PENTECOST & ROME

It greatly concerns me that so many in the Pentecostal/Charismatic/Evangelical camps have so little problem with the Pope, Rome etc. Im studying Rome's infiltraction of the pentecostal Movement over the past 100 yrs. The old timers gave no place to this system. It seems today the Charismatic/pentecostal leaders in America and Britain dont have a clue.Has anyone studied this infiltration? I believe David du Plessis was instrumental in this. I have a good bit of info but would like more. Appreciate any info.PENTECOST & ROME

There is only one good explanation. It is because we are looking for signs and wonders, not for obedience to the Word, i.e., gifts of the Spirit, rather than the fruit. Charismatic RC's are completely at home with that. When Christ is truly in you, i.e., you are really Spirit filled you will have discernment. Guess what is lacking?

I agree as a Pentecostal that the Roman Catholic Charismatics/Pentecostals really bother me. I don't doubt that it is possible that there are perhaps some people who are saved that profess to be RCC, and perhaps even spirit-filled, however, I would say these people (if they exist) are only RCC in name only, and not doctrine or practice, such as might perhaps be with people who are still new to the gospel and are largely unlearned. As Ravenhill once said, how can we consider the Roman Catholics spirit-filled? What's next, spirit-filled mormons and jehovah witnesses? To be called simply a "non-catholic" is an insult to me. I am firmly a Protestant of the RCC. They dogmatically teach that salvation comes through water baptism and taking Eucharist and confessing one's sins to a earthly priest. Granted, in an attempt to be more respected and bring more under their umbrella, they have compromised on these things over recent years, and have been much more universalist in nature. But, that is perhaps even more abominable. I don't expect to see any Pope's in heaven. It personally makes me sick to think the likes of Pat Robertson and such got on TV and told people what a great Christian folks like Pope John Paul were. Granted, probably good moral men no doubt... but simply being a moral man doesn't make one saved.

What I have heard leads me to believe three things:1) There is an attempt by Satan to destroy all Christian organizations. The more fundamental to godly teaching, the more he is after them. This includes all major protestant denominations and non-denominational Christian groups. You can see the results of this today.2) This movement is most likely being done physically by actual individuals as well. I don't think I am out of order suggesting that it is true that Rome has a strategy to bring all religions under their umbrella. I read an article about how Jesuit preists are meeting with leaders of all the major denominations and starting a new organization since the World Council of Churches didn't get the job done in America. Not to mention the other groups that are inserting people into Christian groups (communists, etc).3) Both of the above plans are no surprise to God, as what will happen is that when non-Catholic people are drawn to Catholicism, they bring the gospel (as muddied as it might be) with them. So while I hear and read about these movements to destroy the true church, I just remember that God laughs at those who are trying, and that even the most clever plots of men against God will turn out to His glory.Anyone that has read John Rice knows his stance on Rome, he wrote tracts like 'Dear Catholic Friend' and such. But Rice also preached using quotes out of Catholic Bibles, to show that even they have access by words to receive the gospel. Before I get too weirded out by Rome, I have to remember men like Luther, Menno Simons, Thomas Bilney and Charles Chinuquoy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chiniquyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menno_Simmonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_BilneyWhile I cannot vouch for the complete doctrine of all these men, it still brings light to the fact that they had, as Catholics in free nations have, the ability to pick up and search through the Scriptures for the truth.

Here is what I live daily, as a missionary the most catholic nation, Italy (more than 99% of Italians are catholics).More and more prophetic voices are stating that God will destroy the catholic structure and bring revival to the people. As the structure appears more and more as being of the antichrist, a genuine thirst is growing among the people. This is why the catholic charismatic movement is growing. They find there the supernatural dimension that is missing in the traditional catholic church. However, the whole movement compromizes on the main doctrines (salvation, baptism, Mary, etc.), being in agreement with the Vatican's views on those matters.It is therefore very hard to know if the charismatic catholics are genuinely part of the Body of Christ or not. I believe that as they truly get saved, they will leave the catholic church and gather with evangelical/penticostal/protestant churches. It has not quite happened yet...However, talking with a pastor in Malta, I was amazed to hear that the charismatic catholics of Malta have almost all majorly ajusted their theology, professing salvation by grace and renouncing the idolatry of Mary and of the "saints".So, all in all, we can say that God can use anything, including an evil structure. He then changes the hearts and it is being shown in practical acts.About the Vatican's authority. It is clearly very messed-up... Their actions are mainly stained with demonic activities and antichrist-like mindsets. Let's remember that the current pope, Benedict XVI, was the personal adviser to John Paul II on doctrinal matters. Therefore, all the ecumenical attempts from the former pope to "bring peace" among religions and all the changes in the doctrine of salvation with the purpose of unifying the main religions were all inspired by the current pope. For exemple, when John Paul II stated that there is no salvation outside the catholic church, he was denying the authority of all the post-Reformation churches. But saying that the Jews no longer need to be evangelized because they are saved by the Old Covenant is a clear move towards unifying Judaism and Christianity.So on the one hand, the current pope was encouraging the former one to refuse dialogue with the evangelical/penticostal/non-denominational/protestant churches and on the other hand he was doing exactly the opposite regarding to the main religions (judaism, buddhism, hinduism).

Behind many of these issues is the issue of 'ultimate authority'. These next few statements are generalisations and I know some will not like them..The Roman Catholic's ultimate authority is the Church of RomeThe Protestant's ultimate authority is (used to be) the Scriptures.The Charismatic's ultimate authority is subjective experience.Historically, the charismatic movement began to unite Protestant and Catholics on the basis of a shared experience. They began to meet together and worship together because they had the same experiential theology. The older broad divisions used to be 'bible based' or 'church authority based' and many evangelicals worked together in evangelistic campaigns because they had a common 'ultimate authority' in the scriptures. The charismatic movement changed much of that and redrew the lines of demarcation so that you had evangelicals and catholics united by a common charismatic experience on the one side and non-charismatics on the other side.If you imagine a circular cake! the older demarcation was a vertical line drawn through the middle; on the left were the bible based and on the right the 'church tradition'. Now imagine that line still sketched in but a horizontal line drawn across the cake... above the line you have 'charismatics', below the line 'non-charismatics'. People now find themselves with unexpected fellow travellers with whom they are united in 'experience'.I am one of those awkard people who have had a charismatic experience but maintained a bible-based ultimate authority!

I am one of those awkard people who have had a charismatic experience but maintained a bible-based ultimate authority!Me too. ;-) I don't think it has to be one or the other. I believe it can be both.

I have had experiences, but stand firmly on the Word of God. Many of the giants of the past were the same way. No one needs to fit into a box to be pleasing to the LORD.