Trinity Debate: Need Help

Hey all,I have been engaged in a debate over the trinity of which I believe to be true. These scriptures were raised as defense against it:1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.How do I explain this and still maintain the credability of the bible?Thanks,Blake

Now, I'm not a pro but I would reinforce where Jesus is said to be God. Here's the ones I use most commonly:John 1:1, put together with John 1:14.John 8:58, where Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", which is a referance to Ex 3:14My personal favorite- works well with Jehova's Witnesses, also. These three go together.Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, right?Revelation 22:13, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, right?Revelation 2:8, "These are the words of him who is the First and The Last, who died and came to life again." So the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is the Lord God, right? Well, when did God die and come to life? Jesus Christ!Anyway, tell us how it goes. I'd like to know more about what is said- on both sides. Grace and Peace...

Hi beenblake. i'm not sure what their argument is in reference to the Trinity here ... Are they saying that God can't be Triune because the Father is above the Son, and the Son above the Holy Spirit (although He's not even mentioned here)? ... If that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... i heard a preacher say once that the Bible itself is a trinity, as we His image creation are also ... He said in scripture there's the OT (the dispensation of the Father), the Gospels (the dispensation of the Son), and the NT (from the Acts, the dispensation of the Holy Spirit) ... And that when it comes to us we're spirit, soul and flesh ... When i'm attempting to get someone to understand that God is one in three, and three in one first off i pray God the Holy Spirit's (3) blessing, direction and wisdom in the explaining because He knows the deep things of God (1 & 2) ...1Cor.2:10 - But God (1 & 2) hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit (3): for the Spirit (3) searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God (1 & 2). That's why Christ (2) prayed the Father (1) to send the Holy Spirit (3) to us after His (2) departure ...John.14:[16] And I (2) will pray the Father(1), and He (1) shall give you another Comforter (3), that He (3) may abide with you for ever; [26] But the Comforter (3), which is the Holy Ghost (3), whom the Father (1) will send in my name (2), He (3) shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (2) have said unto you.John.15:[26] But when the Comforter (3) is come, whom I (2) will send unto you from the Father (1), even the Spirit (3) of truth, which proceedeth from the Father (1), He (3) shall testify of me (2): How i like to explain the Trinity is that the Father (1) is the Source (the very Will of the Godhead), thatJesus Christ (2) is the Course (the Word of the Fathers Will), and Holy Spirit (3) the Force (He that does only the Will of the Father (1) via the Word of the Son (2) ...John.16:[13] Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth (3), is come, He (3) will guide you into all truth: for He (3) shall not speak of Himself (3); but whatsoever He (3) shall hear (from 1 by 2), that shall He speak: and He (3) will shew you things to come.So scripture tells us that even though God the Son (2) calls God the Father (1) both His Father and His God, designating from His (2) on lips that the Father (1) is above Him (2), and that He (2) came to do the Will of the Father (1) He (2) says this in ... John.6:[38] For I (2) came down from heaven, not to do mine (2) own will, but the will of Him (1) that sent me.John.10:[27] My sheep hear My (2) voice, and I (2) know them, and they follow me: [28] And I (2) give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My (2) hand.[29] My Father (1), which gave them Me (2), is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's (1) hand. [30] I and my Father are one. Ouch! ... (2) is saying that (1) is greater than He (2), Holy Spirit (3) and anyone/thing else ... (2) puts it right down front that the Father is #1, but then states that (2) + (1) = (1) ... (2) states of (3) in John.15:[26] that (3) "proceedeth from" the Father (1) ... i've always found it fascinating that God in the OT appears as one, but Elohim is plural, like cherub (singular) to cherub-im (more than one) ... From the vantage point of where we now sit in having the Gospels and the NT in explanation, it almost seems (to me) like even back then God was giving a hint to His triuness, that the Eternal One, the I Am that I Am, was actually more than One ... What a mighty, wondrous and loving God we serve who would reveal such an eternal mystery as His own personal intimate makeup to the point that we now know and commune with all three members of the Godhead (3) ... That God the Father (1) would reveal and send God the Son (2) for the benefit of our salvation, and then send God the Holy Spirit (3) to empower us to be earthly servants, representatives, ambassodors, and proclaimers of (2), who always point to (1) ... Man, what a program huh? ... Lastly, this is my all time favorite scripture when it comes to explaning the Trinity ...Mark.1:[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus (2) came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit (3) like a dove descending upon Him (2): [11] And there came a voice (1) from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son (2), in whom I (1) am well pleased. All three members of the Godhead in operation at once! Hope this helps ... And for anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity i've not posted this to argue back and forth, this is just how i believe in and see God's Triuness ... Blessings in Christ Jesus! ... :-D

