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Is it us or Jesus that will establish God's kingdom on earth

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Valadar Nov 11, 2005

Greeting my fellow brothers and sisters. On Wednesday I attended a mens breakfast where a transmisson of a guy named Ian McKellar who is part of NCMI was preaching. What I heard really disturbed me, he was saying that christians must use our influence in positions such as teachers, lawyers government officals, businessmen etc. To try to influence the world for Christ and to establish God's kingdom on earth, by using these means.Now Jesus our Lord says "That my kingdom is not of this world" John 18:6 and "The Kingdoms of this world are become thekingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and he shall reign forever and ever." Revelations 11:15So why are some trying to establish His kingdom?When His kingdom will only come, when He returns and not by man made effort.Or perhaphs some have become tired of waiting for the promise and are trying to turn earth into heaven.What are you your guys thought?Always the best in ChristCraig :-)

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_Disciple_ Nov 11, 2005

Now Jesus our Lord says "That my kingdom is not of this world" John 18:6my thoughts are quite simple in this, this world is fallen, broken and in sin. What is of flesh, is flesh, but which is of Spirit is everlasting.This world is carnal, what can we do about carnality?"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;"Rev 21:1This earth will be no more one day, so than i don't understand the point that people want to establish it here on this earth. Sorry to say it sounds quite silly to me, when they want it here and now.That are my thoughts on this subject [smile]Be blessed bro, stay close to The Living Word!your bro in Christ,-William

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_Disciple_ Nov 11, 2005

CARNALWhat is carnality? According to the Greek dictionary, it means to have the nature and characteristics of the flesh (or more simply, it means "fleshly"). What, then , is the flesh? Sometimes it refers to the whole material part of man (1 Corinthians 15:39; Hebrews 5:7), and based on this meaning, carnal sometimes relates to material things like money (Romans 15:27) or to the opposite of our weapons of spiritual warfare (2 Corinthians 10:4). But the word flesh also has a metaphorical sense when it refers to our disposition to sin and to oppose or omit God in our lives. The flesh is characterized by works that include lusts and passions (Galatians 5:19-24; I John 2:16); it can enslave (Romans 7:25); and in it is nothing good (Romans 7:18). Based on this meaning of the word flesh, to be carnal means to be characterized by things that belong to the unsaved life (Ephesians 2:3). Charles Ryrie, So Great Salvation, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 59-60.For truth is precious and divine,Too rich a pearl for carnal swine.Samuel Butlerfrom the Sermon Illustrated I here on SI.

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PreachParsly Nov 11, 2005

It seems to me that everyone wants to "work for the cause of Christ" every way possible except the main things he called us to do: Pray and Preach the Gospel.

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roadsign Nov 11, 2005

This is the same question that the disciples were occupied with. They just couldn't understand that Jesus kingdom was not of this earth. The Jews missed Christ entirely because they were expecting an earthly, national ruler. Perhaps the better question to ask is "What is the kingdom of God?' What does it mean to seek first the Kingdom of God?If you are really keen to understand these things, then I know you will be blessed by doing a word search and study on the Kingdom of God. Then you will also see that there is a lot of heresy regarding this issue - just like there was in Jesus day. Many religions are looking for an earthly rule: Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, a lot of Protestant brnaches, etc.. the topic of "Mellenium" has been discussed in this forum not too long ago. Diane

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deltadom Nov 11, 2005

I think Jesus

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InTheLight Nov 11, 2005

This sounds like what is known as either Dominion theology or Kingdom Now theology. If you do a search on the web for those terms you will come up with plenty of info.In a nutshell these theologies teach that through the coming of Christ the believer has dominion over every area of life and as a result we should be reigning with Christ over the earth. The dominion of the earth is accomplished not only through prayer and evangelism, but through political process and social reformation. They also teach that Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth's governmental and social institutions.I think one of the biggest dangers of these teachings is that it replaces the motivation for Godly living based on the blessed hope of Christ's return (Titus 2:13) with the task of reforming society. The proponents of these teachings admit themselves that taking dominion will take thousands of years.In Christ,Ron

