died, but the 100% God aspect of Christ was unscathed. I think that is the sort of deduction one comes to if forget that God is not bound by the laws of His creation. In the strength of that sort of reasoning we may well ask what happened to Christ during those three days?But if we see creation as being seperate from God - as it is in truth - and we think of death as the moment we are separated from our earthly coil (that is our temporal/locational existence) such that we enter into God's eternity, where time does not exist - then we can imagine that though I die tonight and you die five years from now - we meet simultaneously in eternity - no "waiting" because waiting is temporal and there is no time outside of this creation.If Christ's death therefore were only physcial, the answer would be that His 'spirit' entered into eternity, and whether we experienced his loss for one second or billions of years his perspective would remain unchanged - he doesn't go to a "where" or a "when" but into eternity.All speculation upon the nature of the Trinity is nigh vulgar really - so I am careful here. If physical death could satisfy the eternal penalty for sin - we wouldn't need a sinless sacrifice. Think that through.Our own physical death does not satisfy God's wrath because sin engenders an eternal debt, and our physical death is insufficient currency for that debt. Christ had to be sinless in order that to offer himself for others - had he sinned his own eternal life would have been forfeit just as ours is. His sinlessness meant that he personally had no sin debt - such that he was able to offer his own eternal soul as payment for our sins.God accepted his soul, but gave him this promise - that if He laid it down, He would be able to take it up again.This happened in eternity and not in our timeline, though all of creation experienced the physical side of this amazing transaction at calvary, nevertheless the spiritual (and effective) component of this transaction took place (takes place? will take place?) in eternity.The original question presumes a creation-centered perspective, but the answer cannot be creation centered - it has to be centered in eternity because God is not a created being and therefore the boundaries that limit us do not limit God.I have no trouble believing that Jesus Christ died as both a man and as God Almighty. But when I say that I don't presume that God has died in a way that agrees with my creation centered reality. I don't think of it as if one third of the trinity died for three days - that sort of personification of the trinity is inseparably associated with a creation-o-centric view of God. God is Spirit, and we don't really know the rules when it comes to spiritual reality. Yes, in our creation centered reality Christ's body was "dead" for three days, but who can say how that looked in eternity? I am afraid that it is not a very satisfying answer - but alas, the hidden things belong to God, and I am not one to speculate about things that are unknowable.Dan/\\/\\/\\
GrannieAnnie wrote:...just the Apostles Creed alone probably came about in 390 A.D....The creed began to circulate around 215 A.D. - in this form:“I believe in God The Father AlmightyAnd in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord; Who was by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary; under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, and buried. The third day he rose from the dead; He ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The Holy Church; The forgiveness of sins; The resurrection of the body;Over the next 500 years or so the various additions to this creed were added. The part about descending into hell started off in 390 as "descended into the grave", but was removed almost immediately and was only reintroduced again three hundred years or so later - and in the final morph - a result of a poor translation - it was reintroduced into the creed as "descended into hell"The verses cited to defend this doctrine, when examined in context do nothing to defend, or even suggest this particular teaching.Dan/\\/\\/\\
OK. I'll be more specific...After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free,the notion that Christ descended into Hades to break its chains and set the captives free is part of the 'ransom to devil theory' and was also known as 'the harrowing of hell'; it reappears fairly frequently but is usually rejected by conservative evangelicals. Christ's victory over Satan took place on the cross not in Hades. to preach to them what HE had just donemy view is that Christ's proclamation was not evangelical but the proclamation of victory over his enemies. The word used for preached is not 'evangelise' but rather 'proclaim',and to take the Keys from Satan.Who says Satan was ever in charge of Hades? Ultimately he will be the chief prisoner in Hell, but there is no biblical evidence, so far as I know, to sugggest that he was ever in charge of Hades.
