It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

LetUsPray Oct 10, 2005

This is a comment regarding the various threads about the fact that it is NOT normal to sin. No true Christian in his or her right mind can say or would say it is.A Simple Gospel by Ernest O'NeillEven a baby Christian has the power that is stated clearly in 1 John 3:9, if you'd look at it. Even a little one who has just begun to know his position with Jesus or her position with Jesus on the cross is in the same situation as that described in 1 John 3:9, "No one born of God commits sin." In other words, when Paul says, "I do what I do not want," he's saying, I'm not a Christian, because a Christian never does what he doesn't want to do, because that's the word, it's poieo, those of you who know Greek, and it's p-o-i-e-o in English letters. That's the word used in 1 John 3:9. It means "to do," it becomes poet, you know, in English, poetry, you make something, you do something. Poieo is "to do." That's what that verse says. No one born of God does sin. That is, even a little child Christian, even a little one who has just begun to know Jesus has enough power of Jesus' Spirit in his life to hold down what is wrong. At least he can rise to the level of the noble pagans, that's it. That's what that verse says.This is a real eye opener to me. I always believed that I was saved on 14 December 1983. Maybe I wasn’t, for I didn’t get the power of Jesus’ Spirit to stop the rage within me, until I was delivered from the spirit of rage. I am now even more grateful that I didn’t stay in the PAOC church where they assured me that night that I was saved, because they don’t accept the possibility that a Christian can have had that kind of evil influence in his/her life. I wonder what happened three months later, when I was told that I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and received the gift of tongues? I wasn’t delivered of the spirit of rage until three years later. It is strange though, because I got myself a Bible within days after that mighty day in December and started to tell people around me that they needed Jesus. I remember telling my colleagues at work about Jesus and being told that they really didn’t care, and they thought I had flipped my lid, because I wouldn’t go to bars and strip clubs anymore.Or is this what Ernest O’Neil is referring to when he makes the following statement:Loved ones, you have enough of Jesus' Spirit in you to obey outwardly all that he says is right. Now I agree with you, we have to deal later with what, can you be delivered from inward sins, from feeling anger, from the inclination to sin. The truth is you can, but at least the first step in Christianity is not believing that Jesus died instead of you, because the Bible doesn't say that anywhere. The Bible says Jesus died for you. But it means so that you could die with him, to yourself and to all the powers within you that make you do what you don't want to do. If you're willing to identify yourself with Jesus, he through his Spirit can give you enough power and enough grace to live like him.Or, is it possible that there is even more, but that we have decided to diminish that with denominational doctrines, which prevent a good number of real seeking Christians ever experiencing the “being saved FROM sin?”All of us will know the words that the angel spoke to Joseph telling him about the coming birth of His son, "She will bear a son," the angel said, Mary, Mary will bear a son, "and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."I praise and thank God that I am saved FROM my sin. Sadly, my very good friend who went forward five different times to “receive saving from his sins,” and talked to pastors about his struggles, hang himself before he ever found freedom. I was a baby Christian and didn’t know enough to be a real Christian friend to him; neither did the “mature” Christians he talked to.A good friend of my wife also struggled. She had “accepted” the Lord, she participated in Bible studies, wanted to know more about her Savior, yet the voices in her head remained. They told her to burn herself and she would by holding burning candles under her arms. She never found freedom. She can’t have had the “baby Christian power” to withstand the “desire to sin” she had to burn herself. so Lord we would come to you now, and Holy Spirit ask you, is there any way in which we are not entering into Jesus' deathI still wonder why Christians who are reconciled to the Father ask the Holy Spirit for anything, even though we are not told to do this by Jesus or by any of the apostles.Dear brothers and sisters at SI. I didn’t write this to be smart, I wrote this because I meet too many people who want to be real Christians, and they don’t seem to be able to get there. Is it possible that we, as the Church, drop the ball? I really believe this is the case.