We are getting into deep water here but technically...f that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... ...is heresy. hierarchy |?h???r??ki| noun ( pl. -chies) a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority. • ( the hierarchy) the upper echelons of a hierarchical system; those in authority : the magazine was read quite widely even by some of the hierarchy. • an arrangement or classification of things according to relative importance or inclusiveness : a taxonomic hierarchy of phyla, classes, orders, families, genera, and species. • ( the hierarchy) the clergy of the Catholic or Episcopal Church; the religious authorities. • Theology the traditional system of orders of angels and other heavenly beings. Hierarchy was 'chain of command' rule. You can create a business org chart of an hierarchy. Trinity is something quite different. It is tri-unity with Father, Son and Spirit being 'co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal'. 'co-' cannot be hierarchical. It is impossible to create an org chart of the Trinity.The Athanasian creed was a reaction against the heresies of its day but if you strip out the doctrinaire elements you still have a good statement, though not one you are likely to use in your evangelism. ;-) The Athanasian Creed has the sentence:He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. That is a very careful steer around the 'heresy' of hierarchy.The Three Classic Creeds of Christendom are The Apostles' CreedThe Nicene CreedThe Athanasian Creed

Thanks bro. Ron ... i will look into the creed links you provided ... But as it stands now i guess i've got a big H (for heretic) branded on my rear :-P ... Because i take literally what Christ said here ...John.14:[28] - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. i looked up "greater" in the Webster's but i remember you telling me a while back that i shouldn't look up biblical definitions in a secular dictionary, so perhaps you may have a source of definition that will clear up my thinking that greater means ... well "greater" ... predominant ... i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth ... But Christ was in heaven in His full second person of the God head glory when He gave the Revelation to John, but Scripture says that God the Father gave it to God the Son first, to pass it on ... All throughout Scripture i see the Father as the Will of the Trinity, Christ as the Word of the Will, and Holy Spirit as the mover and shaker of the Will via the Word ... Although i know all three are God, i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit in that the Word don't say nothing other than the Will of the Father, and Holy Spirit don't do nothing unless He hears it from heaven ... Like this statement you made "Jesus is an earth-time name which the Word chose" over on the other thread ...Creation of Jesushttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7821&;forum=35 If i'm in error i pray God to deliver me from it, but until such a time ...well here goes me showing off my big H again, but i don't believe that God the Word chose to call Himself His earthly name but God the Will (the Father did) ... Seeing the Trinity as a hierarchy may get me in trouble with those who don't, but even if i discarded that word i'd still have to say that i believe the Father to be "predominant" and somewhat "superior" in the Godhead for Him to always be the One calling the shots, being the Will, and the other two members acting and reacting accordingly ...

i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son. i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from own particular convictions here. I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity.

