The New Covenant and Abraham

"and mabye this needs to be another forum but: Was the new convenant in effect in Abraham and others that knew of Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in them?" Greg Gordon.I often find that a useful way of identifying a concept is to identify its 'opposite'. So what is the 'opposite' to New Covenant? The expression is always used comparitively. You can't have a 'New' covenant without having an earlier covenant. Every time we use the phrase we should remind outselves that it means 'New' in comparison to an earlier or 'Old' covenant.The earlier covenant is mind is the 'Sinaitic Covenant'. It is important to stress that the New Covenant is 'New' in comparison to the Sinaitic Covenant. Now I know I shall get some folks around my neck for this, but the New Covenant is a Replacement Covenant! But there were covenants earlier than Sinai. Abraham was never under the Sinaitic Covenant, so in that sense neither the 'Old Covenant' nor the 'New Covenant' really relate to him. It is as thought someone from your side of the Atlantic were to ask me "Are you from Canada or the USA?" The question is not relevant to me.Your question includes a reference to 'Abraham and others that knew of Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in them?' This deserves a comment or two but I will await some reactions before continuing... that's how debates are supposed to work. :-D

Abraham was never under the Sinaitic Covenant, so in that sense neither the 'Old Covenant' nor the 'New Covenant' really relate to him. I believe that to some extent the covenant made with Abraham relates to the New covenant. It included the promise of all families of the earth being blessed in Abraham's Seed. To us, of gentile extraction its not really a new covenant because before we were "strangers from the covenants of promise" for us it is a first, for the people of Israel who believed it was new. The tree that we were grafted into has its roots in Abraham I beieve, not in Siani. I agree very much with a comment in a differnt thread that the 10 commandments were made with the physical descendants of Moses. God of course, has always had a moral standard, we see Joeseph centuries before the law fleeing from Potiphar's wife. Not because it was against the 10 commandments but because it was evil in the sight of the Lord. I think that the folowing quote from the Galatian letter explains somthing of the realationship between the promise mde to Abraham, the laws given to moses, and the covenant which we live in.Gal 3:14-19 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The tree that we were grafted into has its roots in Abraham I beieve, not in Siani.

Maybe both?

Didn't Jesus say that he was not come to do away with the old convenant?No, He didn't. What He said was Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil..He did fulfil the law and the prophets, but then what?Here are a couple of key scriptures:Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19This tells us 2 vital things about the law1. it was in addition to something earlier. it was added 2. it was only ever intended to be temporary until the Seed should come to whom the promise was madeand the second quotation: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.This tells us that the covenant of the law and the Aaronic priesthood was a unit, and that now that the priesthood has changed there is, of necessity a change also of the law. Heb 7:12and a thirdAbove when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb 10:8,9this last quotation tells us very clearly that they could not co-exist. It was necessary to take away the Sinai Covenant/Law so that the second (New Covenant) could be established.

>If its an everlasting covenant then will it pass away?In fact, lots of 'everlasting' things have already passed away. Here is a typical example:Ex 27:20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. {to burn: Heb. to ascend up}21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.this for ever is your same word 'everlastingly'.this is the OnlineBible definition of the OT word:"05769 ‘owlam o-lawm’ or ‘olam o-lawm’ from 05956; TWOT-1631a; n m AV-ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity"The word really means 'age-enduring' and without getting into bacon-slicer dispensationalism we have to recognise that the scriptures do speak of 'ages', plural.

Genesis 15:7 (kjv) - And I will establish my convenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.a second point arising from Greg's earlier post. This original thread referred to Abraham and the New Covenant. What I tried to do in my earliest post was to distinguish between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Sinai Covenant. I say 'distinguish' rather than 'separate'. There are many different ways of regarding the relationship between distinguishable things (this begins to sound like the thread on Trinity) but it is important 'not to confound the persons' or in this context it is important 'not to confound the covenants'.According to Galatians 4:17 the 'law' came 430 later than the promise, and as we have observed was 'added' and only 'until' the seed should come to whom the promise was made. A few verses earlier Galatians tells us that 'the seed.. is Christ' and at the end of the chapter it tells us that if we are Christ's, then we are Abraham's seed. There is an interesting 'if-then' statement here which should interest the programmer boffins among our readership. Also, according to Galatians 4:29 'if Christ's - then heirs according to the promise. This is an important line in Galatians. By putting us into Christ God has made us Abraham's seed and (consequently?) heirs according to the promise. This has implications that may generate yet another thread; 'whose is the land'? (dare we explore this one?)but lets stick with Abraham. The promises given to Abraham were 'everlasting' and perhaps unconditional? But the promises given to the nation of Israel at Sinai were highly 'conditional'. Another classic 'if-then' statement..Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.time for a pause I think,...to be continued

