Afraid

"... in this age of desperate apostasy, forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture. Here you have the Apostles proclaiming a message that was profoundly disturbing. We are afraid of disturbing people today. You must not have their emotions stirred, you must not have people weeping in a meeting, you must not have people rolling on the floor under conviction of sin. Keep things orderly. May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work? If God chooses to move in that way, if God chooses to so convict men and women of their sin that they will be about to lose their reason, I say, God move on until we can see again what was witnessed in the Edwards Revival, in the Finney Revival, in the Fiftey-nine Revival, in the Welsh Revival, and, praise God, today in the Hebrides Revival- God moving in a supernatural way." -Duncan Campbell, "The Price and Power of Revival: Lesson from the Hebrides Awakening" (pp. 25-26)

First, we must note that he said people were "rolling on the floor in conviction of sin," not rolling on the floor laughing... We must be careful with this, however. Remember what Paul said to the Corinthian church when it was getting a bit "out of order." "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air....12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, SEEK TO ABOUND FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH....16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?17 For you are giving thanks well enough, BUT THE OTHER PERSON IS NOT EDIFIED....20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature....26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. LET ALL THINGS BE DONE FOR EDIFICATION....32 AND THE SPIRIT OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO PROPHETS;33 for GOD IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION BUT OF PEACE, as in all the churches of the saints....37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.40 But all things must be done properly AND IN AN ORDERLY MANNER." 1 Corinthians 14:6-40 Once again, we must examine every statement and compare it with Scripture.If you (I speak to people in general, not to one specific person) want to "roll on the floor" etc., the best thing to do would be to do it in secret -- where your heavenly Father is most glorified.--Maria

Yeah, I thought the man (Duncan Campbell) was probably not way off -- but that quote can be totally misconstrued if not put in context. That's why it's important to put everything in context and make sure it aligns with scripture. The subject line: "Afraid" is what made me respond with Corinthians. Quote: But that is not a lincense to accept whatever is happening in a church meeting as God's spirit and promtings.That was my point.Quote:I think its in the "revival of lewis" testimony where he talks of this one man that was under such conviction that he was kinda out of his mind. He couldnt eat and just kept reapeating to himself: "Ohh God, is there mercy for me, a sinner?" That's great! Sort of goes with Reidhead's message about Repentance. "Except Ye Repent" I think it is. He says that we must see ourselves as lepors from head to toe in order to be saved. (As in the law, lepors could not be cleansed unless they were full of leprosy from head to toe.) God is so amazing!!--Maria

I believe real revival is for the benefit of the church so that the church will go out and benefit others by spreading the gospel message.The revivals of the old testament began with crying, not laughing. I think people will fall on the floor under conviction, but I don't know what all this rolling on the floor laughing stuff is all about.Yes, Paul warned the Corinthian church when it was getting out of order. Is God please when we worship? Yes. But I believe that if we don't get out on the streets where the people who need Him are, God will not be pleased with us.In the churches I attend, we desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.But we also believe and practice order, unlike some of the churches in my denomination.I believe there is a difference between lukewarmness of heart toward God and finding a balance when it comes to spiritual manifestations in the church.Just because we practice order, some would say that we're lukewarm and that we're trying to quench the Spirit of God.What do you guys think?

Quote:"The revivals of the old testament began with crying, not laughing. I think people will fall on the floor under conviction, but I don't know what all this rolling on the floor laughing stuff is all about."So true! And not only the revivals in the Old Testament, but also in the New. At Pentacost, people were "pierced" in their hearts when the Spirit of God moved and spoke in Truth!Quote:"In the churches I attend, we desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.But we also believe and practice order, unlike some of the churches in my denomination."=) Same here!!"Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 Quote:"I believe there is a difference between lukewarmness of heart toward God and finding a balance when it comes to spiritual manifestations in the church."I agree with you. I think people can actually be very lukewarm in heart while practicing "spiritual" manifestations -- we can't look at someone's outward appearance to see whether they are "on fire" (I hate that term) or not. God looks at the heart! In my opinion, many churches that say that others are "dead" are themselves dead (in sin)!!"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. "Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETED in the sight of My God. "So remember what you have received and heard; AND KEEP IT, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. "But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. "...He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Revelation 3:1-6 Isn't it amazing that we have Scripture to help us answer every question?Quote:"I believe real revival is for the benefit of the church so that the church will go out and benefit others by spreading the gospel message."Yes! "You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." Luke 24:48-49 And what was this power for?? To merely perform outward "manifestations"? NO! John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, HE WILL TESTIFY ABOUT ME, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will CONVICT the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU into all the truth; for HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.14 "HE WILL GLORIFY ME, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.The Holy Spirit is "power from on High" to enable us to TESTIFY of the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ!!!As a result of Pentacost, people were brought to salvation!!Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.Absolutely, I agree with you TaKa! =)