sermonindex Oct 10, 2005

Hans,I'm going to go out on a limb here and not begin to answer your whole post, but to pick up on one tiny (or maybe it's not so tiny) point, to say how I would reinterpret the information you've given (about yourself - I hope that's ok) in my own words. You may disagree with me, or wish to reinterpret my 'language' differently again.You saidI didn’t get the power of Jesus’ Spirit to stop the rage within me, until I was delivered from the spirit of rage. The way I understand sin, is as the death principle which separates us from God. It drives our flesh and governs our soul, until we turn to Jesus Christ for deliverance from it through faith in His blood, His death to destroy it and His resurrection to demonstrate His victory over it. Nevertheless, our flesh is not changed totally at once, there is a process of turning it towards God as a consistent lifestyle, which is only possible with the help of the Holy Spirit who brings the life of Christ into the temple of the body and begins to transform the thinking, feeling and doing of the believer, towards pleasing God. Any evil spirit (eg, of rage) is a separate entity. It tries (and succeeds) in controlling an area of 'flesh' life, bringing failure and condemnation. I believe the presence of a spirit brings, or, is given a platform on which to rest by, injury to the inner man. This cannot heal or be healed until the spirit is sent away. But, there is no point in sending a spirit away from a person who is not interested in recovering the integrity of the inner man so to be a stronger Christian.The title of your thread implies you believe the behaviour of a person with an evil spirit is sin but I'm not sure even Jesus would say that, because He gave the disciples power over evil spirits at the same time as they were sent out to heal, as if He regarded possession as something different. Also, something which did not require His death to accomplish. Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded [tormented] for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes [bruise] we are healed. Matthew 423 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed themThe way I see it (possibly incorrectly) is that a believer whose heart is right with God can receive the Holy Spirit - because that's what the believer is entitled to receive through faith. And the Holy Spirit is way more powerful than any other spirit, so the presence of another spirit is not going to keep Him out. But, it was obviously not the Lord's will originally, that people with evil spirits should be receiving the Holy Spirit, or, He would not have specialised in delivering individuals during His earthly ministry. If His intention had been that receiving the Holy Spirit was the cure, surely this is what He would have described and promised, before He died and then we would all expect evil spirits to move out automatically on receiving the Holy Spirit.I have a question. Is there any scriptural basis for regarding the behaviour provoked by an evil spirit as 'sin'... by which I mean, sin over which we have control (after new birth/baptism in the Spirit) and can choose not to do according to the fruit of the Spirit temperance?As far as I can remember, the New Testament always puts the blame for the bad behaviour on the spirit and never places responsibility on the PERSON with the spirit, for having the spirit.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

roadsign Oct 10, 2005

As far as I can remember, the New Testament always puts the blame for the bad behaviour on the spirit and never places responsibility on the PERSON with the spirit, for having the spirit.I once heard this: spirits need to be cast out, but sin needs God's forgiveness. We do not ask forgiveness for spirits, or try to cast out sin. Jesus died for our sins, not for the evil spirits. Yet how do spirits get into people. Is it not through sinful footholds in people's lives? There has to be a condition in a person that makes them open to the entry of a spirit. I would be interested in knowing more about this "spirit of rage" that you share about, Hans. How did it get there? Anger doesn't just "happen to someone". I meet too many people who want to be real Christians, and they don’t seem to be able to get there. I can relate to this problem. The reason I experienced that nagging sense of not being able to get there was because I didn't understand what it meant to be a real Christian. I had no idea of what it meant to let Christ live through us, by the power of his Spirit. Of course we can't get there (the ideal Christian) - esp not when we're still relying on our own strength. It took me years to see that. It took God's miraculous involvemnet in my life to free me from my faulty mindsets (my sin). A physical birth is a process that includes a long process of hidden growth and developement. I have come to believe that similarily our spiritual birth includes a long hidden process of inner development. The Spirit blows where we can't see. So why does the church keep trying to frame God's Spirit into a small box. We end up with a lot of things that don't fit in, and then we have to make more boxes to fit that into. That includes the issues surrounding evil spirits and sin. (The way I see it, anyway)Diane

sermonindex Oct 10, 2005

Hi Diane,Yet how do spirits get into people. Is it not through sinful footholds in people's lives? There has to be a condition in a person that makes them open to the entry of a spirit.I think you've got part of the answer - that there has to be a foothold. I'd prefer to think of that as a vulnerability - such as being descended from a family who incline towards some unhealthy spiritual activity (medium, witchcraft), or, a curse is being passed down (for instance). Or, the spirit simply finds a child has no ability to resist, or, there is a particular injury, such as penetrative sexual assault, physical trauma (deliberate or not) - anything which breaches the integrity of the individual. I'm sure Hans will have more to suggest but these are some.The way I think of it is pictorially - that the 'earth' of the life is potentially a garden but, good things growing there get pushed aside and damaged and the trauma to the 'earth' allows weeds to settle in. Once you start thinking about root systems, this analogy is very helpful.So I'm saying that the entry of a spirit can be anything from a violent attack by the spirit or, the spiritual vulnerability to it can be introduced by activities to which children or adults are subjected or, in which they willingly take part (usually not knowing the spiritual implications). That's why to stay free, the person has to have a basic understanding of what they are being freed from and be in agreement with that freedom.The idea that the person has always sinned in some way, to be subject to spiritual oppression, attack or possession, is erroneous, I believe. It only needs spiritual or physical trauma to come from the actions of another, for the spirit to enter. This is why healing is the most appropriate defence after deliverance.