The power of the covenant that God made with Abraham is this: And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." Genesis 17:7 The power of the promise of God to be God to Abraham and all his descendants after him, is the working of the New Covenant. The power of the covenant between God and man comes through the working of the Holy Spirit. All of those who are born of God are His children. Man is justified by the law of faith, which comes by the hearing of the word of God. The word "word" is translated from the Greek word rhema. Logos is the written word, rhema is the spoken word. So thus our faith comes from God by hearing Him speak to us. Only those who are born of the Spirit can know the attributes of God. A natural man can not.For what purpose did the priestly order of Melchizedec serve prior to the incarnation of Christ?As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love.

your quote: For what purpose did the priestly order of Melchizedec serve prior to the incarnation of Christ?We are not told what purpose it served to the people of Salem where Melchizedek was king and priest of the Most High God, but genuine priesthood is always mediatorial. The true priest is a living link between God and man. However, the record of Melchizedek serves us all in another way in that he is the only king-priest mentioned in scripture. For the whole period of the law priests and kings were clearly differentiated. Kings came from Judah, Priests from Levi. When Uzziah tried to cross the line he became leprous. For 1000 years from Abraham to David there is no further reference to Melchezek, and then suddently a promise of a priest not of the Aaronic order comes through the prophet David. This Messianic psalm [Psalm 110] predicts that Christ's priesthood will not be of the Aaronic variety but of Melchizedek's i.e. a priest-king. There is no further mention of Melchizedek for a further 1000 years and then suddenly he comes into the story again in Hebrews where Christ is revealed as the fulfillment of David's prophecy. Christ's priesthood combines kingship and priesthood. Melchizedek is referred to as priest of the most High God. In Hebrews Christ is declared to be the HIGHpriest according to the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was the pattern for king-priest but Christ is the reality.Zechariah also prophesied of a 'priest upon a throne' [Zech 6:13] Aaronic priests did not have thrones. I can't help but wonder what Zechariah made of his own prophecy. :-P Christ now reigns as a priest and the throne of David has become a throne of grace. All His kingly authority is exercised in mediation between God and man. Coming to Him we now find mercy and grace to help in time of need.

The purpose for the heavenly priesthood is in the word of God. The writer to the Hebrews alludes to the fact that there is much to be understood, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest, "according to the order of Melchizedek," of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." Hebrews 5:9-11. The evidence of the heavenly priesthood of Melchizedek has always been in existences. There are many hard things to explain. What hindered the Hebrews also hinders us today. We like the Hebrews are dull of hearing. As I stated in my previous post, we are justified by the law of faith, (Romans 3:27-28) and faith comes by hearing the word of God. (Romans 10:17) As we read the Scriptures and obey the commands of our High Priest, the Holy Spirit teaches us to know God. Also in Hebrews 7:3, Melchizedek "remains a priest continually. This means His priesthood is everlasting. So the covenant that God made with Abraham and his descendants after him is an everlasting covenant. All those who lived by the law of faith entered into the same covenant that God made with Abraham. I will be God to you and you will be my people. As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love...

The Covenant referred as the Old Covenant was once a new covenant. It was the covenant entered into between God and the nation of Israel in Exodus 19-24. According to Galatians 'it was added' to the Promise given to Abraham 'because of transgressions' and was only ever intended to be temporary 'til the Seed should come'.There is a difference between the Sinai Covenant and the Covenants which preceded it. In reference to divorce and marriage Jesus quoted the Sinai Covenant and then said it was due to the 'hardness of men's hearts' but 'it was not so from the beginning'. This shows clearly that conditions during the Sinai Covenant were different to an earlier code. It also shows that we need to be cautious in applying Sinai codes to non-Sinai conditions. What I mean is that the Sinai Covenant was fulfilled in Christ and is no longer operable. This, in turn, means that all the promises from Exodus 24 to Acts 1 need to be interpreted rather than applied literally. e.g. 'I will heal your land' was a specific promise to Israel under the terms of the Sinai Covenant which was always related to ‘the land’. We do well, I think, to remember that 'the nation' and the 'congregation of Israel' are synonymous terms in the Old Testament. In other words there was no distinction between ‘church and state’. In the OT 'congregation’ is often ‘qahal’ and was translated ‘ecclesia’ in the Septuagint. When Jesus addressed a group of men who already regarded themselves as ‘the congregation/ecclesia of Israel’ it must have been mind-blowing to hear Him say ‘upon this rock will I build my ecclesia’. The Jews of His day knew well the implications of His sayings. Their comment in John 9:28 to the blind man was very telling “thou art his disciple; but we are Moses’ disciples”. The Sinai Covenant is now no more; past its ‘sell-by date’. In the UK houses often have ‘restrictive covenants’ e.g. for the first 5 years after building you can’t park a caravan or keep chickens in the yard, but when the time period is ended the covenants no longer apply. All this is to underline that the New Covenant has replaced the Sinai Covenant. I will batten down the hatches now and wait for the storm… Then we can look at the relationship of the New Covenant to God’s promises and covenant with Abraham.