A big part of the reason I think Duncan Campbell got to be so involved with a fairly modern movement of God and had so much influence was because of the spirit behind this statement:"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"I believe that God loves that type of thinking. To me it seems to support the idea that, unless the Bible is clearly against it, then there is room to love those who are involved in it. and on top of that (well, acually along the same lines), there is room to believe and hope that it's true (love). and in doing so, God may enlighten the eyes of our understanding. should we be so certain about what revival is and what it looks like and how it must be, etc, based on the understandings of man and history (and not soley on the Bible) and we then make the next step to say that such a way is how it must be exclusively, we err.Again I will quote Campbell:"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"And I don't think that it so much matters that, at the time, Campbell understood this statement as pertaining to manifestations of conviction like falling on the floor, loosing your mind, etc. it is the spirit of the statement that he was making. it is that attitude that he had. the attitude that says, "I don't care that this is something totally uncomfortable and not clearly Biblical and maybe never even happened before in all of history, I won't limit God. I dare not!" I find it so interesting that the same people who make the claim "we absolutely must not accept anything that is not in the Scriptures" can say in the same night "Revival is this way and that way." Because the only Biblical revival of the CHurch that we have in Scripture is in Acts. and what happened at the outset of that one? Was the onlooking world impressed and drawn in by the dignity, soberness, and solemness of the men? No, they thought they were drunk at first. Then they saw the power, felt the fire, and flocked into God's arms.WHo are we to say that God can't revive His people the way He wants to? At times make them drunk with joy? we can only even possibly say this, in any fairness (according to our own standards), if Scripture clearly expresses it. One cannot hold to this line of thinking:1. We must not go beyond the Scriptures.2. I understand and know how revival must look and be like.It is simply a logical impossibility. Is such a one not looking at how God has revived people and places in the past (extra-Biblical) and then claiming that such a way is the only way He can do it from now on? Or that it must at least be similar to how it has been before? Why couldn't have God, in His sovereignty, for His own reasons, have decided to bless His people with joy and laughter and signs and wonders, etc? Why not? Is there anything in the BIble that says that for God to do so would be a contradiction or incorrect or that such a thing could not be from God? Quoting Maria:"39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.40 But all things must be done properly AND IN AN ORDERLY MANNER." 1 Corinthians 14:6-40 Once again, we must examine every statement and compare it with Scripture.If you (I speak to people in general, not to one specific person) want to "roll on the floor" etc., the best thing to do would be to do it in secret -- where your heavenly Father is most glorified.Quoting Campbell:"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"One also cannot hold to this line of thinking:1. Doing things in an orderly manner is the only way a church service must be held.2. It is ok for things to get disorderly if it is due to conviction of sin.3. It is not ok for things to get disorderly if it's due to joy.4. It's ok to roll on the floor in conviction but not ok to do so in joy.Again, that line of reasoning is logically unsound (as best I can see it).

"Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I dont like that quote that much. Scripture is very important and cannot be contridicted and maligned. Even though in revivals God does new things he never, I repeat never goes against his revealed word."i think that perhaps you misunderstood Campbell right here. He wasn't saying that "forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture" is a good thing, but that it is what was happening "in this age of desperate apostasy." So in that time (maybe our time, let's see what the polls say), people were forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture. As far as I can tell Campbell would be contradicting himself if he were saying that "forsaking all the fundamental truths of Scripture" was a good thing.