Bro. Ron you're a wealth of info ... Thank you! ... You wrote;"This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son."Now i gotta go look up info on Origen ... Hmmmm ... and to find out which Church excommunicated Him ... God is good, as now i'll now what to be prepared for in this arena, for until He shows me otherwise then yes i believe in a heirarchal Trinity ...You continued;"I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from your own particular convictions here."No, at the time i heard this it was by another brother, an older brother in the congregation who believedthat the Father is "greater", to the dismay of the pastor who attempted to tell the brother that Christ said this because He was on earth at the time ... I remember thinking that i agreed with the older brother, but was much to afraid to say so then ... As you can see, i'm no loger afraid ... But as i said if i;m wrong i pray God will straighten me out about Himself ...You ended;"I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity."No bro Ron i've not taken it as you trying to persuade me ... But i am appreciative that now i have some studying to do and am looking forward to seeing whether the research changes my view or further entrenches it ...i love this SI Forum, for i can get no such depth of topics and discussion from anyone in the circle of saints i'm around ... But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?Blessings!

But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense. “who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;” (Phil. 2:6-7, ASV) Submission must be voluntary or it is not submission. He did not do this out of 'duty' but out of love for our race. And the Father's love is measured in that He allowed the Word to submit to the will of God.

To me the servanthood of Christ was God's way of showing He was and is willing to submit to the rules He created. The Scriptures also say that, "For he hath made him to be sin for us." So Jesus should not have have been broken since He did nothing wrong. God just volunteered to do so. Likewise, God sent Himself, this person being the Son, to put on flesh that was cursed.God seemingly shouldn't put on cursed flesh, but He did. Like a king putting on rags.This shows His ability to be more that one person simultaneously, as well as His ability to create through all three persons of the trinity. Also it shows that Father recognized Jesus as flesh, as well as Jesus being God. God was well pleased with Jesus, but also turned His back on the Son, to forsake the sins of the flesh. The acts Jesus did defy all the laws of science and what should be. By our standards, He should have destroyed evil, but He rather paved a way for us. He will do the destroying during the second visit.The submission of Jesus to the Father shows me what all flesh should do before God: submit. So no flesh will glory in God's presence, not even that flesh that Christ was in. Rather the God that was in the flesh of Christ took glory. The flesh took the punishment, while the Spirit of Christ ascended in a glorified body.The Son was God with us, the Spirit is God in us. The Spirit inside of us is 100% God. The Holy Spirit cannot sin. That Spirit that prevails in us will receive glory in heaven at the judgment, not anything of the flesh. Jesus was 100% flesh, and 100% God. The Spirit is 100% God, but was given by a glorified Jesus who overcame the flesh. Flesh is corrupted by the work of Satan, but God has given a way through Christ to 'inject' His Spirit into corrupted flesh. So the Son and Spirit's work is from God. Father and Son are accepting of direct worship. Son and Spirit are in direct contact with flesh. Father and Spirit never came in the flesh. Each person of God does their part in harmony. I see these three persons of God showing us we are supposed to work in unity with the other members of the body of Christ. The Father was never jealous of the Son or the Spirit, but yet all three have constantly worked in perfect unity. I see the trinity as God's way of showing us how to live, as well as his desire to be an integral part of our life. That is the whole beauty of the walk in the Spirit.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Remember that the word "Christ" is Greek for "Anointed", and in Hebrew "Anointed" is "Massiah".This verse is talking about Jesus in his Earthly life. It is also when He was totaly submissive to the Father (not saying that He isn't now, but, they are now unifide) 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Here we must see the word "Lord": kurios {koo'-ree-os}=Definition...1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lorda) the possessor and disposer of a thing1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperorb) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their masterc) this title is given to: God, the MessiahFor Synonyms see entry 5830This word equates Him with God the Father. The fact that God the Father is the only one with these attributes as the Lord Jesus Christ has also. Therefor makes them One in Unity, Perpose and essence.