InTheLight Oct 10, 2005

I would just like to present some food for thought on this whole realm of deliverance from spirits. I think we may give the devil far too much credit for some things and taken to extremes (I'm not saying those here are) everything can be seen to be the result of demons. But that's not what Galatians 5 says. Verse 19 says "the works of the flesh are these..." and it goes on to list a whole bunch of things, wrath and hatred among them. Now we can't cast out the flesh can we? No. So it seems a little ridiculous to reduce everything to that level. Also, I believe there is a danger of taking the focus off of our true responsibility for sin and placing it on demons. That's not where God places the responsibility. I don't fear demon invasion, I fear that I will be disobedient and sinful. My responsibility is to look at my own life and be obedient to God.In Christ,Ron

sermonindex Oct 10, 2005

Frome Ernest O'NiellOur great privilege is that described in 1 John 3:9, "Whosoever, or anybody born of God does not commit sin." Of course sin is explained and defined clearly in James 4:17 where it says, "Anybody who knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him that is sin." So outward sin is conscious disobedience to God's will. The great mark and privilege for those of us who are born of God is that we do not commit sin. The emphasis here is do. We do not do any act or speak any word that is disobedient to God's will and that we know is disobedient to Him. So many of us who are born of God have experienced that. When we first met Jesus we saw that certain things that we did were wrong. We stopped swearing, we stopped having adulterous thoughts, we stopped being sarcastic, we stopped boasting, we stopped drinking, we stopped gambling, we stopped certain outward actions that we knew displeased God and many of us who have been born of God have come to that place.We have been freed from outward sin, however, great numbers of us have been troubled, not so much by outward sin which we managed to keep away from for the first few months or years of our relationship with God. Most of us are troubled by the subject we talked about last Sunday. We are troubled about inward sin, about stuff that nobody sees and indeed, few people know about but ourselves. That, loved ones, is what I would like us to talk about together this morning because inward sin is what causes many of us heartache and defeat. Many of us, in other words, are really not unlike good Jews. Many of us are not very unlike good humanness. We outwardly conform to not what we know is true. That is not surprising because even the Greek and roman philosophers did that. They expected in themselves outward conformity to known precepts. So many of us who are born of God are in that position. Outwardly we conform our lives to the things that people expect and that the Bible describes of children of God and in that way we are like all good Jews and all good humanness and all pagan philosophers and all noble pagans.Many of us are like them in another way, that we do that at the expense of an unbelievable inner conflict. In other words, many of us do what is right outwardly but we do it only because we manage to keep down incredibly monstrous and savage urges inside us that want to break out and that are constantly contradicting what we are doing outwardly. In other words, many of us have been in the position where a friend had got a good job or a friend has been promoted instead of us or a friend has come into a lot of money. We have stuck out our hand and said, "Congratulations," and inside in our hearts is rising envy of their good fortune and jealousy and indeed a creeping sort of suspicion that really we ought to have experienced that. We deserve it as much as they do. Go here to read the whole thing.http://www.victoryoversin.com/hsclean.htm