…………………Quote:”To me it seems to support the idea that, unless the Bible is clearly against it, then there is room to love those who are involved in it.”………………….Actually, whether the Bible is against it or not, we ARE to love these people. But love is not blind – love is Truth, for “God is Love” 1 John 4:8………………………Quote:”And on top of that (well, acually along the same lines), there is room to believe and hope that it's true (love).”……………………..Why believe and hope that a manifestation is real? The only purpose of God working signs and wonders is to give a further demonstration of His power – it’s not an end, but a means to display His wonder!! Instead of believing and hoping the manifestation is real, why not believe and hope that the people who are involved are coming to a fuller understanding of Who Jesus Christ is? Someone once asked my brother how much false doctrine one could believe before he went to hell. My brother’s answer surprised even himself. He said, “It’s not about how much false doctrine one believes, none of us have it “all.” The question is are you believing (trusting in, relying upon, clinging to) a doctrine OR are you believing (trusting in, relying upon, clinging to) Jesus Christ? Because if you are believing upon Jesus Christ, no matter what happens, you will believe Him. Even if your doctrine is wrong. But if you are believing upon your doctrine, than if/when it is tested and proven wrong, you will fall away.”This is a true statement. The problem is, that many aren’t even led to the REAL Jesus Christ! They are led to “Another Jesus”, another “Christ” who only caters to fleshly desires. (Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.) Is God a big God and can He rescue those whose hearts are truly yearning for truth? Absolutely! But the Scripture also says: Many shepherds have ruined My vineyard, They have trampled down My field; They have made My pleasant field A desolate wilderness. It has been made a desolation, Desolate, it mourns before Me; The whole land has been made desolate, Because no man lays it to heart. Jeremiah 12:10 -11I don’t think anyone on this forum does not love and show love to those who are in these movements. Jesus, Paul, and pretty much everyone else in Scripture pointed out Truth and untruth. And their phrases didn’t always sound loving – but oh how they loved!! They laid down their lives for the Brethren – in life and death.I do not think anyone on this forum thinks they “have it all” either – if any of us do, we need to repent!……………….Quote:“the only Biblical revival of the Church that we have in Scripture is in Acts.”…………………Not true! What about when Ezra read the Book of the Law to the people in Nehemiah? That had to be one of the greatest revivals of all time!! (And it was brought about because the Word of God was proclaimed: Christ!) There are so many, if I started listing them, it would take all night!! Do we even know what revival is anymore? ………………….Quote:“and what happened at the outset of that one? Was the onlooking world impressed and drawn in by the dignity, soberness, and solemness of the men? No, they thought they were drunk at first. Then they saw the power, felt the fire, and flocked into God's arms.……………………..I’ve grown to greatly dislike the term, “revival.” It is so abused! Did the writer of Acts say, “there was a great revival that day?” Not that I know of… He said: “And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.” Acts 2:47 This was a true revival!It wasn’t the outward signs that caused people to repent at Pentecost – while God DOES work signs and wonders, it is not His intention for us to camp there – it’s not for a show, but a demonstration of His power. And if the fruit of light (“goodness, righteousness and truth”) is not evident within the lives of the people who experienced that sign or a wonder, (and in the people performing it) it wasn’t God. It is not signs and wonders, or joyful dancing or painful sighing that produces revival. It is the proclamation of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection – the scriptures being unfolded, people understanding – these types of things that classify a true “revival.” …………………….Quote:“should we be so certain about what revival is and what it looks like and how it must be, etc, based on the understandings of man and history (and not soley on the Bible) and we then make the next step to say that such a way is how it must be exclusively, we err.”………………….You are right, we shouldn’t look back to Acts (or any other book) and think God to do the very same thing again – He rarely (if ever) does anything the same way. “Who has know the mind of the Lord that they may instruct Him?” BUT “We have the mind of Christ.” In other words, while we cannot say “God will do it this way, and that way” the instructions on Christian living, and how things should be conducted in the church are clearly explained in the New Testament writings. If we stop heeding those writings, we may as well throw our Bibles away. ……………………Quote:I find it so interesting that the same people who make the claim "we absolutely must not accept anything that is not in the Scriptures" can say in the same night "Revival is this way and that way."Quote:"I don't care that this is something totally uncomfortable and not clearly Biblical and maybe never even happened before in all of history, I won't limit God. I dare not!"………………….My problem is not as much that “oh, well this wasn’t in the Bible” as it is “Oh, the Bible said when this happened that we are not supposed to heed it, it’s a delusion.” The problem is, what they are doing IS in the Bible – and we are warned to stay away from it. This is not limiting God. It’s taking Him at His Word.………………..Quote:Who are we to say that God can't revive His people the way He wants to? At times make them drunk with joy?………………….God will revive His people the way He wants to. And He fills them with joy! David danced before the Lord with all of His might!! But, Paul writes, 26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. 1 Corinthians 14:26-40…………………Quote:Is such a one not looking at how God has revived people and places in the past (extra-Biblical) and then claiming that such a way is the only way He can do it from now on? Or that it must at least be similar to how it has been before? ……………….God won’t necessarily do things the same way, but His way will always produce the same result: repentance and the fruit of “goodness, righteousness and TRUTH.” He is after the hearts of men and women. ………………Quote:Quoting Campbell:"May God help us, may God have mercy upon us. Who are we to dictate to Almighty God as to how He is going to work?"……………………….Are you saying that obeying the letter the Apostle Paul wrote would be dictating God? I’m not sure what you mean by that.………………….Quote:”One also cannot hold to this line of thinking:1. Doing things in an orderly manner is the only way a church service must be held.2. It is ok for things to get disorderly if it is due to conviction of sin.3. It is not ok for things to get disorderly if it's due to joy.4. It's ok to roll on the floor in conviction but not ok to do so in joy.”…………………I don’t think anyone said those things. It’s the fruit of these movements that worries me.I think this is a good conversation for all of us to have!!If you want to hear a good message, listen to “Discerning the Fellowship of Jesus Christ.” It’s in the Carter Conlon section on this website.In His Love,Maria

