Mike, Freecd, InThe Light, and all Brothers and Sisters at SI

This is a carry-over from the post “How Christ delivered me from the power of sin,” by Ernest O’Neill, and the reason for “the major theme of my posts.” This is correct; it is the major theme of my posts and the “fire” that is burning in my bones: Praying (= asking) to the Father in the name of Jesus.Brother Mike, I hear you and I know what you are saying. I don’t want to “push my point,” for it isn’t MY point. I respect all of you, I go much further than that, I pray for you all, for you all are a part of God’s Church. I know that some of the things I say seem outrageous to some or maybe even most of you. Please consider this post and allow me to explain a few more things so I can share what the Lord has laid on my heart. I am deeply convicted that is the Lord, for I can’t for one moment believe that Satan would try to bring us together. Now we are not.Freecd, I know who my Savior is, and yes, I certainly experience freedom from the carnal nature Christ died for. Thank you Jesus!InTheLight. Brother Ron, thank you and bless you.This issue of whether or not we should pray to Jesus and the Spirit really seems to be a major theme of many of your posts. It is a matter of interest but I hope it isn't a matter of fellowship for you. I pray to the Father, I also pray to Jesus, and I pray to the Holy Spirit, and I believe I'm in some good company, here are just a few examples...A dear saint, who just retired from SI, wrote a post in which she underscored that she didn’t want to talk about “man,” but about Jesus. I am just about on the same page, and it would be sad if wanting to obey God’s word would stop me from fellowship. However, this has been my experience since September 2000. I no longer fit in with the different waves of doctrine in a variety of our churches.The Lord spoke to me in a very powerful way through a dream and a word in September 2000. The message is: stop all your programs, i.e., man-made endeavors, return to My Word, and obey It. The Lord spoke to me again on February 9, 2001. He told me to repent, otherwise I would be lost. I repented and dedicated my life to His cause, to glorify Him at all cost, even my life.Through another dream and word, the Lord told me that the Church wouldn’t listen to the warning and continue on Her chosen path which would lead to Her destruction. I understand the judgment on the Church to be deception and that She will refuse to be corrected. As a result I have prayed, following the examples of Moses, Daniel, and others, since the spring of 2001 that I would be given an opportunity to speak again, or at least to make the message the Lord gave me, known to someone in the Church who would listen, AND, who would be listened to because of their established credentials. I have none, by the virtue of the fact that no one knows me. I have spoken to individual pastors and ministry leaders, some of whom privately agree that the message is correct, but who will not back it publicly, because it will cost them their job. The Lord gave me two names of individuals who I should talk to. One is David Wilkerson. I called T.S.C. in New York, was assured that he would read my book, but then I received a polite but curt note that there NO way that he even could or would consider what I had to say.This Forum is the first actual opportunity the Lord has given me to say what He has laid on my heart. The focus of my posts is indeed very one-sided; it is the worship of our God as is recorded in His Word, taught and commanded by His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and directed by His Spirit who lives within us.Many in the Church declare that the devil is associated with the deeds of the flesh, even though these often are just that, deeds of carnal man. Many Christians also recognize that spiritual deception may be the work of the devil. What the Church doesn’t appear to fully understand, even though the Bible tells us clearly, is that the devil is transformed as an angel of light. Many declare that by concentrating too much on the devil we will bring glory to him. Nothing could be further from the truth. By not understanding that he was created by God as an extremely wise and powerful being, who has incredibly more insight into-, and understanding of God’s word than any of us, we leave ourselves open for deception. He also has one third of the angels who rebelled with him and who obey him. The Bible doesn’t tell us how great their number is, but what should be clear for anyone who has read the way he deceived Adam and Eve, is that we don’t stand a chance against him, UNLESS we strictly obey God’s word. As soon as we differ from the commandments in the Bible we will be deceived. Please take your Bible and read carefully how the serpent deceived Eve. He questioned the authority of God. And Church, he still does. That is the whole point of my posts and responses; returning to the very basics of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Has no one to date questioned the fact why it is that Jesus clearly and explicitly told us how to pray, and that from the very early beginning of the Church age, “man” has found ways to question the God-head, God Himself, and EVERYTHING that Jesus taught us? Who would be leading that kind of questioning? God? I don’t think so, there is only one deceiver with an enormous great army of helpers who will do nothing rather than to keep us divided and questioning how we can “improve” on what Jesus told us to do. The most effective way to deceive someone is to make them believe that what they are doing is correct.I am very well aware of the purpose of SI. I also realize that the things I say conflict with a lot of teaching of highly respected men of God. In spite of that, I also believe that we are to search, find, and walk in God’s truth. The honest men I have talked to, all say the same thing: do you know what you are asking? Yes, I do, for it would finally bring us together, for we all would strive to see Christ formed in us, and as a result, the denominational fortresses would crumble.If I am “out of fellowship” because of this, please tell me and I will cease and desist right now, sign off, and go back to my knees and beg my Father for mercy for the Church. If my burden and focus doesn’t prevent me from fellowship with you, I will continue to address the things that “the Spirit” within me, shows me. I am not trying to make a name for myself; there are ways that are much more effective than “going against the flow.” I have been given a message, and the burden to bring that message has not as yet been taken from me.