I'll just stick whatever answers of mine in boldby philologos on 2005/9/28 17:57:30OK. I'll be more specific...Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free,--------------------------------------------------------------------------------the notion that Christ descended into Hades to break its chains and set the captives free is part of the 'ransom to devil theory' and was also known as 'the harrowing of hell'; it reappears fairly frequently but is usually rejected by conservative evangelicals. Christ's victory over Satan took place on the cross not in Hades. I do believe that Christ's Victory over Satan took place on the cross and not in HadesQuote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------to preach to them what HE had just done--------------------------------------------------------------------------------my view is that Christ's proclamation was not evangelical but the proclamation of victory over his enemies. The word used for preached is not 'evangelise' but rather 'proclaim',I never once said for evangelical purposes.You just said "Christ's Proclamation" ... where did He give this "Proclamation" ?Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------and to take the Keys from Satan.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Who says Satan was ever in charge of Hades? Ultimately he will be the chief prisoner in Hell, but there is no biblical evidence, so far as I know, to sugggest that he was ever in charge of Hades.Again, I didn't say Satan was in "charge" of Hades.When in the Verse ~ Col 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" ... I spoke of the Authority, as God had put it in the O.T. that He would put Christ's enemies "under his feet, as a footstool." A lot went on at Calvary, the "bruising of the heel and the crushing of satan's head".Whatever you'd like to strain at, you'd have to be angelic in nature and there in the unseen world at the time of Christ's death to tell me all that went on in Heaven, earth, and Below, for me to give your views any more credence than almost 2000 of controversy of what took place.Samuel7 had a question. I gave it my best understanding ......... Why don't you give him your best. :-P
Hi Dann,I gave this a lot of research, as far as all the whens, and who believes what, and I will only say this last time, get a stack of commentaries, from way back until today, and you will see this point debated among the best of them.Like "what language did Matthew first write his Gospel in ?" type arguments again.When you take Samuel7's question and answer it yourself, then I think it would be helpful possibly to all of us.But if your only thing is space/time etc. etc., as in your first post on this thread ... I'm not sure that is the language that Jesus or Paul would have us speak to people in, who we don't know.We are to answer one another in Love first and then in Koine language. Plain and simple like, as they say down south here.God does not need human brains .... He wants us to speak to other's questions as simpley and 'Biblically' as possible.His Word gives Life ... not anything else.The Apostles waited those many days, before Christ Resurrected and showed Himself to them ... He did not come back and say, "Well, listen fellas ... to you it 'seemed like' 3 days or so, but in My space-time .......... "This thread was started by Samuel7.If you believe I answered him incorrectly .... please do Samuel7 the justice he deserves and answer him Scripturally. Thank you.Annie
Dann. Samuel7's question regarded aspects of the Trinity ...You said .... Quote: "All speculation upon the nature of the Trinity is nigh vulgar really - so I am careful here."But then proceded to give a lengthy answer, and with a lack of Scripture ... which is our only source of truth.What I find "nigh vulgar", is when others do not use Scripture to describe Christ and when they split hairs on mute points, and become heady and high minded, rather than speak to the average person or Christian.We do not need to "spectulate" upon the Trinity.God's Word is plain and a child could understand ... and if we say that it's not so, then we rob ourselves of the most Awesome Revelation of Who Christ/God is.That is the only time and reason that my dander is raised.... when other's are robbed of "the simplicity that is in Christ". And robbed is the only word that would suit this thread so far.My 'first paragragh' may have been controversial and has been for almost 2000 yr.s as I stated in my first answer to Philo-Ron, and I did say on page one that this controvery 'has' gone on even before 390 AD ,,, as your post above strains over .... but my gripe now, over the gripes of both you and Philo, is Where is either of your Scriptural answers to the thread's question and why would you both rather split hairs, to no one's benefit, then to see what God would say to Samuel ?To me that is "nigh vulgar really".Our "intellects" are what God laughs at.Our petty hair-splitting makes Him nauseous.Our Athens style debates turns Him away.If someone preaches blatant heresy, then by all means, I also would jump in there .... but I haven't seen that on this thread .... and feel this thread has done nothing to magnify the Triune Godhead that Samuel needed answers about.We 'can' glorify the Trinity by Scripture alone.