Oh I forgot something!............Quoting Todd:One cannot hold to this line of thinking:1. We must not go beyond the Scriptures................Ummm... Paul says specifically that we are not to exceed what is written.1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

1 Corinthians 4:6"...that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written..."If we are to take this verse in the sense that it seems some might feel inclined to, I see some clear problems.1. Anything written after that point (i.e. anything in the New Testament written after 1 Corinthians) would be deemed incorrect for us to believe in or even support. Because if Paul was saying in that verse that, from that point on, they were not to exceed what was written (in the way some are taking it) then they would have to reject the remainder of the New Testament (anything that was written later). At best, the only counter-argument I can imagine would be to say that Paul was speaking prophetically of the entire Canon. But that, at best, is mere speculation and opinion, not doctrine. 2. Even if we say that Paul was meaning to include the Canon of Scripture, we still have problems. SInce I just listened to Carter COlon's message, I will list a few examples from there. a. Having a pulpit b. The term "Revival" c. Altar Call d. Repetitious Prayer (where you have those who want to accept Jesus to repeat what you are saying)These things are not mentioned in the Scriptures (at least I don't think so) and therefore, according to the way i am perceiving some understand 1 Cor. 4:6, they are going beyond (exceeding) what is written. 3. The term "trinity" is exceeding what is written.Now, if we take 1 Cor. 4:6 simply to mean that things are not to contradict what has been written, that seems correct to me, although it is not clear that this is what Paul is saying. The verse in Revelation seems pretty clearly to be simply speaking of that specific writing (i.e. "of this book") and it would only, once again, be mere speculation and personal opinion to understand it as referring to the entire Canon. ANd if it were speaking of such, we would have to judge the term "trintiy", and a host of other extra-Biblical terms and practices as a violation of this verse.Maria, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to explain. The key is "line of thinking". You must look at the all the points mentioned to follow the line of thinking. I was simply pointing out how one cannot hold to a series of statements mentioned, without contradiction. I was not arguing for one point by itself. I was saying that you can't believe all those points listed without being in contradiction.