Dear, Dear Hans!Your fellowship and additions here are wonderful, perhaps it's the devil himself that would have you believe otherwise. Don't take that the wrong way. I don't think it is a reach at all to state that by and large what goes on here is a grand wrestling with not only ourselves but a wonderful .... pushing and shoving each other onto considering just what it is we believe. That might be a poor choice of words in that what can come about is a divisiveness over things when it ought to be a challenge to consider, to think, to re-evaluate things as we each bring our perspectives and understanding out and let all of it be examined not with an eye on criticism but on purity more so honesty.Think we can all get off track right at that point. I can hardly think of a better example than this incredibly honest man that has been brought to our attention lately, a one Mr. Earnest O'Neill, how well his name fits! "Earnest".Give me honesty any day over doctrine.... Ah, careful Mikey... Doctrine can always be modified and codified and addressed, kind of back to the original mention here, It IS important of course and it is not to be set aside or moved out of a place of importance or order. It's almost to say that it is of such great importance that you can't even draw near to it without removing your shoes. Am going to be off on another long winded tangent before I know it, the residue from reading through this latest installment of honesty mentioned in that other post still just reverberating.Help me here Hans, I think maybe I am getting the gist of this from here:Please take your Bible and read carefully how the serpent deceived Eve. He questioned the authority of God. And Church, he still does. That is the whole point of my posts and responses; returning to the very basics of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Has no one to date questioned the fact why it is that Jesus clearly and explicitly told us how to pray, and that from the very early beginning of the Church age, “man” has found ways to question the God-head, God Himself, and EVERYTHING that Jesus taught us? Who would be leading that kind of questioning? God? I don’t think so, there is only one deceiver with an enormous great army of helpers who will do nothing rather than to keep us divided and questioning how we can “improve” on what Jesus told us to do. The most effective way to deceive someone is to make them believe that what they are doing is correct.The word standing out large is "Questioning" and more so maybe the issue is one of kind or manner.If we are questioning as one of a clever dodge or as you stated to "improve" and in a even more diabolical sense, to denigrate, surely we are far off the mark. There is a favorite redundant saying "not every question is a statement" it can be difficult to catch the inflection in our discourses here, but over all I think our questioning is with right motives.Through another dream and word, the Lord told me that the Church wouldn’t listen to the warning and continue on Her chosen path which would lead to Her destruction. I understand the judgment on the Church to be deception and that She will refuse to be corrected. As a result I have prayed, following the examples of Moses, Daniel, and others, since the spring of 2001 that I would be given an opportunity to speak again, or at least to make the message the Lord gave me, known to someone in the Church who would listen, AND, who would be listened to because of their established credentials. I have none, by the virtue of the fact that no one knows me. I have spoken to individual pastors and ministry leaders, some of whom privately agree that the message is correct, but who will not back it publicly, because it will cost them their job. The Lord gave me two names of individuals who I should talk to. One is David Wilkerson. I called T.S.C. in New York, was assured that he would read my book, but then I received a polite but curt note that there NO way that he even could or would consider what I had to say.There is a kind of quirky thing that goes on when we bring our experiences out into the open to be examined. The things we believe wholeheartedly are given us perhaps of the Lord. Prophecy's, dreams and visions, things borne out of prayer and times alone with the Lord. What is peculiar is that when they are held up and challenged by other members of the same body for accuracy and to the best of our fallen minds our understanding of scripture there can be a tendency to take it too personally. It can leap off into hurt feelings, misunderstandings of intent, thoughts of conspiracy, the devils meddling, offenses, cries of deception a whole host of things. It is not to say that is all happening in this instance. It is not to read too much into what you Hans, are saying nor would it be to read too much into my own generalization.1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am sure I could and likely rightly at times be accused of butchering 5:20 and that would be by and large in that it seems that so much prophesying is undefined and has been made something other than what was meant and intended at least as it is in our day, that of a horoscope or psychic hotline motif. But that's just my take and I still don't fully have a grasp on it. In fact I still don't have a grasp on a lot of things. Am quite comfortable agreeing with Ron's (Philologos) assessment; "I don't even agree with myself often times" or something to that effect.The further I go and I have no other training, no "proper schooling", college etc. the more I am beginning to see there is a zillion things I must hold in abeyance, in open hands ready to let go of and reconsider. Am still but a young pup in all these things.Back to the questioning though, here is something that I think fits quite well...We went down the wrongroad when we started giving peoplethe expectation that they had aright to answers, absolutes, anddirectives– and that it was our jobto give them such answers. Jesusnever did. He only answered threequestions directly in all the fourGospels, and was asked 183!Richard RohrAnd another;Sir Francis Bacon’s advice to “Read notto contradict... but to weigh and consider.”(Both these from a rather interesting and thought provoking http://www.conversationsjournal.com/ one may not agree with everything there but it is at least refreshing to hear some thinking out loud and some surprises at my own prejudices lying just below the surface, I.E. psychologists)But Hans certainly not 'out of fellowship' think there is a concern that rises up in "command and obey". What is back of that? It is has that ring of "Or else" to it rather than reverential fear and love ... "Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments." It is all the difference in the world between a "want to" and a "have to". This may be all a bit off track from the other questions raised in the other post, can we go back to them there and wrestle with them?Brother, it is just to consider this consideration; The great majority here just want to go on with the Lord in spirit and truth in a reality and honesty. And in all the honesty that I can state it, I find that there is much that I am wrong about and love to be corrected, I don't mind in the least being a fool if it will help this poor man and others get at what the Lord would have us to grasp.