Sinner Oct 10, 2005

LetUsPray wrote:This is a comment regarding the various threads about the fact that it is NOT normal to sin. No true Christian in his or her right mind can say or would say it is.A Simple Gospel by Ernest O'NeillEven a baby Christian has the power that is stated clearly in 1 John 3:9, if you'd look at it. Even a little one who has just begun to know his position with Jesus or her position with Jesus on the cross is in the same situation as that described in 1 John 3:9, "No one born of God commits sin." In other words, when Paul says, "I do what I do not want," he's saying, I'm not a Christian, because a Christian never does what he doesn't want to do, because that's the word, it's poieo, those of you who know Greek, and it's p-o-i-e-o in English letters. That's the word used in 1 John 3:9. It means "to do," it becomes poet, you know, in English, poetry, you make something, you do something. Poieo is "to do." That's what that verse says. No one born of God does sin. That is, even a little child Christian, even a little one who has just begun to know Jesus has enough power of Jesus' Spirit in his life to hold down what is wrong. At least he can rise to the level of the noble pagans, that's it. That's what that verse says.This is a real eye opener to me. I always believed that I was saved on 14 December 1983. Maybe I wasn’t, for I didn’t get the power of Jesus’ Spirit to stop the rage within me, until I was delivered from the spirit of rage. I am now even more grateful that I didn’t stay in the PAOC church where they assured me that night that I was saved, because they don’t accept the possibility that a Christian can have had that kind of evil influence in his/her life. I wonder what happened three months later, when I was told that I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and received the gift of tongues? I wasn’t delivered of the spirit of rage until three years later. It is strange though, because I got myself a Bible within days after that mighty day in December and started to tell people around me that they needed Jesus. I remember telling my colleagues at work about Jesus and being told that they really didn’t care, and they thought I had flipped my lid, because I wouldn’t go to bars and strip clubs anymore.Or is this what Ernest O’Neil is referring to when he makes the following statement:Loved ones, you have enough of Jesus' Spirit in you to obey outwardly all that he says is right. Now I agree with you, we have to deal later with what, can you be delivered from inward sins, from feeling anger, from the inclination to sin. The truth is you can, but at least the first step in Christianity is not believing that Jesus died instead of you, because the Bible doesn't say that anywhere. The Bible says Jesus died for you. But it means so that you could die with him, to yourself and to all the powers within you that make you do what you don't want to do. If you're willing to identify yourself with Jesus, he through his Spirit can give you enough power and enough grace to live like him.Or, is it possible that there is even more, but that we have decided to diminish that with denominational doctrines, which prevent a good number of real seeking Christians ever experiencing the “being saved FROM sin?”All of us will know the words that the angel spoke to Joseph telling him about the coming birth of His son, "She will bear a son," the angel said, Mary, Mary will bear a son, "and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."I praise and thank God that I am saved FROM my sin. Sadly, my very good friend who went forward five different times to “receive saving from his sins,” and talked to pastors about his struggles, hang himself before he ever found freedom. I was a baby Christian and didn’t know enough to be a real Christian friend to him; neither did the “mature” Christians he talked to.A good friend of my wife also struggled. She had “accepted” the Lord, she participated in Bible studies, wanted to know more about her Savior, yet the voices in her head remained. They told her to burn herself and she would by holding burning candles under her arms. She never found freedom. She can’t have had the “baby Christian power” to withstand the “desire to sin” she had to burn herself. so Lord we would come to you now, and Holy Spirit ask you, is there any way in which we are not entering into Jesus' deathI still wonder why Christians who are reconciled to the Father ask the Holy Spirit for anything, even though we are not told to do this by Jesus or by any of the apostles.Dear brothers and sisters at SI. I didn’t write this to be smart, I wrote this because I meet too many people who want to be real Christians, and they don’t seem to be able to get there. Is it possible that we, as the Church, drop the ball? I really believe this is the case.

LetUsPray Oct 10, 2005