Bro Ron you wrote;"Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense."Yes, this is pretty much the same thing i heard the preacher say to the older brother about his belief of Christ not being "equal in every sense" to the Father ... But such a reasoning both then and now makes me wonder, because i'd been taught by my own pastor that Christ was God in flesh on Earth, did His being wrapped in flesh make Him less God? ... i came to the conclusion that such reasoning, as you've said you believe my graded view of the Trinity to be, is defective ... Christ on earth, to me, was acting no different toward His Father than He did in Heaven ... To me, in creation, the Father willed it, the Word spoke the will, and Holy Spirit physically brought it to past ... Christ it always seems to me is doing the will of His Father, by speaking forth that will ... So when He came here He let it be known that He came not to do His own will, but the will of the One that "sent" Him ... i bless God for this thread for this has certainly made me pray, seek and more closely define just what i believe about the Trinity ... i suppose it's Christ constant use of the word "sent" that has convinced me that while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...So yes like Origen i do believe Christ to be subordinate to the Father in whatever the sense He meant when He said His Father was "greater" than He ... And so (for me) when Phil. 2 says“who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God", i think Christ was refering to those areas in which He knew Himself to be on the same par as His Father and not the area, which i think has to do with being the all knowing will of the Trinity ... That's whyRev.1: 1 sticks out so much for me - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." ... It has always fascinated me that the final letter(s) to His Bride, we the Church whom Christ said His Father gave to Him, was not written to us by Christ alone, seperate or apart from the Father, but the Father gave Him the Revelation, to give to us ... For me Christ is God the Mediator, what we call down here on earth the "middle-man" ...So yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipotent":1: often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 12: having virtually unlimited authority or influenceMatt.28: [18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.note: Let me say here that i believe had it not been for the fall of man, and God's necessary plan of redemption, there would never have even been a need for the Word to have had to be formally given "all power" in what seems like a new bestowal of the Father to His Son what He already enjoyed in their Oneness ... i could be wrong, but i think that had it not become necessary by Adam's fall for God to intimately reveal His triuness, both creatures of heaven and earth would still only see Him as One in His light, and we wouldn't even be discussing such issues ...And yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipresent":1: present in all places at all timesJohn.1[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[2] The same was in the beginning with God.[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.But no i do not believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omniscient":2: possessed of universal or complete knowledgeMatt.24 - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only"Like Christ statement, i think there are some things that only the Father knows, even in their Oneness, until such time as He reveals it as His "will", and then the other two members of the Godhead know, and react ... So contrary to Origen i don't believe in the independence of the Logos, i think just as Christ said He and His Father are One, and that if we see Him we see the Father also ... i both believe, and concieve the analogy of Father and Son ... And i most certainly don't agree with Origen that Christ is of a different substance than the Father ... i believe both Christ, and Holy Spirit to be God ... If Origen truly believed that Christ was but merely an image comparison or creation to God the Father, and not eternal God Himself as the Logos, then i too think this heretical and would not agree with it ...Now lastly i did find this belief attributed to Origen interesting ..."The Logos is the rational creative principle that permeates the universe. Since God eternally manifests himself, the Logos is likewise eternal. He forms a bridge between the created and uncreated, and only through him, as the visible representative of divine wisdom, can the inconceivable and incorporeal God be known. Creation came into existence only through the Logos, and God's nearest approach to the world is the command to create. While the Logos is substantially a unity, he comprehends a multiplicity of concepts, so that Origen terms him, in Platonic fashion, "essence of essences" and "idea of ideas."i gotta chew on this one some more ... i'm so unfamiliar with so much of the scholarly terminolgy like "Platonic fashion" ...i did do a lot of asking of saints this weekend their thoughts on Christ and Holy Spirit being equal to the Father ... Got a lot of puzzled looks ... Silence on the phone ... Some said they really never thought to much about it ... Some only see Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit are secondary ... But when i began to ask did they think Jesus equal to His Father, i was surprised to find out how many of them refered to the same scripture as myself concerning Christ saying that the Father was greater ... i guess i'm not as alone in my circle as i thought ...Bro Ron i've not posted this as fodder for debate, or in attempts of persuasion, to the contrary - i've posted this out of the thought process this thread, and your comments on Origen, has led me on, and the conclusions i've come to in result ... i still believe as i believed at the onset, but because of this topic my explanation of what and why i believe as i do has certainly been refined ... Anyone interested in a short history of ...Origenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OrigenBlessings all!