Dear Brother Mike,The reason that I asked the question about fellowship was because of the comment from InTheLight:This issue of whether or not we should pray to Jesus and the Spirit really seems to be a major theme of many of your posts. It is a matter of interest but I hope it isn't a matter of fellowship for you.As long as people will allow me through posts, responses, and the like, express what the Lord has shown me, I will gladly continue. The matter is far too serious to let my own “sensitivities” come into play. Even though I believe what I have to share is from God, I am aware and have experienced this over and over again that the devil will raise up people to discredit me. I can handle that Mike, but honestly, sometimes I become weary, but I never loose the Joy of the Lord! There is NO “you have to” from me, but it may come across through Scriptures. I certainly felt it through the quoted Scriptures from Earnest O’Neill. It grieves my spirit when well-meaning brothers compare (what I accept as) the Spirit’s discernment with humanistic psychology. And hereby, I don’t for one moment discount that a true Christian psychologist can have real Spiritual discernment. Just as an aside; my actual name is Johannes (God has been gracious, or, gift from God); Ernst [=Earnest] (seriousness - in battle -); Prang (German – crushed or beaten – my personal relationship to God, Isaiah 66,1,2). So Earnest O’Neill and I have something in common.Brother, it is just to consider this consideration; The great majority here just want to go on with the Lord in spirit and truth in a reality and honesty. And in all the honesty that I can state it, I find that there is much that I am wrong about and love to be corrected, I don't mind in the least being a fool if it will help this poor man and others get at what the Lord would have us to grasp.I love your heart brother; I am in exactly the same place. Even though I am strongly convicted and burdened about what I “see” in the Church, if anyone shows me that what I understand from Scripture is wrong, I will change without an argument. This is not about us; this is ALL to glorify God and to become very serious about our Savior’s warnings about the last days, great deception, false prophets, etc., etc. It is for this reason that I am so strong about certain accepted doctrines in the Church which in the least case lead to fleshly manifestations and in the worst case to demonic bondage and spiritual blindness.The reason why I responded to the post of Earnest O’Neill is not because I question the need of the work of the Holy Spirit in one’s life, it is exactly because of that, that I responded the way I did. Many times we hear of the Work of the Holy Spirit in one’s life, it is equated with speaking in tongues. This morning I read The Personality of the Holy Spirit by R.A. Torrey, I have read Watchman Nee extensively, and I can go on and on. Still, with all that information and these great men of God’s testimonials, the actual worship of God in the Church of Jesus Christ seems to go on greater and greater diverging paths. Why is that? I know that some of you ask these questions. Why do even great men of God come up with different answers? When two people have the same Holy Spirit living in them, they should have the same witness of the Holy Spirit. If nothing else, they should LOVE the brethren. Just for that reason alone, it must be obvious to some of us, that this is not the case. We have large and small churches filled with people who speak in tongues; some won’t even accept one as member if you don’t. Yet, the backbiting, jealousy, gossip, etc. in many of them demonstrate no fruit of the Spirit. What is it that they are doing when they speak in tongues? Can one accept a gift of the Spirit without the fruit; shouldn’t that raise a question? When I am with a group of Christians who all pray in tongues for the purpose of intercessory prayer, and I become distracted and uncomfortable with some of the tongues to the point that I cannot even focus on my Lord, what is it that causes my discomfort? Is it my “insecurity” in Christ, or is it that the tongues that offend my spirit aren’t from God but from the enemy? I know it is the latter, but many Christians become very angry with me when I offer that suggestion. 1 Corinthians 1210 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.Hebrews 24 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will.In both these Scriptures we see that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts according to His own will, why do we insist that ALL should manifest the gift of tongues if the Bible tells us:1 Corinthians 1229 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?In this Scripture we see that according to Paul not ALL speak in tongues. Why do we insist that our walk with the Lord is not complete unless we do? What could be the result if God doesn’t give the gift of tongues to a certain individual, but he or she is more or less told that if he or she doesn’t, their walk in Christ is not complete? When we insist on demanding spiritual gifts when they are not granted by God through the Holy Spirit, our adversary will give them. It is for this reason that we have to have the discernment of the Holy Spirit.This “forcing” of spiritual gifts is one of the reasons that the Church is deceived. Unless we seek the real work of the Holy Spirit by humbling ourselves, crucifying the flesh, and submitting to God’s Word, we will not receive the discernment we so desperately need.

Hi Hans,Not sure what Ron meant there exactly, will let him answer that. But curious about the tongues thing, didn't find anything peculiar at all, in fact thought his comments were refreshing;I spoke in tongues about a year and a half later. I don't know that tongues are a big deal in the thing anyway. I think they're many of us that haven't spoken in tongues I don't think that's an issue. Certainly I didn't then, but there was an absolute confidence that the Holy Spirit had come into my life and filled me and cleansed my heart. I felt the cleanness inside. I felt the cleanness. There's a line in our First World War poem that goes, it's a misinterpretation of course of the First World War like swimmers into cleanness leaping. Well that's what it was. It was like a swimmer in the cleanness leaping. For the first time I had not had this refuge and garbage and dirt inside my heart. It was the first time I had not had a fountain of strong desire for lust or envy or pride or anger or jealousy coming up from inside my heart. It was just a quietness inside.Keep in mind that this is a transcript from a message. But even then it's a pretty frank admission ..."I think they're many of us that haven't spoken in tongues I don't think that's an issue." I am not sure why you would want to read more into that then what is there. It's as if he is mentioning it in passing, not as a prerequisite.And for that matter, would align right alongside you in your other sentiments. Have been in the midst of a soul grieving display of just pure nonsense in this regard, a 'coaching' and coaxing it out of people all made to speak gibberish at the same time with no interpretation and the exhortation to "let your mind go". Frankly, I thought it was demonic and repulsive, especially coming minutes after weeping over the destruction brought on from 911, which was the whole reason for the gathering, or so I thought. That was fairly quickly put away to get "back to what we had been teaching on". And I caught all kinds of flack at home over it, but never again set foot in that church.For all that, if the Lord was to grant this gift and I believe He still does, that would be truly wonderful. But all this fakery and shenanigans that is part of the modern day nonsense or that by some twisting of scripture is made to be a "must" or a condition is rubbish.I just don't see that in what Mr. O'Neill stated brother.