Freecd, thank you for that reference.Dorcas, thank you for your sharing and insight. I write this from my experience in my walk with the Lord, Who I give all the glory for all that He has done in my life. Roadsign, wicked spirits gain access to people and places because of sin. The less a person is able to defend her/himself, the easier the access becomes. That’s why young sexual abuse victims have the greatest struggles to find freedom. Another area has to with curses that parents put on their children by continuously putting them down and telling them that they will never amount to anything, while underscoring this with inordinate amounts of punishment, being physical or mental. They also come in all forms; there are many religious spirits operating in the Body of Christ, because of disobedience in the worship of God. This doesn’t only apply to certain denominations who worship created beings besides God, but also as a result of disobedience in the operation of spiritual gifts.Ezekiel said, "God is going to take away your heart of stone and He is going to give you a new heart, a soft heart and He is going to put a new spirit within you. He is going to take away from you this evil spirit." That is the whole purpose of the new covenant of Christ………….There are thousands of us that will testify to the fact that years after we were born of God we became aware of a need for a deeper work in our hearts and we began to seek it. (The Holy Spirit brings a Clean Heart, by Ernest O’Neill)This is exactly where it is at. When we first taste that initial joy that the Lord puts in our heart at our born-again experience, we soon realize that there is more; that there HAS to be MORE. Every Christian should experience the abundant life that Christ promises for us (John 10:10), and the victory because He came that He might destroy the works of the devil. And, this is also where many Christians fall flat on their face. Many don’t experience the abundant life. They don’t learn to take every thought captive in obedience to Christ, or how to love as Christ loved the Church and laid His life down for Her. This is NOT what I am trying to communicate in this thread. I am talking about unforgiveness and formed judgments by young defenseless children. The survivors are a small minority that is largely ignored by the Church. They struggle and often never find the freedom in Christ.Ernest O’Neill states above, “He is going to take away from you this evil spirit,” This is where the experience I have gone through proves differently, and, the experiences of people who were abused or experienced severe trauma at a young age, I had the privilege to minister to in the Name of Jesus. I realize that this may be a paradigm shift for some of you, but I ask you in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ to bear with me. In my case, which duplicates many others I have met since then, the evil spirit was not taken away by God. I certainly sought the Lord, and only because of that was I led to people who in the Name of Jesus Christ walked with me. Now, I too can declare that Jesus saved ME FROM MY sin. James 5:16, Confess your faults [trespass, offense, sin] one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.Matthew 1833 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.Jesus exhorts us on several occasions to forgive someone’s trespasses, so our heavenly Father will forgive us likewise. If we don’t, we will be handed over to the tormentors. This is where the paradigm shift comes in. Abuse victims are tormented, the only way to stop the torment is to lead them in prayers of forgiveness, i.e., to forgive the perpetrators. For whatever reason, even a little three year old girl abused by her father or grandfather, has to forgive, because she is NOT automatically set free when she “confesses Jesus as her Lord.” In my case, the abuse didn’t come to the surface until four years after I had become a Christian. As I wrote in another post, it happened in a mandatory counseling session with other Christians ministering to me. Only then, could I forgive and was the “legal” stronghold of the spirit of hate broken and did it have to leave in the Name of Jesus.The other thing that has to be done is breaking judgments. The Bible is very clear that if we judge, we will be judged. Again, this applies to little children too. Little children form judgments when they are hurt. When they grow older, the judgments become harder and harder. If God by His Spirit reveals the unforgiveness and judgments, it is possible that one can under the guidance of His Spirit be set free. However, I have never met an abuse victim who shared a testimony like that with me. If there is anyone on this Forum who found freedom after serious abuse or severe trauma as a child without the ministry and support of others, and is willing to share, it would be greatly appreciated and it may help others who read this, but are to ashamed to come forwardSo the first thing is believe that the Holy Spirit is a person in your life and ask Him, "Holy Spirit, will you begin to counsel me about this and will You begin to take me down to the depths of my inner self so that I, at last know myself." (The Holy Spirit brings a Clean Heart, by Ernest O’Neill)I have to be very honest, the witness in my spirit doesn’t agree with the above statement. I will post another thread and address this, since most of us on this Forum agree that OBEDIENCE to God is paramount in living a victorious Christian life. I don’t focus on the devil and certainly don’t give him any credit. However, we make a serious mistake when we don’t attempt to understand his schemes or wiles. Christ came so as to destroy the works of the devil. The only way we will ever have complete victory is when we submit to all Scripture, even in the area of prayer.