Quote Maria:"Actually, whether the Bible is against it or not, we ARE to love these people. But love is not blind – love is Truth, for “God is Love” 1 John 4:8"You are correct here. I was unclear. What I meant was that, as long as what they are doing is not clearly going against Scripture, then there is room to hope and believe, which are fundamental elements of love. Yes, we shouldn't just believe everything we hear, but hoping the best and believing should be our initial response to something new. At least that is how I have come to understand love. Love is also patient. It is not loving to rashly judge a man, ministry, or manifestation because it doesn't seem right. Or because you saw something on the internet, or t.v., or read it in a book. Patience will seek the truth about something by going to the source and asking questions in humility. For example, if you have trouble with what is going on in Toronto, don't say anything bad about it until you go there yourself and check it out and ask questions. ask them how they understand the Scriptures that you think they are violating. that's being loving (patient). Go with hope in your heart that you are just misunderstanding the situation or that these people, while they may be violating Scripture, truly love God and are trying to seek HIm and let HIm have His way with them. Hope that good will come out of the situation. Hope that you can come to an understanding of their viewpoint, even if you don't agree with them. that's also being fair and righteous in your judgement and discernment of the situation. Just say to them, "I saw this or heard this about you or your church and wanted to know how you can be ok with it." then you can start a dialoge. Be patient, hopeful, believing (at least going in), and longsuffering with these people.

I have to say that you are right in saying that the "exceeding what is written" verse was out of context -- my brother and I discussed this recently. My point was that we cannot exceed what is written in that things cannot blatantly go against scripture and be OK. But, that was not my main point so hopefully everyone will read what I wrote before I posted that.About visiting Toronto, I don't need to. I've seen the videos, and it would NOT be loving for me to go and subject myself to that. I suggest you listen to a message by Carter Conlon, entitled RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! "Curiosity killed the cat" he says, and I agree. The bible says not to "touch what is unclean" and to get away from the false altars. "We cannot partake of the cup of the Lord and of the cup of demons."Really, all I need to say, I have already said. If you don't agree, I am greatly sorry. The truth is, I love these people more than I think you can possibly imagine. But love is not blind, love is Truth. Everything is in scripture, and these ministries are opposing what is written. The leaders are clearly leading even sincere people astray. Paul says that the delusions in the last days would be so strong that even the elect of God might be deceived. And Jesus says "SEE TO IT that no one misleads you."Todd, God loves you and me and everyone involved in these ministries...that doesn't make them right, and that DOESN'T mean we should experiment and hope that they are right. I can hope that what goes on in Isalm is ok till I'm blue in the face and that won't make it Truth. No matter how sincere people are, if what is happening is not founded on TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS, than it will fall, being built on the sand.All through the old and new testament things and people were arising as counterfeits of God...they resemble God, but they aren't God. I'll be praying for you!MariaP.S. A good book to get that I never could get through because it was so sad is "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hannegraff (Sp?)

MariaP.S. A good book to get that I never could get through because it was so sad is "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hannegraff (Sp?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, definetly recommended.(As well as "Christianity in Crisis"/ Hanegraaff) Helped me tremendously as I came out of that type of stuff.I owe a debt of gratitude to Hank and the Bible Answer Man broadcast for opening my eyes to the false teachings of our times. It made me really start pressing into the scriptures more. He has taken a lot of flack for his stand and I have to applaud him for his courage to do so.Great dialogue you all have going here.crsschk

