Anyone got clarity on habitual sin and salvation?

For me, I don't know where the line is and it's hard to understand alot of what is being talked of without knowing... I think I think too much!...Getting drunk every night (alcoholic) is habitual sin, right?So when you get angry and you say something you shouldn't have, and you then do it again the next month, is that habitual?It seems most people would judge "habitual" by the time frame between sins, but thats legalism 100% (or seems so to me)So can anybody:1. Define habitual sin biblically2. Verify that 1 John 5:18 is talking about habitual sin: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."Im so confused! :-( Thanks guys you are so great...

What did Jesus tell the woman at the well? He told her to go and sin no more and she was a habitual sinner.I'll share with you what came to me as I read your message and ask you to pray honestly about it. Oftentimes, I have asked the question Lord where is the line on particular sin?What I've discovered in my own heart is that it's often an excuse for a much more subtle question which goes something like this, "Lord how much sin can I continue to walk in and still have you?"The answer is very clear. He's not going to let me to walk in any known sin and continue to follow Him. If I do, then He will discipline me (see Hebrews 12). Legalism is where initially I don't obey God and then want to make it up Him with a bunch of rules. Been there and done that and there is no fruit of the Spirit there. God is not interesting in you "trying harder" and merely wants you to submit to Him.The Lord has been changing my heart and now the cry of my heart is "Oh Lord will you take this (whatever the sin in my heart he is dealing with)". Jesus I want you and your way not my own.I've also found that deliverance from any sin never comes until I hate it. So I begin to cry out to God that I still love this and ask Him that He would enable me to hate it. Jesus has been faithful to give me hatred over things I used to love and I thank God for that.Once the hatred has arisen in my heart, He has delivered and all I can say is thank you Jesus. God bless you brother, I pray He does this work in your heart and He will meet you if you have a willing heart.

What about calling it unrepentant sin? When you encounter Jesus, he will convict you of your sin. May I go so far as to suggest that if you have unrepentant sin in your life and you know it, you are not walking with Jesus? Consider Jesus' ministry: how often did he confront people of their sin? Habakuk, I appreciate your post. Thanks for sharing.ginnyrose

"hard sayings" ginnyrose!hard but could well be true... I find it hard to comprehend though: I'll give two examples...I have many friends and spiritual leaders who are great in most areas of their life. However, despite how ever many times I confront them about disobeying the authority God has put in place, they don't find speeding an issue of morality. They say "yes it is wrong" but will still do a consistent 10-15 over the limit whenever late or driving in a group of cars. This could well be classed as a habit that they haven't had the conviction to kick. So because they weren't convicted enough does that mean they aren't doing it with real knowledge? Or are they habitually sinning and it is possible they aren't walking with the Lord at all?Second example: I tend to get frustrated easily. It's nothing like rage or anything down that end of the scale but I can easily get dissapointed and even annoyed at people when they don't meet my expectations. I know this is wrong and I really hate it and I'm trying to change it, but it hasn't happened (fully) yet - I'm making progress. I had to bite my lip again only half an hour ago, but was still frustrated and offended. Knowing that is a sin, I was annoyed anyway and this is a reccuring thing that I'm TRYING to overcome. Even though I'm trying to overcome it, does that mean I'm still habitually sinning? If so, does that conclude that I am not actually walking with the Lord?(These are honest questions, I'm not trying to catch anyone out, I really have asked myself this alot and am seeking answers)