LetUsPray wrote:Unless we seek the real work of the Holy Spirit by humbling ourselves, crucifying the flesh, and submitting to God’s Word, we will not receive the discernment we so desperately need. We have to have hope/faith/love, In the midst of all the mess, of what is real and what is not, we must have it.Looking at the imperfection that so easily surrounds us and even at times overwhelms us, can make us hard, cynical and dispondent. Pauls writings in the NT about Christ and his church lift us to heights of expectant faith in the saving and keeping power of our Lord Jesus for his church. She is the bride of Christ, one of the great themes of the bible, who will one day be joined with him at the marriage supper of the lamb. I sense your frustration at the peddlers of dirty water, but your faith and outlook on the church and of the church must be seen through the spectacles that ...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Hoping that your prophetic burden may be tempered by this glorious hope,

If I am “out of fellowship” because of this, please tell me and I will cease and desist right now, sign off, and go back to my knees and beg my Father for mercy for the Church. If my burden and focus doesn’t prevent me from fellowship with you, I will continue to address the things that “the Spirit” within me, shows me. I am not trying to make a name for myself; there are ways that are much more effective than “going against the flow.” I have been given a message, and the burden to bring that message has not as yet been taken from me.Perhaps you misundertood my comment. Your thoughts on prayer are welcomed by myself and I'm sure, others here. I think most here would agree that they wouldn't find this matter to be a point over which fellowship would be broken. My concern was that since it seemed to be such a big issue with you that you might break fellowship with those around you over it. I'm glad to hear that that is not the case.The Lord gave me two names of individuals who I should talk to. One is David Wilkerson. I called T.S.C. in New York, was assured that he would read my book, but then I received a polite but curt note that there NO way that he even could or would consider what I had to say.Just to clarify, did the Lord instruct you to warn Mr. Wilkerson specifically about this matter of prayer to Jesus or was it concerning some other matter?In Christ,Ron

Brother Ron,Just to clarify, did the Lord instruct you to warn Mr. Wilkerson specifically about this matter of prayer to Jesus or was it concerning some other matter?I wouldn’t call it as much as warning, as to share with him the burden the Lord has given me. Prayer is certainly a part of that, especially in light of intercession and seeking God for unity of believers. I asked the Lord why He gave me this burden, knowing full well that I wouldn’t be able to deliver it. More things took place with respect to this issue, but every door was closed.Brother Zeke,Looking at the imperfection that so easily surrounds us and even at times overwhelms us, can make us hard, cynical and despondent Just to make sure that I don’t give the wrong impression – this medium doesn’t reflect a person’s real emotions very well – I do have a deep conviction and burden, but this doesn’t drive me to despair, rather to my knees. My Father gave me the burden; He will also provide a means to get it out if He wants this to happen. All I have to do is make sure that I don’t interfere with Him in stepping ahead or falling behind. I also use words such as “amazing,” “can’t imagine,” “unbelievable,” etc., that occasionally give a wrong impression of what I am trying to say. I will do my best not to do that.Brother Mike,But curious about the tongues thing, didn't find anything peculiar at all, in fact thought his comments were refreshing;Freecd gave me a link to a transcript, which I thought I had copied. I have been looking most of the afternoon and I can’t find it. I re-read the baptism of the Holy Spirit by O’Neill. The reason I am concerned about some of some of the “terminology” used, if I may express myself this way, is that it is understood completely different in various branches of Christianity, and especially new Christians may become confused and even encouraged to go through some of this stuff. For the moment I want to drop the “tongue” issue, especially since you concur with my observation. It is correct that one of the major issues, that has arisen from my seeking God these last few years, is the “correctness” of prayer. I find it interesting that older Christians, who aren’t from a Charismatic background, are dumbfounded when I even mention “praying to the Holy Spirit,” in the Bible study at a retirement home, I lead. I became more convicted of this when I went back, or, “was led back” to the Old Testament, and started to learn more about the holiness of God. God had laid down very strict rules about how the Israelites were to worship Him.There are a number of factors that all play a role in – what I believe – the importance of prayer to the Father through Jesus Christ is. It partly stems from my observance of Christians who “exercise” authority for healing, deliverance, and other ministries in the Body. I have seen Christians yell at demons “in tongues,” for this allows the power of the Holy Spirit to rise up within them, so they explain. Some command in the name of Baby Jesus or others in the name of the Child Jesus. Again, others have people put their fingers in the palm of their hands, since this “signifies” where the wounds of Jesus were. One evangelist who came to a Church spit in the peoples face, another hit people in the back with his fist. Sadly, he did this to a dear brother who was suffering with a chronic back injury. He wasn’t healed; it rather had the opposite effect.In some prayer meetings we wave flags (the Banner of the Lord), build altars, ask for a Michael or Gabriel anointing, or in one I was asked just to beat on an African drum “in the Spirit,” again, to increase the flow of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The common denominator in most of these events is the increased attention to the Holy Spirit, sometimes Jesus, very seldom or ever the Father. It is very good possible that no one who comes on SI ever even heard of this, but I happen to see it where ever I go, and not only where I live. I know for certain that these things are practiced and taught in the USA and in Africa. The question that comes to my mind is: what ever happened to the name of Jesus, the Name above every other name? Something has to be missing since some feel that we have to “add” to the Name of Jesus. Everything comes down to a very simple point: why are some Christians so keen to involve themselves with all kinds of activities that appear rather foreign to the practices we see in the Bible. Of course, there are also the differences in the acceptance of the possibility that a Christian can be demonically oppressed or “inhabited.” There are a lot of different issues, and the best way to share our understanding is to test them against the Bible. I wanted to do that with prayer first and foremost, because that is how we approach our God. What I see however, is that a lot of different saints are quoted. Is it reasonable to put these aside and just explore the Bible? The Bible is very clear, but again, we see different interpretations by different scholars. These differences don’t come from God. The answer has to be in the Bible and the only way to find the truth is the use the Bible, since that is the only “inspired” Scriptures we have.