while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...So now you see where it has lead you... into a conclusion that Christ never was truly equal with God, and according to this statment, you now include the Holy Spirit in this conclusion. You are not the first person to believe these things but the great classical preachers whose traditional Trinitarian orthodoxy is most represented on this site would have strongly disagreed with you.Your statement, as it stands, is a denial of simple logic. You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has more 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't. There can be no shades in this. If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos.

Perhaps with some liberty...But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)

Bro Ron you wrote;"You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has more 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't."Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ... You finished;"If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos."Call me crazy, but in my mind in the three members of the Godhead if collectively they are three in one, and one in three i have no problem wrapping my tiny brain around the Father being the preimenent and superior One of the Godhead, Christ being the middle One - Logos/Word, and Holy Spirit being the third One - Workman of the Godhead ... i have no problem recognizing and believing in Christ' or Holy Spirit's diety just because i believe Christ points out that the Father is the greater One, and apparently (to me) the all knowing One ... To me the mere fact that Christ and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and One with the Father automatically makes them diety, but as i said to my view the Father seems to always call the shots, while the other two members re-act ...i'll not beat this issue anymore as i've said about all i can say ... But again i say thank you for being one of our Lord's instruments for making me delve into this further, and i pray again that if i'm in error from this He will eventually make my error plain so i can change my way of thinking ... But until that time i'll be believing this issue as i now do ...Keep praying for me brother Ron, as i do you! ... :-D

Bro Mike you wrote;"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)If our Lord made the statement that "the day and hour only the Father knows", but expects me to put together that He was also saying (on the sly) that He knows also because He also made the statement that "I and the Father are one", then He's presented me with a riddle ... God knows i ain't good at riddles, and personally in this instance i don't think He's presented me with one ... So until He makes it plainer to this dim-wit :-P i'm gonna take Him literally at His Word ... Pray for me bro!

As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know.But I can't back this up, just sharing something I've heard. Perhaps this makes sense?

Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ... Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit.

Bro Ron you wrote;"Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit."Well i guess that makes me an "un-orthodox Christian" (which i'm sure is no surprise to you and others on SI ...:-D ), and in the mind of some i'm a heretic (being broad here because i'm not trying to stir the pot anymore than i already have) ... Thank God i'm now not under the early Roman Catholic church and it's popery, or i'd be excommunicated by now for sure, if not burned at the stake ... Thank God for Martin Luther, at least under Protestantism those who may find my view defective won't try to run me outta town on a rail, but will instead pray for my enlightenment ... Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

Thanks Warrior4Jah ... you wrote;"As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know."But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ... Christ in His ministry didn't seem to have any trouble remembering His heavenly home with it's many mansions, His Father, the Holy Ghost, the angels in heaven, why He'd come here and whose will He'd come to do, and that of remembering His seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening ... Seems to me that if He remembered all that, He'd certainly have remembered the day and the hour also, but He said only His Father knew, and that's exactly what i think He meant ...OK i'm done for real now ... it doesn't make sense for me to keep re-hashing an impasse ... As i've said to brother Ron if you think me "blind" in this area, please hold me up in prayer to having my spiritual eyes opened ...Blessings in Christ Jesus ... :-D

Hi Rahman,I hope to encourage you not to give up too quickly, but to study this topic out in greater detail. It is of the utmost importance that we have a right view of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit are both essential doctrines of the Christian faith.Almost all major cults have at their root a false view of Jesus Christ. I think it is one thing to say we don't fully comprehend these things, but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity. The overwhelming testimony of scripture is to the contrary. I have some good notes I would share with you if you are interested. Send me a pm and I'll get it to you somehow. ;-)