Dear Coops,2. Verify that 1 John 5:18 is talking about habitual sin: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."Let us first look at this scripture in another version of the bible:1 John 5:18 (NKJ)We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.This scripture means exactly what it says. If you are born of God, you do not sin. However, as we all know, Christians sin. In fact, there is not a Christian out there who does not sin. So, how can that be? What does this scripture mean? Many people have said, "Well, it is talking about habitual sin. If you are Christian, then you won't carry on in habitual sin." This is correct to a degree, but not entirely. This statement can be very misleading. I will try to explain this as best as I can, although it can be difficult to understand. When we are born of God, or born again, we are made into a new creation. We are transformed. In this transformation, we die on the cross with Christ. This means all our sins (past, present and future) are forgiven. They are removed. They no longer exist. Not just the sins we committed before salvation, but all our sins. Christ then comes and lives inside of us. He dwells in us as the Spirit of God. We are filled with the Holy Spirit. Only God is good. And so, in order for any person to be good, they must be born again with God living inside of them. They need Jesus.As you know, God will not sin. God is good. He will not do anything evil. When we are born again, we are transformed to the likeness of God. Christ lives inside of us and keeps us from sin. Every sin we commit is forgiven on the cross. (We are free from sin, however, as Paul pointed out this doesn't give us a free ticket to sin.)You must understand that sin is not just an action. It is a condition. Think of sin like a disease. When Adam sinned, he became infected with this disease. It was then passed on to everyone. The only cure for this disease is to be born again, as a new creation, with God living in us. With Christ living in us, we have complete victory over sin. We are no longer a slave to sin and it no longer has any control or power over us. We have been made righteous in Christ, and we are no longer sinners. The disease of sin has been cured in us.So, if all this is true, then why do Christians still sin? There are several reasons for this. Obviously, God gave us free will. Jesus did not take our free will away. Christians sin because they are weak and they give into sin. Many don't realize that Jesus will help them conquer sin. Many people try to conquer sin on thier own. That is why some Christians are slaves to sin. They don't know Christ. However, we must be careful not to judge these people. God is working in thier lives. He has a chisel and is slowly etching away at them. Sometimes people change like night and day when they are born again. Others change over many years. We must be patient with our fellow brothers and sisters, and keep our trust in Christ that He will do the work that He said He will do. Secondly, Christians still sin because the transformation is not complete until we reach Heaven. We have been transformed in Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives inside of us, and our Spirit, what some call the heart, is Holy. Our heart is good. God judges us according to our heart, and since Jesus lives there, it is righteous. And so, we are righteous.However, we also live in flesh. Our flesh is still rotten. And so, our flesh causes us to fall wayward into sin. When we reach Heaven, however, we will have new heavenly bodies. Thirdly, we are at war. The Devil constantly tries to knock us down and decieve us. He is constantly lying to us. As Christians, one of the biggest attacks the Devil makes is to constantly make us feel bad about ourselves. The Devil constantly says, "You are no good. You are worthless. God doesn't love you. Look at you. Look how you sin and how pathetic you are." As Christians, we mess up. We start to believe the Devil and become really guilty. After awhile, we start to doubt our salvation. On the flip side, sometimes we become prideful. We think, "I'll prove that I am not weak. I will exhibit self-control and stop sinning on my own." Both of these situations are bad because they draw us away from God. When we were saved, we called out to Jesus for help. We asked Him to save us. We need to do this everytime we sin even after salvation. We need to call out to Jesus for help. We cannot defeat sin on our own. We need Jesus. We are weak. Christ is strong. 1. Define habitual sin biblicallyThere is no biblical basis for habitual sin. This is a man made concept.The problem with this concept of habitual sin is that people use it to judge thier salvation and others. You might say, "Well that person is not a Christian because look at how they sin habitually." Or some people think, "I can't be saved, because I can't stop sinning." This is a dangerous statement. We should not do this. We are not the judge of salvation. Only Christ is.Rather, if we know someone who is sinning, we should encouragement them not to sin. And if they still continue, we should be careful not to let them drag us into sin. Our goal should always be to draw closer to Jesus.And if we sin, we should always turn to Jesus and ask Him for help. We should not focus on our sins, but rather stay focused on Christ who died for us. It's not about what we do. It's all about what God did. It's not about what we do, it's about who we are. I hope this helps you to understand. In love,Blake