Hi Hans,Very helpful in fuller exploring where you are coming from and going with this.There are a number of factors that all play a role in – what I believe – the importance of prayer to the Father through Jesus Christ is. It partly stems from my observance of Christians who “exercise” authority for healing, deliverance, and other ministries in the Body. I have seen Christians yell at demons “in tongues,” for this allows the power of the Holy Spirit to rise up within them, so they explain. Some command in the name of Baby Jesus or others in the name of the Child Jesus. Again, others have people put their fingers in the palm of their hands, since this “signifies” where the wounds of Jesus were. One evangelist who came to a Church spit in the peoples face, another hit people in the back with his fist. Sadly, he did this to a dear brother who was suffering with a chronic back injury. He wasn’t healed; it rather had the opposite effect.In some prayer meetings we wave flags (the Banner of the Lord), build altars, ask for a Michael or Gabriel anointing, or in one I was asked just to beat on an African drum “in the Spirit,” again, to increase the flow of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The common denominator in most of these events is the increased attention to the Holy Spirit, sometimes Jesus, very seldom or ever the Father. It is very good possible that no one who comes on SI ever even heard of this, but I happen to see it where ever I go, and not only where I live. I know for certain that these things are practiced and taught in the USA and in Africa. I do understand. Think a large part does go right back to an understanding of the Holiness of who God is and from there even the ease and flippancy or just lack of thought that will bring about these things. Would like to think a lot of this would just disappear if that was more the case.And would agree that it should be explored biblically,Is it reasonable to put these aside and just explore the Bible? The Bible is very clear, but again, we see different interpretations by different scholars. These differences don’t come from God. The answer has to be in the Bible and the only way to find the truth is the use the Bible, since that is the only “inspired” Scriptures we have.Seems I recall another post somewhere that was already along these lines. Maybe it could be developed more there or in starting another thread. Perhaps something on the Use and Abuse of The Name(s) or similar.

What I see however, is that a lot of different saints are quoted. Is it reasonable to put these aside and just explore the Bible? The Bible is very clear, but again, we see different interpretations by different scholars. These differences don’t come from God. The answer has to be in the Bible and the only way to find the truth is the use the Bible, since that is the only “inspired” Scriptures we have.We have indeed looked to the Scriptures on this matter and as you noted there are differences in interpretation. Also, I think it is reasonable to consider the testimony of some well known men of God in this matter. These are praying men, just as you and I are, men that God has used mightily in my own life and in the lives of many others here, they are bright signposts leading to Jesus. Certainly we don't need to put their words on the level of Scripture but we do believe they have the anointing of the Holy Spirit or else they probably wouldn't be on this site for listening in the first place. These are men held in high esteem around here, fallible men just as you and I, but nonetheless, I do feel it is fair to consider their walk as it regards this topic.In Christ,Ron

