Reincarnation?

A friend who believes in reincarnation recently sent me this. I thought it might be profitable to see what SI-ers thought about it."See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the LORD you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:1)"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes." (Malachi 4:5)But the angel said to him "do not be afraid, Zechariah; your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John…And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah…to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."(Luke 1:13,17) Then three times Jesus assures his disciples that John the Baptist really was Elijah returned:"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."(Mark 9:13)"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."(Matt 11:13-14)"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him…" Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Matt 17:12-13)

I think the words of Jesus from the Matthew 11 quote are significant here..."if you are willing to accept it". He probably said this because what was about to follow was going to shake their current beliefs, it would not be what they were expecting. I believe the Jews were in fact expecting Elijah to appear in person but Jesus was saying, no, John was the fulfillment of the promise of Elijah, but can we take this to mean Elijah was reincarnated? Looking at 2 Kings 2 may be helpful here. In verse 9 Elisha asked for a double portion of Elijah's spirit to be upon him. After Elijah is raptured and Elisha returns to the other prophets they say, "the spirit of Elijah doth rest upon Elisha" (verse 15). Now, both Elijah and Elisha were alive at the same time so obviously they aren't the same person. However, they had the same spirit and power come upon them as certain men of the Old Testament were said to have.So when Jesus said this is Elijah who is to come, He's wasn't saying this is a reincarnated Elijah, He's was saying the spirit that came upon Elijah, which was passed on to Elisha, is the same spirit that came upon John Baptist, just as the angel said to John's father, "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:17) John and Elijah were like men, but not the same man. They both had the power to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children.In Christ,Ron

Hi Ron,I recall an old lecture by Dr. Roy Blizzard that was given at Jack Hayford's church in the 80's that was part of one my classes at the Institute. I will try to simplify this to save space. When John Baptist had appeared on the scene the Jews had been hemmed in by the Mosiac Law as a shepherd would use stones or the side of a cliff and some other available objects to protect the sheep from predators and to keep them from wandering off when bedding down for the night. There are other metaphors used in scripture to symbolize this; one of which is the law as our schoolmaster.In the fullness of time God sent forth the Great Shepherd which, his sheep would hear his voice and another they would not follow, etc. The role of John Baptist was to prepare the path and 'point to' or 'signal' the arrival of this Good Shepherd also known as The Breaker (Hebrew is poretz).This was prophesied in Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 62:10.Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. (62:10)He goes through the gate to prepare the way. He takes the stones out from the sheepfold door (Isaiah 40; Micah 2:12, 13). Some have mistaken John Baptist as the Breaker, but he was only to point to the breaker:The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (Isaiah 40:4)One of the Messianic roles of our Lord is that He was called is the poretz, or breaker. This I believe is the best explaination for the passage in Matthew 11:12:And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (11:12)This corresponds to Micah 2:13:The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them. (2:13)From the days of John Baptist until now the "door of the sheepfold" has come- which is in my understanding is to say "His flesh" which was rent. Some have translated the passage to mean, "The Kingdom of the heavens suffereth violence and the violent are breaking out by means of it". According to Blizzard the key is in a rabbinic midrash that tells us this refers to Elijah. In this I believe the rabbis are wrong as the passage clearly states that the King will go forth; or in our metaphor the Great Shepherd. The flock was hemmed in inside the Law-, the Breaker goes through before them, then they break out, passing through (Him) the Door of the sheepfold. Hence as Malachi states; "their King goes before them." The sheep have been metaphorically penned up all night sitting in darkness, but those who sat in darkness saw a great light. But before the light came over the blackness and darkness one came to testify of that Light:He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light (John 1:8)As John began to preach the door into the Kingdom began to open and the 'violent' pressed into the Kingdom through the door that the Breaker had made. John did not go through that door as those who are least in the Kingdom of Heaven are greater than he; yet in the Spirit and power of Elijah he was to signal the coming of the Breaker. Since those days the sheep were pushing and shoving, rush through the door and into the open pastures of the Kingdom of Heaven. This, I believe, is how the Kingdom is "taken by force".When asked if he was 'literally' Elijah the Tishbite as some did and still do believe would come he gave an answer:And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (John 1:21-23) So we see then that John Baptist denied being literally Elijah the Tishbite, but was the one spoken of as the forerunner or herald of the coming 'Breaker' of the wall of the sheepfold; to which many would press out 'sheep pen' of the Law and into the wide open pastures of the freedom of the Spirit filled life.