So can anybody:?1. Define habitual sin biblically?2. Verify that 1 John 5:18 is talking about habitual sin: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him." Maybe we can just begin by unpacking 1 John 5:18.1John 3:6 (KJVS) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1John 3:8 (KJVS) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1John 5:18 (KJVS) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. The same verses in Young's Literal translation make start the unpacking...1John 3:6 (YNG) every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him. 1John 3:8 (YNG) he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1John 5:18 (YNG) ¶ We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him; The slight differences here are due to the way that tenses work in biblical Greek. First off, the Greek present tense is really closer to our 'continuous present tense'; this implies not a single action but a process. "he sits" implies either that "he is sitting already" or that as you watch the events "he sits down". In biblical Greek the "he is sitting down already" would be the closest equivalent. If we transpose this idea to the verb 'to sin' we get either "he is sinning" as a continual process or "he sins" meaning I have observed him in the transgression. Biblical Greek definitely implies "he is sinning" as a process or to use your language 'as a habit'. I am a little cautious in my use of the phrase 'habitual sin' simple because it leaves us trying to define 'habitual'. Is once-a-week habitual, or once-a-month? The KJV of 1 John 3:6 has “whosoever sinneth” (1John 3:6, KJVS) where Young's has “every one who is sinning” (1John 3:6, YNG). This where is gets a bit technical... the Greek phrase here is o amartanoœn. This is a construction much used by John in his writings, the word 'amartanoœn' is the present participle of the word 'to sin'. On its own it might be translated 'sinning' but it is preceded by the definite article 'ho' (the) and when that happens the participle begins to do the job of an adjective as it describes 'the one'. It does not sound like very good English but we might translate this 'the sinning one'. In other words 'sinning' describes the characteristic of 'the one'.I will take a little detour to show how this works elsewhere in the scripture. This is from Matthew “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,” (Matt. 3:1, KJVS)Here the word for 'baptist' is a noun, and 'John the Baptist' is a very literal translation of the phrase.This is from Mark“And king Herod heard of him; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.” (Mark 6:14, KJVS)... it is obviously talking about the same person but the phrase is different, this time the word for 'baptist' is a verb, a present participle. Literally, we might translate it 'John, the baptising one'. The words 'the baptising one' are functioning as an adjective; John was 'characterised' by his 'baptising' behaviour.How does this fit into John's letter? the verse1John 3:6 (KJVS) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. is referring to someone who is 'characterised' by his 'sinning' behaviour. This is not 'habitual sin' in the sense of an unshaken 'habit' but a reference to someone whose manner of life is characterised by the fact of his continual 'sinning'. In fact, although it may open up some more questions, there is another way in which we might express it. John frequently refers to 'the believing one' (John 3:15-16,18,36; 6:35,47; 7:38; 11:25; 12:44,46; 14:12; 1John 5:1,5,10) In each of these examples the Greek phrase is "o pisteuoœn"... 'the believing one'. This is not someone who has 'believed once' nor even someone who believes from time to time, but someone whose 'characteristic' is that they 'are believing/relying' on Christ.'the sinning one' of 1 John is similarly, not someone who has sinned once, nor someone who sins from time to time, but someone who life is characterised by the fact that they 'are sinning'. There is more contained 1 John 3:8 but I will let you digest this first.

Dear Coops,So because they weren't convicted enough does that mean they aren't doing it with real knowledge? Or are they habitually sinning and it is possible they aren't walking with the Lord at all?If this were the case, then we would all be doomed. Who could be saved? There is not a Christian out there who walks without sin. This is the true power of God's grace. We must be careful not to judge others who are sinning. It is not our place to judge them. We should encourage them, and pray for them. It is good you confronted them. However, we must trust in Christ. He is thier shepard and King. We must surrender this to Christ, and trust that Jesus will take care of it. Even though I'm trying to overcome it, does that mean I'm still habitually sinning? If so, does that conclude that I am not actually walking with the Lord?It's not about you. Stop making it all about you. It's about Jesus. You are saved, are you not? Stop focusing in on your sins, and keep your focus on Jesus. He has forgiven you. He has transformed you and made you clean. If you focus on Jesus, you will not have time to sin. Your thoughts and your life will be filled with Jesus. However, if you focus on your sins, then you are consumed by them. You start to feel guilty and question your salvation. It keeps your focus away from God, and puts it on yourself. 2 Corinthians 12:7-9 (NLT)7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.Many people say that Paul's thorn was a physical ailment. However, do we need God's grace for physical ailments? Paul needed God's grace. Why? Because He sinned. Paul had a thorn, a secret sin that caused Paul to stay humble. Paul could never say, "I am perfect." Rather, Paul gave Himself to Jesus everyday. The thorn reminded Paul how much He needs Jesus.We should not try to change ourselves or others. Rather, we need to let Christ change us, and let Christ change others. We plant seeds, however, God does the work. I hope this answers some of your questions. May Christ lead you.In love,Blake

This is a meaty thread. Thanks to all.How does one get victory over sin? Is it because I am trying harder?In my earlier years I've been quite legalistic and a religionist as well and yet I had no victory over sin. I'm not saying I'm totally free but Jesus is beginning to deliver me.How is that happening? (Revelations 1:5 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,) We can be free from sin by the blood of Jesus, not because we're trying harder.That's not some deep theological concept but if I could someone free myself from sin why would I need Jesus?