Hi Mike, Ron, and all others who follow this thread,And would agree that it should be explored biblically,These are men held in high esteem around here, fallible men just as you and I, but nonetheless, I do feel it is fair to consider their walk as it regards this topic.There was quite a move in the Christian business world to have us buy bracelets and other “reminders” with the letters W(hat) W(ould) J(esus) D(o)? I found this quite remarkable since Jesus by His Spirit lives in a true Spirit-filled believer. Observing the large amount of bracelets, Bible covers, etc., with the letters WWJD written on them, I wondered why Christians had to stop and think each time they had to make a decision about something questionable, and have to be reminded by the letters WWJD, i.e. wear Jesus on their sleeve. It was even more remarkable since the whole idea must have been developed by a Christian(s), who – we would hope – did know of Christ in us, the hope of glory. Just the fact that these bracelets and other WWJD paraphernalia sold, was proof to me that something was and is wrong in the Church.Already for years did the witness of His Spirit in me prompt me each time I tripped up or often before I did. I didn’t need a bracelet to remind me that I am a Christian. I can really relate to the testimonies of Ernest O’Neill, R.A. Torrey, David Wilkerson, and my favorite, Leonard Ravenhill. Each Christian needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit, without that we don’t have a hope of ever being strong in the strength of His might. Jesus ascended to heaven to be with the Father so that the Holy Spirit could come to abide in us. Here is where the difficulty comes in. With so many Christians apparently having different experiences with the filling of the Holy Spirit, and the apparent need for many to wear WWJD reminders, is it possible that the Church is missing something? This is really what I have sought God about. As many men of God have shared their testimonies, so do many of us too have our own personal testimonies, if we really seriously have sought and continue to seek God. The part I have had questions about, is the fact why there are different experiences and understanding, I don’t mean gifts, even though we are all filled with the same Holy Spirit?It is for this reason I suggested to use the Bible only. I too, am filled with the Holy Spirit. Yet the witness of the Holy Spirit to my spirit appears to differ from His witness to the spirits of other Christians. This has been and is the purpose of my participation in this Forum. I posted a thread, “If you think this is useful, will you?” Only two SI members responded to this. I have referred to this thread in other posts. I have read Ernest O’Neill’s testimony; it is powerful, but then, so is mine. There is a reference to go to the prayer room. Or some who are filled with the Holy Ghost will pray with us. Who prays with us and what do they pray; do they lay on hands? It may be posted somewhere, but I haven’t found it. What I have found is in the Bible, written by the apostle Paul, even after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem and the subsequent “baptisms” in the Holy Spirit as recorded in the Book of Acts. He recorded two prayers for us. These prayers both focus on the filling of the Holy Spirit, which he spells out quite clearly in Ephesians 3:16,17. The God I know, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask (Luke 11:13). It gets even better, Jesus Christ through His sacrifice on the cross has restored the relationship between the Father and me, so I can now come into His very throne room and ask Him through His Son Jesus Christ to fill me with His Spirit, to strengthen me with His Spirit in my inner man, so that my Savior may live in my heart by faith! I don’t have to go to a prayer room; nobody has to pray with me or over me, all I have to do is follow and obey His word. Praise the Lord! Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t question the importance of praying with mature Christians or confessing sin, the latter is very important for healing. I have questions about the possible laying on of hands by people I don’t know.Why is understanding the laying on of hands important? In the supernatural, laying on of hands is used for the transfer of spiritual “power,” gifts, etc. This is as true in the occult, as it is in Christianity. 1 Timothy 4: 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.1 Timothy 5: 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.In my first year as a Christian, I met a deacon of a church. This deacon struggled with great fear. He had a “gift.” It was the “gift” of foretelling the future. He received that gift from his grandmother just before she passed away. She laid hands on him and “passed” her “gift” to him when he was only ten years old. This man “knew” things and “saw” things, there was one catch: the future of the people he foretold always would result in accidents and injury. In the Church today, there are a lot of Christians who lay on hands. They also receive a lot of laying on of hands. We are warned to be careful about the laying on of hands; do we know what is in the heart of the man or woman who is praying over us? A large part of the Body is invested with religious spirits. These are behind some of these “strange” manifestations we see displayed in certain charismatic meetings. There are evangelists who have received the “baptism of fire” from a well-known TV evangelist. They now go around to churches to spread this “baptism of fire.” I was at a meeting where one of these evangelists came. There was no message, except the testimony of the receiving of this “baptism,” and a pitch for the “sowing of seed.” It really upset me to see what this man actually did and the gullibility of the church members present. Was there power in this baptism? You’d better believe it. I saw a large man who was well over 200 lbs come at least 2 feet of the floor before he fell down and stayed what they call in a state of “resting in the spirit” for quite a long time. Within the first fifteen minutes of the evangelist’s frantic yelling of fire, fire, fire, a large number of that congregation was out on the floor.The Christians who participate in these meetings are usually the more passionate seekers of “more of the Spirit.” They come from every denomination and you find them in many, if not most of our churches. It is for this reason that I am strongly convicted, confirmed by the “word” I spoke about, to no longer trust man, but to strictly follow Scripture’s instructions for the “strengthening of my inner man by His Spirit,” so that Christ may dwell in my heart by faith.

In some prayer meetings we wave flags (the Banner of the Lord), build altars, ask for a Michael or Gabriel anointing, or in one I was asked just to beat on an African drum “in the Spirit,” again, to increase the flow of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The deeper into the woods we go, the more nuts we find! ;-) Everything comes down to a very simple point: why are some Christians so keen to involve themselves with all kinds of activities that appear rather foreign to the practices we see in the Bible.Hi Hans, isn't this my line? :-)