sermonindex Nov 11, 2005

InTheLight,Thanks for reminding me of these terms. It's a long time since I heard this idea although I realise it's never gone away.I think one of the biggest dangers of these teachings is that it replaces the motivation for Godly living The only sense I can make of many times (not all) that the word 'earth' is used, is by applying it to my own body. This is the 'earth' in which God's kingdom is to have dominion for sure - from the inside, outwards. I see 'victory over sin' as a type of 'possessing the land' (Joshua-style) and I certainly don't think we should cop out for an 'after death' option. Victory is now or it is not at all. These thoughts fit in with these scriptures. (Note, I am not saying this is what these scriptures mean in an absolute sense, but, they encourage me to believe that personal victory now is vitally important.1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 2 Thessalonians 16 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

sermonindex Nov 11, 2005

Continuing the truth that we are made from the dust of the ground and adding to it that the Word became Flesh, Jesus Himself is also 'earth'... which then makes much more sense of verses such as these:Colossians 116 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; Can you see the 'earth' link beginning to shape up?

sermonindex Nov 12, 2005

This thought is continued in Colossians 3.5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 and have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: and Ephesians 21 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God,Please also compare Leviticus 18:1 - 5 and 24 - 30, linking it with Revelation 3:14 - 17, especially noting the way God threatened to deal in the Old Testament, with an identical threat in the New.Despite Jesus's apparent silence on the content of Leviticus 18, let us never forget, He is THE WORD (made Flesh) and seeks to establish His own Life in us in our experience.Under the Old Covenant, God expected physical obedience on these points without the Spirit's help. It is impossible to cut Christians who have the help of the Holy Spirit, any slack at all, regarding the sins Paul brings to the attention of his Gentile audience. Victory over sin is basic to Christianity. This is the establishment of Christ's kingdom on earth.Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Romans 822 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he [NB Eph 1:19, 20] that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. The only thought which can be added to the above is this: if all the people in the world were victorious Christians, there would be no need for civil institutions through which His kingdom should be brought to bear on anyone from the outside (as it were).

sermonindex Nov 13, 2005

roadsign wrote:Perhaps the better question to ask is "What is the kingdom of God?' What does it mean to seek first the Kingdom of God?If you are really keen to understand these things, then I know you will be blessed by doing a word search and study on the Kingdom of God. In the vineyard (please dont think of tornoto) we say 'The Kingdom came, is here, and is yet to come'. Past, Present, Future. Through our pastors message, instead of saying 'revival' he says 'the kingdom of God made manifest'(paraphrased, maybe taken out of context..idc) or 'the kingdom of God has broken through in the community'.The KOG (Kingdom of God) is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven, Gospel and in some instances same as 'the word of God' (when the bible connotates to the gospel). But that is just the 'present' time. The kingdom is 'yet to come' and that is at His second coming.If you start looking into 'what is the kingdom' you will, or should, say 'Revival'.At least that's what I've gotten out of the somewhat exhaustive study i've did on it. (Still not over, about 50 hours to go, no time right now to complete it)The Kingdom of God encounter, is a change, and revolution, if you will. Of a person, group or community. ;-) I hope that is on 8-)