1John 3:6 (KJVS) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1John 3:8 (KJVS) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1John 5:18 (KJVS) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.I had picked out these verses and promised to return to look at 1 John 3:8.Young's renders this:“he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;” (1John 3:8, YNG) That 'doing' is the word translated 'commits' in the KJV. It is a general purpose Greek word: Strongs 4160. poieo which can be translated 'to do' 'to work' 'to execute a function'. What is interesting here is the way it describes Satan as the one, who from the beginnings, 'does/performs sin'. There are other attributes of Satan, which are said to be 'from the beginning' eg “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44, KJVS) This plainly speaks, not of a single act of sin but, of a whole disposition of sin. We have the same idea as the earlier verse that we are reading of someone whose 'characteristic' is that he sins. Just as the reference in Mark to "John, the one baptising' might be translated as "John, the Baptiser". Here we are reading of "Satan, the Sinner" and the one whose life is characterised by the same characteristic or disposition is described as being 'of Satan'. ("of" in this way is one of John's ways of identifying the source: “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Hereby” (1John 3:9-10,16, KJVS)This raises a question about a Ray Comfort concept. If you listen to his methods of sensitising someone to their own sin Ray Comfort asks the question "Have you ever lied?" The answer, of course, will always be 'yes' from which point Ray seems to conclude that the person is now a self-confessed liar. (If I have mistaken him here, please correct me) My question is "does one sin make a person a sinner?" It is something of the old question does sin make me a sinner or did I sin because I was a sinner? There is an old English saying "one swallow does not a summer make" but does one sin make a person a sinner. The word 'sinner' is not used as frequently in the NT as we sometime think (Matt. 9:10-11,13; 11:19; 26:45; Mark 2:15-17; 8:38; 14:41; Luke 5:8,30,32; 6:32-34; 7:34,37,39; 13:2; 15:1-2,7,10; 18:13; 19:7; 24:7; John 9:16,24-25,31; Rom. 3:7; 5:8,19; 7:13; Gal. 2:15,17; 1Tim. 1:9,15; Heb. 7:26; 12:3; James 4:8; 5:20; 1Pet. 4:18; Jude 1:15) and it is frequently used to distinguish someone who is distinctively a 'sinner'; a notorious sinner. To me one of the most significant verses is “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Rom. 5:19, KJVS) At the risk of opening up again the whole question of 'original sin' this plainly states that 'many' sinners came from 'one' sin.I am not trying to minimize the seriousness of 'sins' but I am trying to understand what the Bible teaches about 'sinner-hood'. In my youth a learned to dance, I have danced, I still have the power to dance. BUT I do not dance. Am I a dancer? Is it true, as is so often said, the Christians are 'just saved sinners' or does regeneration have a radical effect upon the nature? In my unregenerate state I sinned, I have sinned, I still have the power to sin BUT am I what the Bible means by a "sinner". Is my identifying characteristic and disposition still to be described as 'a sinner' or am I now a 'saint'?My conviction is that only genuine regeneration can effect this change and someone who 'characteristically' continues to practise his 'sinner-hood' must re-examine these passages in John's letter. John's letter was written as a specific time in history when the visible church was sliding into decadence (before the end of the first century, approx 60 years after Pentecost). This 'church' had begun to experience 'textualism' in the sense that they were making 'biblical statements' but not living 'biblical lives'. This is why John so frequently distinguishes between a person's 'testimony' of lip and a person's 'testimony' of life. "if we say... and do not". Can I remind folks that the Greek present tense is more akin to our 'present continuous' tense. The man or woman whose pattern of life, not a single transgression, is that they 'are committing sin' is 'of the devil, for that is his disposition and characteristic behaviour.“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1John 3:8, KJVS)“he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;” (1John 3:8, YNG)I hope you are beginning to see the pattern in these 1 John verses...

Dear habakkuk3,We can be free from sin by the blood of Jesus, not because we're trying harder.I agree. We need Jesus, not once, but always.Blake