JeffMarshalek on 2003/12/3 wrote All those who lived by the law of faith entered into the same covenant that God made with Abraham. I will be God to you and you will be my people. JeffIt is very important to understand that God justified Abraham before He entered into covenant with him. We must distinguish between a promise and a covenant. A promise is a one-off transaction, a covenant is a life-long relationship. God entered in a covenant with Abraham [Gen 15:18] after he had been justified by faith [Gen 15:6]

You are absolutely correct. God did declare Abraham righteous before He made a covenant with him. In addition, God commanded Abram,"Get out of your country, from your family and from your father's house, to a land I will show you..." Genesis 12:1-3 You see it is God who speaks! We are given the choice to obey or rebel. We learn from Scripture that Abram believed. In other words, he obeyed. So later, in Genesis 15:6, Abram has walked with the Lord. He has seen that as God had promised to bless those who bless Abram and to curse those who curse Abram, so it has come to pass. God is faithful. Abram has been blessed by Melchizedek, and shared in His bread and wine. By the law of faith, we enter into the promise of the freewoman. (Galatians 4:24) What must be understood in the way of covenants is this. All covenants or promises originate with the Creator. The will of God for man is determined in Genesis 3:15. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed." God declared with and oath that those who follow satan are condemned by His righteousness, and those who obey and follow Jesus are restored to the Jerusalem which is above. The Trinity has always existed, Jesus is the same always. He lives to make intercession for the saint.Amen

The Holiest of All by Andrew Murray, pg 36"It is of the utmost consequence for our spiritual life that we should rightly understand these two stages of God's dealing with man. In two way, not in one; not in more than two; in two ways has God spoken. They indicate what, in substance , is God's way with every Christian. There is, after his conversion, a time of preparation and testing, to see whether he willingly and heatily sacrifices all for the full blessing. If in this stage he perservers in earnest effort and striving, he will be brought to learn the two lessons the Old Testament was meant to teach. He will become more deeply conscious of his own impotence, and the strong desire will be awakened after a better life, to be found in the full revelation of Christ as able to save completely. When those two lessons are learned, the lesson of despair of self and hope in God alone, the soul is prepared, if it will yield itself in faith to the leading of the Holy Spirit, to enter truly into the New Testament life within the veil, in the very Holiest of All, as it is set forth in this Epistle." (The book of Hebrews)The law given on Mount Sinai was given to a nation. The law of God applies to all who will ever live on this earth. All men are condemned by the law. It is spiritual, man is carnal. God's provision for man to receive His righteousness is through Jesus Christ. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." John 1:9See also Job 33:13-30As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love

God is the same always. This precept is often quoted by many but few realize how this attribute of God permeates the entire Holy Scripture. In Psalm 40:6-8, and again quoted in Hebrews 10:7, "Then I said, Behold, I have come- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-to do Your will, O God." The entire revelation of God to us in the written word speaks of Jesus doing the will of His Father. We often talk about man being predestined from the beginning of time, yet we seldom ascribe this same attribute to the Trinity. Remember, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him ALL THINGS WERE CREATED that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM." Colossians 1:15-16. Has anyone who lived before us or will live after us not been created and touched by Jesus? Has the Seed not worked in those who came before His incarnation as He has worked in us after His ascending back to the right hand side of His Father? Are not those who are born again of the Spirit of God, in all generations, from Abel to the end of God's plan?I once was lost, and when God called again and again, I responded. Yet as a new believer, I was dull of hearing. I questioned those who taught, what is faith. How do I know? No one could answer. I struggled for 3 years, asking how is one saved? God sent a young preacher to tell me, "If the Bible says it so, I believe it." I gave up that day, I believed Romans chapter 3. Since that day God continues to increase and I continue to decrease. I hear His voice through out the Holy Scriptures, saying just believe what I am saying to you. Trust in Me. The result is that I die alittle bit more day by day to my carnal ways. I am being trained to look to Him who is the author and finisher of my faith. I say this all because once I heard Him speak through the Scriptures I knew where faith came. And once I knew where faith came from, I also understood in a moment, that all who ever lived by that same faith, heard the same voice. This is how one knows that God is the same always.