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IRONMAN Nov 13, 2005

brethrenthis is a most interesting discussion indeed!bro valadar set it off...What I heard really disturbed me, he was saying that christians must use our influence in positions such as teachers, lawyers government officals, businessmen etc. To try to influence the world for Christ and to establish God's kingdom on earth, by using these means.the Lord has been gracious enough to me to show me that the majority of people aren't really kingdom minded for starters. Christ said that His kingdom was not of this world and there it can't be built by anything of this world be it political influence, military might, conniving etc. people are concerned about building kingdoms alright, just not God's kingdom but personal ones which the Lord will demolish. People have become content with the way things are and have no interest in the paradise which Christ promised to the one thief on the cross. people have become intoxicated with this world to the extent that heaven is of no relevence. the thing is though that without having one's eyes fixed on heaven, one is running headlong for hell. Christ's very return will usher in His kingdom which He himself shall rule for 1000 yrs with a rod of iron. bro deltadom summed it up in 3 words...I think Jesus amen bro!bro Ron saidIn a nutshell these theologies teach that through the coming of Christ the believer has dominion over every area of life and as a result we should be reigning with Christ over the earth. The dominion of the earth is accomplished not only through prayer and evangelism, but through political process and social reformation. They also teach that Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth's governmental and social institutionsI think one of the biggest dangers of these teachings is that it replaces the motivation for Godly living based on the blessed hope of Christ's return (Titus 2:13) with the task of reforming society. The proponents of these teachings admit themselves that taking dominion will take thousands of years.and the word says in 2 peter chapt 33 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. obedience to the Father in all things is what is required of us in order to build the kingdom.if God reigns in our hearts then we are obedient to Him. If only we would submit to God and repent of our prides...brethren let us repent before God of our foolishnesses

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Valadar Nov 18, 2005

Amen brother Ironman. In short I have felt seeing the churches, all running around in programs trying to evangelise the world, trying to "hasten" the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus.When we know, don't we? That He will return at precisely the right time- in God's timing to return and take set up His kingdom on earth.It also seems in this respect that some seem to think the effort of trying to get scores of people saved, will hasten His coming. Now we are called to preach the gospel, to the world, its's the Lord's commandment, but we seem to think that the Lord is about the numbers game i.e 1000s giving their lives, but the truth is the Lord wants those who fully surrender to Him.On the contary don't you think it is interesting that the Lord sifted out the numbers till he had the people that He chose? See John 6:60We are also told that no one can be His disciple unless we hate out lives that we lived in the natural and unless we take up our cross and follow Him daily. Luke 14:26 and Luke 14:27So why look at the numbers and man's effort in trying to fufil the great commision may we repent from being busy with the Lord business and seek Him only because as the word says "seek first the kingdom and His righteousness" B blessed my brethren in ChristCraig :-)

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shibu Nov 23, 2005

Philippians 3:18-21 (The Message) There are many out there taking other paths, choosing other goals, and trying to get you to go along with them. I've warned you of them many times; sadly, I'm having to do it again. All they want is easy street. They hate Christ's Cross. But easy street is a dead-end street. Those who live there make their bellies their gods; belches are their praise; all they can think of is their appetites. But there's far more to life for us. We're citizens of high heaven! We're waiting the arrival of the Savior, the Master, Jesus Christ, who will transform our earthy bodies into glorious bodies like his own. He'll make us beautiful and whole with the same powerful skill by which he is putting everything as it should be, under and around him.Paul wrote above passage about some of the believers of his time with weeping because they were enemies of the cross though they may wore a cross externally. If this can happen among the first century Christians, then how more will be the situation after 2000 years, since then. Oh how much early apostles vigorously taught the believers that, their citizenship is in heaven, to set their minds on things above, not on earthly things and they are pilgrims here on earth. Therefore they eagerly waited for their Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ and sought for heavenly blessings.Oh how much, the majority of 21st century gospel preachers avoid cross (things which will offend the carnal mind) in their teaching, in order to get an impressive statistics and to make their message appealing to their hearers with sugar coating. Because of this, instead of producing sweet Christians who will be an aroma to God, they are producing spiritually-retarded Christians. No wonder! there is so much of shallowness in today's Christianity. Praise God, in every generation, God got a remnant, who bear the cross faithfully in their life and preaching.In Him,Shibu