Hi Jake, How much more clear can this be? Its not the spirit of Elijah being sent, but Elijah himself We are moving into some rough eschatological waters here; but suffice it to say that John Baptist makes it clear that he was not Elijah the Tishbite. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (John 1:21-23)

"...it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment."Hebrews 9:27

Hi Jake,I tried to give an explaination of the passage and related passages in the first post. We could dig deeper as the material I have is about 10 pages long on that subject; what I posted was merely a synthesis. However, I still do not believe one could deduce from the passages that reincarnation had taken place. The passages do not support a wooden literal interpretation. If I were to say, "it is raining cats and dogs" I am using figurative language. Our Lord said, "If you will receive it, this is Elijah which was for to come." This is indicative of figurative language alluding to the passages I mentioned in the first post. John Baptist said that he was not Elijah the prophet (Tishbite). Also at the mount of transfiguration we have Moses and Elijah again. It would make no sense to suggest that Elijah became John Baptist became Elijah again. There are some who hold to the belief that Elijah will leterally come before the Second Advent of Christ as one of the "two witnesses". But this is part of that eschatological rough waters issue I was referring to.

Rember how ole' Jeremiah prophesied to king Zedekiah how he would go bound to babylon then Ezekial prophesied that Zedekiah wouldn't see Babylon. Zedekiah mad fun of the two prophets and said they missed it with God . The historical fact turned out to be Zedekiah having his eyes plucked out , then bound and taken to Babylon. God watched over His word to perform it. I personally believe Elijah will come literally not re-encarnated. How? I have no idea , but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.BTW Enjoyed what you guys posted in defense of the truth, Good Job :-)

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him…" Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Matt 17:12-13)Robert, So, are you saying Jesus and Malachi are wrong? Something is wrong here; one source or the other. Perhaps John the Baptist just didn't understand. Few people remember past lives (but many children reportedly do.)Fascinating! The bits of the Bible that you say are figurative, we say are literal while the bits of the Bible we say are figurative, you say are literal.There is a key reference to John Baptist in “And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.” (Mark 9:11-13, KJVS)Elijah's ministry was one of 'restoration'. His work restored Israel to its place of decision in the presence of God. At this time the nation was split into two, but Elijah still builds his altar with 12 stones and makes his sacrifice synchronised to Jerusalem time.“And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name: And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed. And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood. And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time. And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.” (1Kings 18:31-36, KJVS) His actions brought the nation back to their beginnings. His admonition to the nation...“And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.” (1Kings 18:21, KJVS) is an echo of an earlier event when Joshua gathered the people into the valley between Ebal and Gerizim and called upon them to...“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15, KJVS) Elijah had brought the nation back spritually to this same point in time; it was the nation's crisis decision.John came in the 'spirit and power of Elijah' (Luke 1:17). Just as Elisha received Elijah's mantle to indicate his succeeding to the role that Elijah had filled, so now, John Baptist will come as another 'successor' to Elijah, not as Elijah personally but the man marked out as Elijah's successor in as clear a way as the mantle had marked out Elisha.John Baptist's ministry brought the God-consciousness of the nation to its highest sensitivity since the times of Joshua and Elijah. It is recorded of John that ...“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,” (Matt. 3:5, KJVS) This was the 'biggest' revival in the nation's history. He did his work of preparing a people for the coming King. This is all easily missed because the life and ministry of Christ has the same effect on John's ministry as does the rising sun on the morning star; it decreases until it is no longer visible. However the testimonies of Christ to John are extraordinary; “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matt. 11:11, KJVS)“He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.”(John 5:35, NKJV)It is true, as Christ expressed it, John had 'restored all things'. This was Israel's moment and they were perfectly prepared for it by John, but when it came to the 'Choose this day', they chose Barabbas.Symbolically, John dressed as Elijah (compare 2Kings 1:7-8 with Matt. 3:4) and recall that John was a Nazarite who had not cut his hair from birth. But John was NOT Elijah's reincarnation; he was the fulfillment of the ministry of which Elijah had been a figure.Using the same logic bubbaguy would have to conclude that Jesus was a reincarnation of David! “For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.” (Jer. 30:8-9, KJVS)“And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.”(Ezek. 34:23-24, KJVS)“Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.”(Hos. 3:5, KJVS) These prophecies came 500 years after David's death and all promise the return of 'David'. Except, it is not a reincarnation of David in prospect, but the man who was the fulfillment of all that David had prefigured. So also with Elijah and John Baptist.

:-) Brother Ron, I knew you'd come bail us out. I love to read your posts! But don't get a big head :-) . It seems when I read some of your stuff the lights turn on and missing pieces fall into place and things become clearer.

It didn't look as though you were sinking to me! The heart of the answer was in the short post by Paul from the Netherlands. “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,” (Heb. 9:27, NKJV) One life, one death, one judgement, one destiny...The rest was trimmings... :-)