The Christians who participate in these meetings are usually the more passionate seekers of “more of the Spirit.” They come from every denomination and you find them in many, if not most of our churches. It is for this reason that I am strongly convicted, confirmed by the “word” I spoke about, to no longer trust man, but to strictly follow Scripture’s instructions for the “strengthening of my inner man by His Spirit,” so that Christ may dwell in my heart by faith.Dear Brother Hans,Thank you for your giving us an understanding of where you are coming from based on your previous experience. I believe you have stated that you have been walking with the Lord for over 20 years and so your experience is much greater than mine and I respect the knowledge you have gleaned from your walk and wisdom with which you openly and honestly share your testimony. I come from a Christian home and said the “sinner’s prayer when I was 11 years old but I have only really been walking with the Lord for just over 4 years (I’m 43 now), still a babe in Christ really, but I rejoice greatly and praise God for the testimony of His Spirit with mine that I am a child of God, to Him be all the glory!Though I am not as experienced as you are in walking with the Lord I believe I may still have something of value to contribute to our discussions as the Lord leads. One thing that I have learned in my observations of many in the Church is the extremes we go to when we tend to focus too closely on certain facets, or views, of God and of the Body of Christ. One look at the whole Calvinism/Armenian debate is enough to demonstrate this. The Calvanists see God as sovereign, they focus on that particular facet of His character to the point of possibly overlooking other facets. The Armenians see God in the facet of His moral character sometimes overlooking other facets. It goes on and on with many different groups polarizing around many different facets of our amazing God. We surely need the illumination of the Spirit to pull back and see the whole diamond as it were, instead of just one or a few facets, to see God as a Father.I think it is also valuable to pull back and look at the Body of Christ as a whole, for when we look at just particular facets of the Body it is easy to be confused about why so many different interpreations of Scripture can come from a people baptized into the one Body of Christ by the Spirit. As someone on this forum has said, unity is not so much about consensus as it is about humilty and esteem. I am not promoting ecumenicalism in its broadest sense here, certain foundational truths must be adhered to but perhaps we can agree to trust the Spirit to help us in testing every word that we hear, and be good Bereans. There is a wealth of anointed speakers on this site who have been greatly used of God in exhorting, encouraging, and edifying the Body. As Paul could say “be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ”, so also can these say as God has set them as shepherds of His sheep. If we see no fruit in these men than we can be fairly certain they are not of the Vine, but if we do, perhaps we can allow ourselves consider that God is working in and through them for the benefit of the Body? Let’s not reject every branch because some bear thorns.In Christ,Ron

Hi Hans,The Christians who participate in these meetings are usually the more passionate seekers of “more of the Spirit.” They come from every denomination and you find them in many, if not most of our churches.I am thankful that over the years as spiritual fads have come and gone that my pastor has consistently reminded the congregation that God gives us His Spirit that we might serve Him. What doth it profit to seek more power or experience for mere power or experience sake. The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; (Isaiah 61)I have shared in some of the experiences you mention, being a Pentecostal. I used to follow all the 'power based' ministries that seemed to lend to a deeper spiritual experience with the Holy Spirit. I suppose we could say things were a bit 'mystical' as much as Spiritual. But, the seeking of experiences for experience sake is an open invitation to Flakesville. I think it comes about as the result of desiring to express our faith in just about any way but a biblical one. Is it not spiritual to minister to the poor and comfort those who are mourning? Is in not spiritual to share Christ? Is it not spiritual to visit those in prison and clothe the naked? But unfortunately these are not the spiritual experiences I was looking for in those days.I soon came to learn that Spirituality is walking in the Spirit fully submitted to God. My hunger for more of God could be quenched in getting about the Master's business. What good would a revival be if we had not gotten about the Master's business in a renewed way afterward? Its not about the 'experience' and what we can get out of God- it is about God preparing us for His service.You asked about the whole WWJD thing? Is it ironic that the whole phenomena was started in Topeka, Kansas; the same home of Stones Folly where the Rev. W. Parham forged his doctrine of initial Evidence? Topeka is considered by many to be the origin of the modern day Pentecostal movement. The whole issue of "What Would Jesus Do?" as far as we are concerned centers in the leading of the Holy Spirit. The bracelets were not intended to take the place of the Holy Spirit, but were a reminder that we need to do the works of Christ and if we are not; why not? Are you filled with the Spirit? The Jews used many icons to 'remind' them of God. Tzitzit, philacteries, mazuza, etc. We DO have the Holy Spirit as our ever present guide. When we are walking in the Spirit the thrust of our 'experience' in Him is that we do what He is leading us to do; i.e. those things that one would do if the Spirit of the Lord were upon them, etc.God Bless,-Robert

Everything comes down to a very simple point: why are some Christians so keen to involve themselves with all kinds of activities that appear rather foreign to the practices we see in the Bible.To answer your question simply but not gibly, they believe there must be something else, something more. The reason for this is because the results of modern day christianity seem to be so far removed from its original base.Getting a bit proactive about where I would like to go, what according to you are the practises we see in the bible? If you know anything of my history you will know how I have often wrestled with substance and form on this site. I think for the sake of universal agreement of terms, I should say, what is the way of Christ? I am asking this not as a general shotgun spray effect of everyday life but in specific reference to what you are talking about.