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crsschk Nov 23, 2005

Something telling in this ideal. A Christian 'evolution'? If there were a thousand perfect "Christ's" walking the earth the world would have them all put to death, not welcome them.Beyond that IF this ideal was to somehow happen who would end up taking the credit for it?(Surely the argument would be that addendum tagged on the end "With the Lords help of course")Everything that has every happened in the history of life that is of any worth happens by Gods invention and intervention. 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:7 - But the heavens and the earth which are now - As they now exist. There is no difficulty here respecting what is meant by the word “earth,” but it is not so easy to determine precisely how much is included in the word “heavens.” It cannot be supposed to mean “heaven” as the place where God dwells; nor is it necessary to suppose that Peter understood by the word all that would now be implied in it, as used by a modern astronomer. The word is doubtless employed in a popular signification, referring to the “heavens as they appear to the eye;” and the idea is, that the conflagration would not only destroy the earth, but would change the heavens as they now appear to us. If, in fact, the earth with its atmosphere should be subjected to an universal conflagration, all that is properly implied in what is here said by Peter would occur.By the same word - Dependent solely on the will of God. He has only to give command, and all will be destroyed. The laws of nature have no stability independent of his will, and at his pleasure all things could be reduced to nothing, as easily as they were made. A single word, a breath of command, from one Being, a Being over whom we have no control, would spread universal desolation through the heavens and the earth. Notwithstanding the laws of nature, as they are called, and the precision, uniformity, and power with which they operate, the dependence of the universe on the Creator is as entire as though there were no such laws, and as though all were conducted by the mere will of the Most High, irrespective of such laws. In fact, those laws have no efficiency of their own, but are a mere statement of the way in which God produces the changes which occur, the methods by which He operates who “works all in all.” At any moment he could suspend them; that is, he could cease to act, or withdraw his efficiency, and the universe would cease to be.Are kept in store - Greek, “Are treasured up.” The allusion in the Greek word is to anything that is treasured up, or reserved for future use. The apostle does not say that this is the only purpose for which the heavens and the earth are preserved, but that this is one object, or this is one aspect in which the subject may be viewed. They are like treasure reserved for future use.Reserved unto fire - Reserved or kept to be burned up. See the notes at 2Pe_3:10. The first mode of destroying the world was by water, the next will be by fire. That the world would at some period be destroyed by fire was a common opinion among the ancient philosophers, especially the Greek Stoics. What was the foundation of that opinion, or whence it was derived, it is impossible now to determine; but it is remarkable that it should have accorded so entirely with the statements of the New Testament. The authorities in proof that this opinion was entertained may be seen in Wetstein, in loc. See Seneca, N. Q. iii. 28; Cic. N. D. ii. 46; Simplicius in Arist. de Coelo i. 9; Eusebius, P. xv. 18. It is quite remarkable that there have been among the pagan in ancient and modern times so many opinions that accord with the statements of revelation - opinions, many of them, which could not have been founded on any investigations of science among them, and which must, therefore, have been either the result of conjecture, or handed down by tradition. Whatever may have been their origin, the fact that such opinions prevailed and were believed, may be allowed to have some weight in showing that the statements in the Bible are not improbable.Against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men - The world was destroyed by a flood on account of the wickedness of its inhabitants. It would seem from this passage that it will be destroyed by fire with reference to the same cause; at least, that its destruction by fire will involve the perdition of wicked men. It cannot be inferred from this passage that the world will be as wicked at the general conflagration as it was in the time of Noah; but the idea in the mind of Peter seems to have been, that in the destruction of the world by fire the perdition of the wicked will be involved, or will at that time occur. It also seems to be implied that the fire will accomplish an important agency in that destruction, as the water did on the old world. It is not said, in the passage before us, whether those to be destroyed will be living at that time, or will be raised up from the dead, nor have we any means of determining what was the idea of Peter on that point. All that the passage essentially teaches is, that the world is reserved now with reference to such a consummation by fire; that is, that there are elements kept in store that may be enkindled into an universal conflagration, and that such a conflagration will be attended with the destruction of the wicked.Barnes' NotesRom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. Rom 8:23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.It seems what gets lost in all this is what is meant and by what effort the "revealing" is to take place. When even the so called 'best' of us can't even come to terms with many things to think by joining forces "we" are going to bring "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" is to miss a phenomenal point, that we really do not know who we are.Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

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