sermonindex Oct 10, 2005

wicked spirits gain access to people and places because of sin. The less a person is able to defend her/himself, the easier the access becomes. Hans,You say here 'because of sin'. Are you meaning that because everyone has original sin everyone is at risk of picking up an evil spirit?Or, do you mean specifically associated with the sinful action of one person against another that other (violated person) becomes vulnerable?Or, do you mean due to sinful action a person can open themself to receive a spirit?Or all three? Are there more? Thanks.

LetUsPray Oct 11, 2005

Roadsign and Dorcas and others,I am sorry Diane, I didn’t answer your question clearly and this may also address Dorcas’ questions:Yet how do spirits get into people. Is it not through sinful footholds in people's lives? There has to be a condition in a person that makes them open to the entry of a spirit. I would be interested in knowing more about this "spirit of rage" that you share about, Hans. How did it get there? Anger doesn't just "happen to someone".Or all three? Are there more?This is what I wrote in a post on What Kind of Counsel:I was saved in a charismatic church. A few months later, after praying with a pastor received the gift of tongues. Strangely enough some of the difficulties I struggled with prior to my conversion didn’t go away. Sure, I was on cloud nine for several weeks, but I came crashing down when my rage manifested itself again and I experienced very strange things, even physical attacks by unseen beings. I was scared as I had never been before. To make a long story short, through time I was delivered of three demons. The last one was the most difficult, because its root was hidden in something that I had no recollection of. It came to the surface when I attended a compulsory counseling session as part of a course. During that session something started actually to speak through me and at one point I saw myself when I was sexually molested as a small child. This part I did not explain: When the spirit of rage manifested itself by yelling: I hate you; I had a flashback and saw myself in the situation where I was totally powerless in the presence of two women. I couldn’t stop them, I couldn’t change anything and I felt the exact emotions I believe I had at the moment of the incident. I was completely humiliated and powerless and I became extremely angry. I cried and just wanted to kill them. I couldn’t, there was nothing I could do. I was totally helpless and out of control. I believe that spirits enter small children when they are severely traumatized. I have never met abuse survivors that where delivered when they became Christians. I will also explain the first deliverance. Within a week or so after I was “saved,” I became afraid. It was not a normal fear, but a paralyzing fear. I wanted to pray, but I couldn’t close my eyes, I was so scared. That night I woke up to find myself on my stomach with something that felt like hands – quite a number of them – pushing me down on the bed and my face in my pillow as if they were trying to choke me. I cried out to God for help and the hands disappeared. A dear elderly lady of the little prayer group I had joined explained that I had what she called “satanic attacks.” I learned about the name of Jesus and through some dreams – which I believe where led by the Lord – was shown the mighty power of the Name of Jesus. When fear would come, I would command it to leave in Jesus’ Name and it always did. A church from New York City came to Ottawa, where I lived at the time, to give a deliverance seminar. I attended their first meeting and they taught about what they termed “renouncement, confession, and prayers for forgiveness.” They then observed if there were people who would “manifest.” It didn’t take long and I did exactly that. I started to feel oppressed and started to cry. Quite uncontrollably I might add. A group of workers from the church gathered around me and just started calling names of what I found pretty sick things. Out of the blue one of them said “not meeting the expectations of the father.” At that moment everything inside of me recoiled and I wanted to vomit. They commanded this spirit of rejection to leave me. It took what seemed quite a while, but all of a sudden I felt something like sharp nails on the inside of my shoulder blades. It almost seemed like something was trying to hang on for dear life, but was forced up to my throat. All of a sudden it left.My father, for as long as I can remember, always put me down, hit me when my siblings fought (I was the eldest of four children), and continuously reminded me even till I was married and had moved to Canada, that I would never really amount to anything. The worst time was when I was nine years old and got a sinus infection. My mother was always sick or on her way to be sick, so when this happened she had to go for a rest at relatives. I was left alone at home, with bad headaches and regular severe nosebleeds. My father would leave the house at 6 or 6:30am and would usually not come home from work until 7 or 8 o’clock at night. My siblings were also staying at relatives of friends homes. This lasted 6 weeks. Because of the length of the illness I fell way behind in school and did poorly. At one point in grade 6, my father had me tested by an “expert,” who declared that I was low to average intelligence and I should become a carpenter. I did go to high school, but not the “higher” kind that my second brother went to. He was my example. He would succeed in life for he was much smarter than me. My father basically cursed me for most of my life at home, which finally ended when I went to sea at the age of 20. I was quite insecure and fearful; because already when I was four years old my mother would put a little purse around my neck and send me to the grocer to pay the month’s grocery bill. I had a little two wheeler and had to drive for half an hour to and half an hour back along a narrow road with canals on both side. This isn’t what scared me. It was only 3 years after the war and my mother from as young as I can remember always pointed out that we were in debt and that if I would lose the money, we wouldn’t eat for the next month and it would be my fault. When I was seven she showed me for the first time the budget notes my father kept and which showed that we were in debt by twelve thousand guilders. For a seven year old in 1951, that was like a million dollars, and I worried about it.I can give you quite a bit more, but I believe that these conditions in the life of a child open him or her up for the entry of demons. Just in case it wasn’t clear, the marriage of my father and mother was not very good. Also at quite a young age did I learn details that no young person ever should know about the intimate sexual problems of his parents. I think that if one talks about a dysfunctional home, mine would qualify.

sermonindex Oct 11, 2005

I think that if one talks about a dysfunctional home, mine would qualify.Hans,Thank you for sharing all that detail. It sounds like there were sins from others against you, as well what Leanne Payne (quotes someone else as calling) 'our own grievous reactions'.

philologos Oct 11, 2005

I have a question. Is there any scriptural basis for regarding the behaviour provoked by an evil spirit as 'sin'... by which I mean, sin over which we have control (after new birth/baptism in the Spirit) and can choose not to do according to the fruit of the Spirit temperance?As far as I can remember, the New Testament always puts the blame for the bad behaviour on the spirit and never places responsibility on the PERSON with the spirit, for having the spirit.There is more than one way of understanding this question and I want to make sure I understand what we are talking about.Does the NT ever hold a 'spirit' responsible for 'rage'? Does the NT ever speak of a 'spirit of rage'? A man or woman who submits to 'rage' will certainly become its slave but does that mean he must be 'delivered' before he can repent of his sin? I am always unsettled when I hear people who hold someone else responsible for their own sin. Some blame their parents, or their childhood, or spirits but there is no deliverance from sin until a man speaking to God says 'I have sinned against thee'.I'm not sure either whether O'Neil is referring to a spirit which is an 'entity' or a spirit which is a 'disposition'. Perhaps the original poster can tell me? I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?