Quoting Maria:"Really, all I need to say, I have already said."Ok, that may be true and if you feel like you don't want to say more about this topic that's your own deal and is understandable. But in light of your statement, it would seem appropriate for me to now ask for your continued dialogue concerning these things. So, while you may have said all you "needed" to, I would very much appreciate more of your thoughts.Quote:"I have to say that you are right in saying that the "exceeding what is written" verse was out of context -- my brother and I discussed this recently. My point was that we cannot exceed what is written in that things cannot blatantly go against scripture and be OK.""Everything is in scripture..."I am confused about how you can make these two statements in your post. First, it seems you are admitting that there are things that are not in Scripture, then you are saying something else. COuld you please explain your view more clearly on this?Quote:"Everything is in scripture, and these ministries are opposing what is written. The leaders are clearly leading even sincere people astray."I don't think that it would be right of you to not follow through with this statement. Will you get more specific so that the truth of your statement can be assessed? What specific ministry are you addressing (let's just start somewhere, TOronto if you would like) and where, specifically, is it opposing what is written? Which leaders are "clearly" leading people astray and what specific evidence do you have for this? Quote:"Todd, God loves you and me and everyone involved in these ministries...that doesn't make them right, and that DOESN'T mean we should experiment and hope that they are right."I agree with the first part, and am unclear on the second. Yes, God loving everyone does not mean that everyone is right. And I am not saying that we should blindly "experiment" (a word I would not use) or even hope that they are right. Like I said earlier, we should give them the benefit of the doubt that, even if ther are wrong, their intentions are good. This should be our intial reaction to new or different areas of discernment that come up concerning divine things. If we then engage them or the situation with love and it turns out that what they are doing is wrong, and they know it, and they are choosing to continue in their sin anyway, and they are leading people astray, and we have done what we could to try and turn them around, and whatever other steps God would lead us through in love, then, maybe, we might consider speaking publicly about the faults. Until tremendous effort has been made towards the subject, (not simply watching video footage or reading a book) actually engaging with the real people involved (or those who believe or follow them), we only are engaging in lazy and unrighteous judgement, discernment, gossip and slander (that is, if we openly condemn it). THis is my strong conviction. WE can have our negative opinions, but we cannot go around expressing them unless we have earned the right through much effort brought about and sustained by love. This, I believe, universally holds true unless God gives supernatural discernment (which I believe is much rarer than is commonly thought). But that is a whole nother talk.Quote:"I can hope that what goes on in Isalm is ok till I'm blue in the face and that won't make it Truth."That is true, hoping doesn't make it true. Hoping doesn't make anything true. Nothing "makes" anything true. either it's true or it's not. In fact, hoping that "what goes on in Islam is ok" doens't make you more loving towards them. But hoping that their intentions are good or that they are just being mislead and that they are a product of their culture, etc. is loving. That is how "hoping all things" works in that situation I think.Here's a good example of love and how it hopes and believes all things. If you see a fat man in church whom you don't know, you can: a. Choose to believe that they are probably a lazy and undisciplined person who loves food too much. b. Choose to believe they have a genetic predisposition to being overweight or that they are a new believer and trying to lose weight or that God hasn't really convicted them too much about that area of their life yet but has been working on the most important part (the inside). Can you pick which person loved the man? Now if later on you get to know this man and you learn from hanging out with him that he is just lazy and gluttonous, then it's ok for you to believe that about him, but it won't really profit anything. If you have learned that he is such, you can continue to love him by asking him what he thinks about that and trying to help him, etc. Then being patient and longsuffering comes in. The big difference with Islam is, these people don't claim the name of Jesus. They aren't claiming to believe what Christians believe. They don't claim to believe the whole Bible. Most of these ministries we refer to do believe those things. THerefore, since they make those claims, we can hope that it's true. Like you say, none of us "have it all", so let's not act like it. Let's get specific if we think we have a correct understanding of a doctrine or situation. Let's not be afraid to discuss it with humility and the possibility that our views may change. These people are saying they do believe "the truth as it is in Jesus." So, if you think they are incorrect, I would like to know why. Because, to be honest, I am not convinced either way, and I would like to keep thinking about it. Please be as specific as possible about your reasons for your understandings. State the exact statement made and your source. Toronto or Pensacola would probably be the best place to start because I have some contacts with those movements. WHo knows what might happen if we really dig in to this. I mentioned Toronto, you said you've seen the video's, so let's talk about it now. You didn't bring up the name, I did, so you don't have to necessarily defend yourself, but I am asking to hear you view more clearly.