Annie - Thanks for your thoughts.The question asked by Samuel7 can be answered by quoting a single bible verse. "God is Holy! Holy! Holy!"Recall, that the word Holy means "set apart" - that is, God is set apart from or completely alien to creation (the universe, time, space, people, angelic beings, etc.) The thrifold reference is the Semetic equivalent to writing the word ten feet tall in bold face and underlining it 20 times. Isaiah was trying to say something that we do well to heed.God is Holy.That is the 'biblical' answer. The answer I gave to Samuel7 was an expansion of that simple answer, that is, I showed that God was not limited to the rules of creation (because He is HOLY HOLY HOLY!)It is one thing to say God is not like creation - and it is another thing to chart out just how utterly foreign God is from our concept of time and space. God transcends both, and we must not, we dare not put God in a box such that he is bound by time as though He were merely a creature and not the Creator.If you find my explanation lacking, I would not be offended if you would review it thoroughly and perhaps even suggest a few scriptures to me to help me demonstrate its biblicity.Muchly appreciated. :-) Dan/\\/\\/\\
Hi Dan,I only have one question. Where's Samuel7 ? You said, """"The question asked by Samuel7 can be answered by quoting a single bible verse. "God is Holy! Holy! Holy!""""I'm cool with that, I've just been wondering if 'any' of our answers have satisfied our thread starter.HEY SAMUEL ... WHERE ARE YOU ?Guess that's really what I've been wondering for a few days now. Oh, and I also liked this part of your answer ... """I showed that God was not limited to the rules of creation""" That expression of "putting God in a box", always cracks me up. I'd like to see somebody try it someday. :-? I reckon we'll just have to wait & see if Samuel will come back. I hope so.His Peace to you.Annie
Sorry I have not responded in days, I have been sick. I have been thinking and researching several of your comments.God is the Creator, HOLY! A good way of seeing the answer to this thread.I will comment more later...Samuel7
We say God did not cease to exist for 3 days, so how can this be explained? The Lord Jesus died as a Man. Philippians tells us that though He existed in the form of God... He humbled Himself taking on the form of a Man and became obedient unto death...In INcarnation, The Eternal Uncreated God put on something New. that is Created Humanity. HIs divine nature is not subject to death but His created humanity was subject to death.Christ died as a Man. He died in his human flesh, not in His Divine Nature which is eternal and not subject to death. Scritpure affirms that Christ decended into Hades, that is into Paradise (This day you shall be with Me in Paradise).IN Christ's death the shell of HIs humanity was broken and like the grain of wheat which falls into the earth and dies, so Christ died in HIs humanity. As the "death of the wheat releases the life in the core to sprout up bearing fruit, so Christ's death released the Divine Life within Him and through this Eternal Divine Life He was resurrected and glorified in His humanity. Christ was God and Man, IN becomming Man He did not cease to be God. And in death He as God did not die in HIs divinity but only in His humanity. Only that humanity which He put on in incarnation died. God doesn't die. God is LIfe and God is Eternal. But God as a Man can die as a Man and still be God.GraftedBranch
We have to understand that Christ has dual natures. As the Eternal God He is omnicient, immutable, eternal and possesses all the attributes of God. IN becomming man he did not cease to be God. But in taking on and entering into His Creation, He became in this created humanity subject to all the things of the creature. That is He was mutable, changable (He grew in wisdom and knowlege) He was subject to hunger, to cold, to pain, and to everything the creature is subject to, even death.Christ as Man lived a genuine human life. It was not the appearance of human life, He was the Last Adam. He was the Last Man of the Old Creation. And in this Old Creation he died an all inclusive and redemptive death. It was His Divinity that gave His human blood the efficacy to redeem us all.But HIs humanity was subject to death and in this Created Humanity He died. But by the "Power of and Endless LIfe" He rose from the dead. HIs Divine immutable LIfe permeated His dead created humanity, resurrecting it, glorifying it and bringing into the Divine Sonship (Romans 1:3)As a Man He was then exalted and ascended and enthroned as Lord of All. A position He already held as God but one He now possessed as glorified Man (John 17:5).Christ is the God/Man, fully God and fully Man forever united in One Person. He is the Mingling of the Eternal God with His created humanity bringing Divinity into humanity in incarntion and humanity into Divinity in resurrection(John 14:20), uniting Man with God and God with Man for eternity.Graftedbranch
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