1John 3:6 (KJVS) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1John 3:8 (KJVS) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1John 5:18 (KJVS) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.I think we can turn to the last of these 1 John references now. It's interesting to note that there is no speculation in this verse...'we know...' 1 John is full of such certainties. On occasion he produces the wonderful statement 'we know that we know...'. John says that we know that 'one having been born 'of God' is not sinning'. Remembering the sense of continuation in the Greek present tense, it is a plain statement of truths which have been encountered earlier in the book. The 'having been born of God one' is not a 'sinning one'.The next phrase is significant. The one 'having been born of God' This word 'keep' is often used in the sense of the sense of “preserve” in a number of different contexts. Keeping the faith is indicated in 2Ti. 4: 7. trereO refers to believers being kept or preserved for the coming of the Lord, the eternal inheritance for the people of God (1Th. 5:23; 1Jo. 5:18; Jude 1: 1; 1Pe. 1: 4). Jude 1:21 contains the commandment to keep oneself in the love of God. In Rev. 3:10, the risen Christ promises to keep the church at Philadelphia safe from the “hour of trial” that will come upon the whole world. This is in response to their faithful endurance in obedience to his command. Several texts also indicate God’s intention to preserve the wicked for the day of judgment (cf. 2Pe. 2: 4, 9; 3:7; Jude 1:13). The command to keep oneself pure is found in 1Ti. 5:22; Jam. 1:27; and the instruction to maintain the unity of the Spirit in Eph. 4: 3.Renn's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words It has the sense of 'keeping as with a garrison. This is not a passive existence in which one just floats through life in a state of 'not sinning' but demands energetic response to God's keeping power. I am often brought back to Paul's simple testimony 'when I became a man, I put away childish things'. There is a strong sense of personal responsibility here. It is absolutely compatible with John's emphasis on 'abiding' which continues throughout this book. 1John 2:6 (KJVS) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. and also [1John 2:6,10,14,17,19,24,27-28; 3:6,9,14-15,17,24; 4:12-13,15-16;] The conflict is not over, we are required to be vigilant and awake at our post; but the expectation is that the one having been 'born of God' will not be a 'sinning one'

I recommend listening to a sermon I just recently listened to by Charles G. Finney:Any Form of Sin Persisted is Fatal to the SoulListen to all three!

Hebrews 12 talks about besetting sins, that is, sins that we find so easy to commit, and have a hard time always being victorious over. That is, a sin that we commit, repent of, and later find ourselves doing it yet again. You aren't in danger of hell fire just because some things more easily trip you up than other things. Different people might find different sins more difficult to deal with than others. If you commit a particular sin, repent of it, and don't do it again. But if you do it again, repent yet again, and get back up. So long as you keep getting back up after you stumble, and never give up, then you don't have to worry about where you stand in your relationship to God. So long as you don't remain in that sin, and remain unrepentant in regard to it, you will do fine. Don't however, think of this as a license to sin though. It's not.

Amen Dorcas,My pastor describes faith as a verb, as an active thing.I can have victory over this presenting temptation to sin, if I want that victory. You're sounding much like William Law here and I wholeheartedly agree.In order to get victory over sin, we must make a conscious and intentional choice to choose not to sin.As far as whether it's related to unbelief, I don't know. I see it a bit broader because the same word is used throughout the New Testament but I'll defer to the Greek scholars on that one.

Blake,Many people say that Paul's thorn was a physical ailment. However, do we need God's grace for physical ailments? Paul needed God's grace. Why? Because He sinned. Paul had a thorn, a secret sin that caused Paul to stay humble. Paul could never say, "I am perfect." Rather, Paul gave Himself to Jesus everyday. The thorn reminded Paul how much He needs Jesus.II Corinthians 12:7-107. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.8. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.9. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10.Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Where do you find that Paul had a 'secret sin' from this? That is a mighty charge you are leveling there...a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me lest...Break it down and look what is being said, would a sin be given to stop someone from exalting himself? Of all the possibilties given as to 'what' Paul's thorn was, surely this was not it. Beyond that, think through the ramifications of Paul asking to have it removed, if it was a 'secret sin' and the Lord denied him now you have a very large problem in contradiction.

Hebrews 12 talks about besetting sins, that is, sins that we find so easy to commit, and have a hard time always being victorious over. Hi JimmyI'm not sure that it does. “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Heb. 12:1, KJVS) the sin which clings so closely... I think, in the light of the whole thrust of Hebrews, is unbelief.

Many people say that Paul's thorn was a physical ailment. However, do we need God's grace for physical ailments? Paul needed God's grace. Why? Because He sinned. Paul had a thorn, a secret sin that caused Paul to stay humble. Paul could never say, "I am perfect." Rather, Paul gave Himself to Jesus everyday. The thorn reminded Paul how much He needs Jesus.Mike B is right. This became accepted teaching among Lutherans but the notion that God will 'allow sufficient sin to keep you humble' is certainly not a Bible idea.