my quote: All this is to underline that the New Covenant has replaced the Sinai Covenant. I will batten down the hatches now and wait for the storm… Then we can look at the relationship of the New Covenant to God’s promises and covenant with Abraham.Well, the storm never arrived. It was that word 'replaced' that I thought might start it off. Still, I have no complaints.The contrasts and comparisons between the Old (Sinai) and the New are varied and comprehensive. Moses prophesied of Christ. This was a key feature in early Christian thought but is seldom mentioned now. [Acts 3:22, 7:37] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; [Deuteronomy 18:15] This can be a valuable line of thought; the parallels between Moses and Christ. 1. It begins with the attempt to destroy God's deliverer with a pre-emptive stike; Both Pharoah and Herod targetting baby boys.2. It continues in many aspects through the whole idea of mediation. Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant; Christ is the mediator of the New. [Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24] A mediator is the living link between God and man.3. The Old Covenant people were 'baptised into Moses'[1 Cor 10:2]; the New Covenant people are 'baptised in Christ's body'[1 Cor 12:13]. 4. the Rabbi's saw where all this was leading only too plainly; thou art his disciple, but we are Moses' disciples. [John 9:28]5. The establishing of the Old Covenant in Ex 19-24 is a thrilling preparation for the New, and the parallels are powerful. [Ex 24:8 cf Lk 22:20] The Jews believe that Sinai synchronised with Pentecost, so to them Pentecost was a focus on the beginning of the Covenant and the receiving of the law.6. Moses ascends to receive the commandments and a cloud hides him from sight; so does Christ [Ex 24:15 cf Acts 1:9]But it is the nature of the Covenants which is an amazing contrast. The Sinai Covenant is external; their baptism is external, the law is written in stone, blood is sprinkled, water is applied, God is with His people, the Spirit's anointings come upon the people. Holiness too is external cleansing. It is all very wonderful but none of it penetrates, it is all external. By contrast the New Covenant is internal, our baptism is in Spirit, the law is written in the heart, we drink His blood, and quench our thirst with eternal life, God who has been 'with you' 'shall be in you', even the 'anointing' 'now abideth in you', and we become fellowsharers of a divine nature; holiness on the inside. What comparisons and contrasts do you see?

A few contrasts:1)The law in the old results in death, in the new it results in life. This is highlighetd at their beginnings, the two great pentecosts, at one 5000 died at the other 5000 were made alive.Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law.Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrathRom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.2)The new Covenant is Permanent the old was temporary:2 Cor3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.Galatians 3:19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Heb 7:23,24 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.3)A BuildingHebrews 9:1,2 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.For there was a tabernacle made......v11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hi Ron, Please forgive me, as I read your posts, I see your heart. My heart has been quick to judge. The sword cuts both ways. He shows me my foul heart daily. Andrew Murray writes, "The one was provisional, preparatory, and intended to pass away. What is gave and wrought was not meant to satisfy, but only to awaken the expectation of something better that was to come. The other was the fulfilment of what had been promised, and destined to last for ever, because it was itself a complete revelation of an everlasting redemption, of a salvation in the power of an endless life. In both the Old and New Testament it was God who spake. The prophets in the Old, and the Son in the New, were equally God's messengers. God spake in the prophets no less truly than in the Son. But in the Old everything was external and through the mediation of men. God Himself could not yet enter and take posssession of man and dwell in him. In the New all is more directly and immediately divine--in an inward power and reality and life, of which the Old had only the shadow and hope. The Son, who is God, brings us into the very presence of God."Because of the law, "He will become more deeply conscious of his own impotence, and the strong desire will be wakened after a better life, to be found in the full revelation of Christ as able to save completely." Andrew Murray's thoughts writen in "The Holiest of All..in ChristJeff

Hi Ron, I need to add some more, as you have thought about the Covenant that was made with Abraham 430 years prior to the Covenant made on mount Sinai. Both covenants existed simultaneously. Both were enforce. In fact I believe in Hebrews 6:17, speaks to the thought that the way of faith and grace has always existed. But God chose to reveal this truth to Abraham and all those who followed. "Thus God, DETERMINING TO SHOW MORE ABUNDANTLY TO THE HEIRS OF PROMISE the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath." This says to me that God chose to reveal Himself in writen form of Scripture to be a testament to all who would read the book of Moses. in Christ Jeff