Hi Hans, isn't this my line?Yes Ron, and contrary to the impression I may have left with some, it is one of my most quoted Scriptures, especially in light of prayer.One look at the whole Calvinism/Armenian debate is enough to demonstrate this.I will not even enter into the debate whether I am a Calvinist or Armenian, whether it is important to be pre-, post-, etc., (I have my understanding), I have been painted by Christians with a number of their “doctrinal” brushes. They only divide the Body, have nothing to do with walking “in the Spirit,” or salvation. The most important issues are: knowing God intimately and understanding the schemes of the devil. Prayer is an extremely important part of that, if not the most. I will explain - and I pray that the Lord will confirm this in your spirit - why I believe this. But, the seeking of experiences for experience sake is an open invitation to Flakesville. I would go quite a bit further, if it was only Flakesville, we may possibly smile or shake our head. I would call it Bondageville straight from Hell, given by the one who is transformed as an angel of light.Getting a bit proactive about where I would like to go, what according to you are the practises we see in the bible? If you know anything of my history you will know how I have often wrestled with substance and form on this site.No, I don’t know your history but it may tie in to this quote from another response:Though I am not as experienced as you are in walking with the Lord I believe I may still have something of value to contribute to our discussions as the Lord leads. One thing that I have learned in my observations of many in the Church is the extremes we go to when we tend to focus too closely on certain facets, or views, of God and of the Body of Christ.I pray that you will believe me that I “am not more experienced” in walking with the Lord. I believe that the Lord has shown me a lot of things and that He has given me a message for the Church. But I give this very humbly, because if this is truly from God, I better trust Him and nothing of myself. Having said that, I have to explain my experiences, because they – I believe – were led by the Lord. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.If I trust the Lord for my salvation and for the leading of His Spirit, I also have to believe Him that He has created me for a purpose. This applies to every true believer. Each one of us should know the good works, God has ordained for them before. If it is not clear, we have to wait and seek Him until He leads the way. We cannot for one moment rely on anyone else to give us the instructions. They have to come from our Lord. The working of His Spirit in us shouldn’t just keep us from sin, but should also lead us in His service.I have made this statement before and I will make it again: Jesus didn’t trust Himself to men, because He knew what was in men. If Christ is fully formed in us by the working of His Spirit, we too, should know what is in men. The problem that has arisen is that well-meaning Christians and I know for a fact, very Godly men decided that when one is “filled with the Spirit,” one should have all the strength required to be able to stop all sin which results from the lust of the flesh. I still have a hard time reconciling an uncontrollable rage as “a desire to sin,” which most of the lusts of the flesh are. Be that as it may, the conclusion I have to come to in light of this, is that I wasn’t filled with the Holy Spirit, because I didn’t have the strength needed to stop what I detested about myself. In spite of that, did I hear from the Holy Spirit? Did He guide me? One night I was woken up and “told” to confront a pastor, because he was in disobedient, according to the “word” I received. I was to tell him that he had to repent, or God would remove him from his position. This was the first time this happened and it made me very uncomfortable. The question one may ask is: was it maybe the devil, for by the “definition” suggested in another post, I needed to be filled, or baptized “in the Spirit.” The fact is that I did confront that pastor who told me that God’s Will would be done. He was right, three months later he was dismissed from his denomination.An exact similar incident happened a few years later. In this case the pastor I confronted confessed and repented. I realize that you have to take my word for this, for I will not give names, or details. This is the case for many of my testimonies, for most involve “confidential” information. One thing I do know is that the information I received always led to healing after repentance, and if no repentance took place there would clearly be no healing. What you at SI have to decide is if what I heard was really God, or was I deceived by the evil one? I am convinced that I heard from God. My life was entirely changed. I was led to read my Bible, and I don’t mean a five-minute-once-in-a-while pre-chewed positive message. I had the urge and desire to pray and seek God, every day, twice a day, and I told people about Jesus. God spoke to me from very early on in my walk, yet it took years for the ”last” stronghold to be revealed and dealt with. The forming of Christ in me was a steady and gradual, for I prayed and asked the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ every day since I was a brand new Christian, for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, as is written in Ephesians 1, and when I got a clear understanding of Ephesians 3:14-21 I added that to my daily prayer.I will stop here and if you have no questions I will prepare a next post with more of what I want to share.Mike, do you want me to change this thread or can I continue?

Brother Robert W,It is very "Spiritual" ministering to the poor. Did not Jesus say, when I was hungry you fed me? When I was thirsty you gave me something to drink? What you have done to the least of these you have done unto me.I can only hope that it is his Spirit in me that would cause me to feel naseous to run out of a room to groan and mourn uncontrollably for unbelievers, for those who know that God is calling them and yet they are hesitant. (Rom 8:26 -- but the Spirit HIMSELF makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered).Quote:Its not about the 'experience' and what we can get out of God- it is about God preparing us for His service.I agree but many times we forget the process that comes with this preparation, the breaking, the molding, the being empty so that you can be filled AGAIN.Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we no longer need to be processed, or prepared we have arrived?Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we no longer need to be broken?Will we ever reach a level where we feel that this is it, we will no longer be empty, but will forever be full?LORD, if I am empty - Fill MeLORD, if I am prideful - Break MeLORD, if I am slacking - Shake Me

Hi bluinos,Very good. :-)

I am convinced that I heard from God. My life was entirely changed. I was led to read my Bible, and I don’t mean a five-minute-once-in-a-while pre-chewed positive message. I had the urge and desire to pray and seek God, every day, twice a day, and I told people about Jesus. God spoke to me from very early on in my walk, yet it took years for the ”last” stronghold to be revealed and dealt with. The forming of Christ in me was a steady and gradual, for I prayed and asked the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ every day since I was a brand new Christian, for the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, as is written in Ephesians 1, and when I got a clear understanding of Ephesians 3:14-21 I added that to my daily prayer.Can relate to much of this, in my case the daily prayer has been from Colossians 1:9-12...For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (Colossians 1:9-12)I will stop here and if you have no questions I will prepare a next post with more of what I want to share.Please continue...In Christ,Ron

Mike, do you want me to change this thread or can I continue?Oh please do continue Hans, these threads have a way of taking on a different character and flavor as they progress. It was just a thought at the time.

Hi Mike,Oh please do continue Hans, these threads have a way of taking on a different character and flavor as they progress. It was just a thought at the time.PLease forgive me, but I am starting a new thread. After the post of "jimbob" on It is NOT normal to sin, But....? I don't see much of an option. I do other things besides reading posts on this Forum (this is NOT a jab, but merely an explanation), I find it difficult to follow more than one thread at the time, for I pray about them and that requires time too. Besides that, I want to write for my own website too.The new thread is called Schemes of the Devil.Thank you all for your patience. I appreciate your willingness to consider what I say.