LetUsPray Oct 11, 2005

Dear Ron,I'm not sure either whether O'Neil is referring to a spirit which is an 'entity' or a spirit which is a 'disposition'. Perhaps the original poster can tell me? I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?You put it very well when you say “I just can’t do the math!” It may be a bit more involved than that, I think. It is not a matter of math; it is a matter of walking out one’s salvation by the continuing forming of Christ in you.We have to put our denominational doctrines on God’s altar and start reading His Word again under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not based on what others have taught us. What does it mean when we are born-again? What does it mean when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit? Jesus told us that being born again meant that we were also born of the Spirit. He also said that if we believed – which means, commit ourselves unto – we would have the ability to see – understand – the Kingdom of Heaven and we would qualify to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He didn’t say that we were now fully filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was fully filled with the Holy Spirit and He saw what was IN man. Most Christians I know, who by denominational definition are “filled” with the Spirit, certainly don’t see what is IN man. Most don’t even admit to what is within themselves, although they are quite able to point out the problems others have.Isn’t it for this reason that Paul asks the Father: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;” (Eph.1:17,18), AND,…”That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God” (Eph.3:16-19).Why did Paul write this: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you (Gal.4:19)? Why didn’t he just baptize them in the Spirit? Wouldn’t that have been a lot quicker and more secure, or is there more to it: we are not completely filled with the Spirit, even though we appear to be displaying gifts of the Spirit by speaking in tongues?How about Colossians 1 where Paul again talks about laboring to present every man perfect in Christ? Why was Paul laboring? Just to set the record straight, I didn’t blame my parents for what I went through. Never did I accuse them for what I did. They also attended a church where the truth of the gospel wasn’t preached. I hated my mother, but when I became a Christian, the very first thing I did was write her and my father a letter in which I asked them to forgive me for all the pain I had caused them. I also forgave them before the Lord. As I pointed out, the sexual abuse incident wasn’t revealed to me until four years after I became a Christian, therefore I wasn't able to forgive the perpetrators untill then and break the right of the tormentor to that area of my life. I know that I was a Christian in spite of my struggles. Why does Paul write:2 Corinthians3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.With all due respect Ron, if you haven’t been there, you may not understand all the implications. I believe that this is the reason that I cross paths with hurting people all the time, because God sends them to me. Every church has people who suffer and they never find freedom, because we have established rules for God in what we are willing to accept. The God I serve is greater than any man can describe Him, or even understand Him.

philologos Oct 11, 2005

We have to put our denominational doctrines on God’s altar and start reading His Word again under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not based on what others have taught us. I don't have any denominational doctrines. I doubt that there is a denomination that would have me! :-) With all due respect Ron, if you haven’t been there, you may not understand all the implications. I believe that this is the reason that I cross paths with hurting people all the time, because God sends them to me. Every church has people who suffer and they never find freedom, because we have established rules for God in what we are willing to accept. The God I serve is greater than any man can describe Him, or even understand Him.Why do people presume that because somewhere does not talk about things 'they have not been there'? You would be surprised where I have been and if you were to search this website you would find out. As I pointed out, the sexual abuse incident wasn’t revealed to me until four years after I became a Christian, therefore I wasn't able to forgive the perpetrators untill then and break the right of the tormentor to that area of my life. This is not theology but psychology. Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinking?

LetUsPray Oct 11, 2005

I don't have any denominational doctrines. I doubt that there is a denomination that would have me! Well brother Ron, I am with you on that one. :-) Why do people presume that because somewhere does not talk about things 'they have not been there'? You would be surprised where I have been and if you were to search this website you would find out.You are totally correct; I haven’t been on long enough to really know you. I apologize and will be more careful next time.This is not theology but psychology. Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinkingRon, I don’t know why you call this psychology? I only do prayer counseling and have never, nor will use psychology or psychiatry for that matter. Some people I know have been helped by psychologists, but I have never personally been involved in this way, because Jesus came to set the captives free. I have no answer why it took four years to expose this “thing,” but that is exactly what happened. It is the only reason I wrote it, because in praying and asking God for insight into a difficulty when I minister to other people, the Lord often provides that. Why didn’t He do that when they were saved? If you know, please tell me, for to date the Lord hasn’t shown me yet. I have seen people who were set free after specific demons were addressed and departed. If they were “filled” with the Holy Spirit, I have no idea, only God knows that. What I can testify to, is when the “rage” left me, I never experienced it again. I felt still the same about God, except that I was much more amazed by His patience and love for me.The reason that I assumed that you had not been delivered from a demon after you were saved was based on the fact that you wrote,I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?It was not my intention to question your experience or integrity, all I asked was that you could be open to a reality that some have experienced and others not. The “Church” is in general not open to this, and I thank my heavenly Father still today, that I was set free in the mighty Name of Jesus.

sermonindex Oct 12, 2005

I am always unsettled when I hear people who hold someone else responsible for their own sin.This sentence in itself could make a large and useful discussion, which perhaps we could weave along inside the rest of this thread?Ron, your word 'unsettled' arrests my attention. I feel it is there because the theology in the rest of the sentence is perhaps, too concise, and this is why the possibility of truth in the second part of the sentence, is unsettling. I can see that only oneself is responsible for one's own sins. And I would ask whether the 'people' who make such a statement, are as clear as you, about the old man and sins?Also, it remains to the Spirit of God to convince of sin, and no-one can take responsibility for their 'own sin' until that has happened. Then, they may make the prayer you suggest in your next sentence.Some blame their parents, or their childhood, or spirits but there is no deliverance from sin until a man speaking to God says 'I have sinned against thee'. The holding 'someone else responsible' has to be a valid part of an individual's search for the truth about their own behaviour. They may have been brought up to believe certain actions are 'sin' when they are not, and vice versa. Are you open to the possibility that one person may control another, so that the other person sins, or do you deny this dynamic?There is also the way God does not lay blame for some sins on some people, as if He too realises the circumstance was beyond their control - whether because of their age, or the force used to procure their complicity, or their ignorance.Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?In their flesh and the mind of the flesh.Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. As you have said of those leaving a homosexual lifestyle, the time factor applies as much to those leaving other types of addiction, where the effect on the physical body is not immediate or, rather, it is a process.When Jesus preached the gospel before Pentecost, He offered healing and deliverance and gave power to the disciples to do this too. If this ministry does not precede the invitation to people to commit to Christ, when will they be healed and delivered, if not afterwards - not at all?Having sat under the cultish ministry of a man who could move demons around, I have no doubt there is a connection to the phenomenum at work in Matt 7:22, 23.There is also this(NASB) Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumbleandMatthew 18:6 " But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. If one accepts that the flesh is not affected by regeneration, apart from through being washed and sanctified - these being entirely spiritually bestowed - then the pockets of resistance which are sometimes called 'bondages' can easily be a spiritual stronghold too.Joshua 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. I believe that being born again enables one to conquer the 'land' of one's life - including being freed from whatever is lurking and controlling the mini-kingdoms with their own lifesource (spring) within it.

sermonindex Oct 12, 2005

This is not theology but psychology.This may not be theology but, it is how we are made by God. Not everyone who remembers abuse does so because of a revelation through the Spirit. To many, the memories just start breaking through, once a 'safe' emotional distance from the events has passed. Unless they have broken through before the person became a Christian, how can they have been brought to God at the time of conversion?What you said about psychologists is completely unfair, as they can only go on the client's disclosure. Let me qualify that by saying I know a great deal of nonsense passed for psychology in the past and perhaps some of it is still practised by some BUT, the latest way of working with survivors is light years better now, including a move away from viewing 'faith' as a defence mechanism.(A coping mechanism is the first stage - eg you have an exam coming up - you go and do extra study; a defence mechanism would be eg to have a cigarette instead of doing extra study.)A psychologist is there to help the client deal with the client's truth. This is very similar to how one's relationship with God works, if one is serious about being changed. One has to be open to the suggestion there is another way of seeing the same situation, such that the burden of it is lifted.... and not surprisingly, the strategies which work the best are the ones which closely resemble God's way of dealing with us. Prayer does the same.... However, only God can deal with the sin of the individual.It takes as long again to train to work with survivors, as it does to work in ordinary counselling. The discipline is extremely strict, and the more exactly practised, the more use. As Paul said, 'I would not have you ignorant...'If I write more, it will be too much but, there is much more to be said. It's all pretty obvious once one understands the principles, as with any area of expertise. Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinking?Is this logic, really?It is very much the kindness of God that some people are spared memories. It is also His kindness to bring memories to the surface for His attention, where He shows Himself an able Healer of mind and body. He always wants to heal, and if the thesis that regeneration does not affect the flesh is to hold, then body memories which are distressing to mind and spirit, cannot be dealt with spiritually - unless under God in terms of re-creation where necessary or, miracle, where necessary - as well as crisis and process. They all play a part in recovery. The problem is often that the survivor thinks God will be embarrassed by their need. Then, there is the local church, who think healing should be over quickly - not for any reason of the local church's expertise - they just make that bit up because they don't know what else to do.

philologos Oct 12, 2005

This may not be theology but, it is how we are made by God. who says so?

sermonindex Oct 12, 2005

who says so?Ron,There is a spiritual answer to this question. I would like time to consider how best to present it to you, then I will post.In the meantime, the Lord has brought this verse to mind, which I will and you may wish to mull over.(KJV) 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear. YoungNo temptation hath taken you--except human; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but He will make, with the temptation, also the outlet, for your being able to bear it.

philologos Oct 12, 2005

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear. Are you thinking that Christ himself would have been open to this possibility too?