Calvary Chapel of Ft. Lauderdale looks at John Wesley as role model

Pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale has been doing a sermon series on giving through his radio ministry THE ACTIVE WORD. Today's message featured a nice clip on John Wesley. If you go here and listen around the 19:30 mark:http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=AW20051115&quality=lo&format=RealAudio&key=I think you have to register to listen, but they don't send you annoying emails or such and it's free.-Chris

Do you go to a Calvary Chapel? I'm just curious how you found out about Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. I've enjoyed several of Pastor Bob Coy's teachings. And yes, Calvary pastors often read the writings of and quote from people such as John Wesley, D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, Oswald Chambers and others. Thanks for sharing with us.

I first heard about Calvary Chapel through CSN, their radio ministry, and the local CSN station carries Pastor Bob.I am in the process of starting a CC in my hometown, Lord willing. We have been meeting for Bible study time for almost a year now. The closest CC is a 40 min. drive, and it's hard to be a real part of the family with such distance.I talked with a brother recently who is also interested in CC but we both admit that there is a growing need for CC to call for more holiness. I realize that I might be singled out as a legalist who misunderstands "freedom in grace", but I have been changed forever by Ravenhill & co. and the way God speaks through them.

Tacklebox --- you said you talked with your brother who is also interested in a certain group or denomination but you both believe that group is not holy enough.What is holiness?How are we made holy?

It's not so much questioning the holiness of others as much as questioning the direction of the leadership of the church.I agree with Ravenhill that pastors determine the spiritual climate of the churches they preach to. This is not to say that the congregation will ALWAYS be holy if the pastor is holy, but every pastor should realize the responsibility he has to wait upon the Lord in prayer for his flock and to be the example for them.There is more responsibility for those in leadership and God holds them more acocuntable."My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." -James 3:1I am mainly concerned with the lack of teaching on holiness because it is so often misunderstood to be preaching legalism.To answer your question, What is holiness: Well, it certainly isn't religion alone, but James also gives us some insight as to what religion can be when it is executed with holiness:"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." -James 1:27 (emphasis added)To know what holiness really is, though, let's look at the one attribute of God that the seraphim mention in Isaiah 6: 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” Here the seraphim aren't singing, "Loving, loving, loving" or "Forgiving, forgiving, forgiving" but "Holy, holy, holy!"God's love is being elevated more than His holiness in today's preaching. Now that's not to belittle God's love - in fact, God's love cannot fully be appreciated outside of a proper understanding of His holiness. If we were see ourselves as God sees us, we ALL would cry with Isaiah: “ Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.”What is holiness? Holiness is the very nature of God. Love is also the nature of God (1 John 4:16), but even His love is holy. That's why His Son's sacrifice cannot be issued to everyone automatically. Only those who recognize His holiness and their wickedness can even begin to have faith in Christ, for God resists the proud but give grace to the humble (James 4:6, Proverbs 3:34.) God must judge sin for "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4.)I could go on describing what holiness is, but this article does a great job:http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Holiness_God.htmI understand that one can preach holiness all day long but without the moving of God, it won't do any good. I understand that God's grace keeps our striving for holiness from making us go insane or get exhausted - that we must rest in His strength to keep us holy and not in our own. I think grace that's being used as a crutch is not really grace at all. I think it's far overdue for American Christianity to wake up to the hard realities that are around us and to be humbled by how God is calling up a people to Himself in other places.Americans get so disappointed when we don't get the gold at the Olympics, and some national pride is lost when that happens. Well, America sure isn't getting the gold in God's olympics, and there's no remorse in most of our churches over that. We should be striving to win the gold in God's olympics, and holiness is one of the main events.We are made holy through God performing a work of grace in our hearts. We are not made holy by someone yelling at us or pointing out our faults. We are not made holy by any of that, but I can ensure you that holiness will not be instilled in the hearts of Americans by us sitting on our hands. The fervent prayers of the RIGHTEOUS availith much, but who will teach us to pray and to be righteous? Teachers/Pastors are given that responsibility in the local churches. They can only teach it - not force-feed it, but for their hands to be clean of blood, they NEED TO TEACH THEIR CONGREGATION HOW TO PRAY AND BE RIGHTEOUS in order to bring revival!

Hi, Chis!I can agree with much of what you shared.First off, I want to read to you what my theological dictionary says about "Sanctify, Sanctification." Thereafter, I going to breifly share some of my thoughts on the subject. Then I am going to ask you a question."To sanctify" according to my theology dictionary means to be set apart for a holy use.God has set us apart for the purpose of sancification not impurity (1 Thessalonians 4:7), and being such we are called to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).Christians are to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Peter 3:15).God sanctified Israel as His own special nation (Ezekiel 27:28).People can be sanctified (Exodus 19:10,11) and so can a mountian (Exodus 19:23). As can the sabbath day (Genesis 2:3), and every created thing is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4).Sanctification follows "justification."In "justification" our sins are completely forgiven in Christ.Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit makes us more like Christ in all that we do, think, and desire.True sancification is impossible apart from the atoning work of Christ on the Cross --- because only after our sins are forgiven can we begin to lead a holy life.That's what my theology dictionary says about it!Now turn with me please, to Hebrews 13:12.I am going to read this passage from the New International Version, only because I like the way that verse reads in that translation:"Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate" (Hebrews 13:12).Here the writer of Hebrews tells us that we can be sanctified through the blood of Jesus. "To sanctify" means to make holy, or to set apart to God. And that is one of the "five great provisions of the blood of Jesus." Now I want to ask you a question!How do you see Christianity? That is, true Christianity! I say that only because there is a lot of what could be called apostate Christianity today. That isn't true or biblical Christianity.So how do you see biblical Christianity? For instance, do you see it as being a set of rules? that you must keep? to keep a good standing with God? Or, do you see as not that or in some other way?Grace be with you.

Of course Christianity is not limited to a set of rules or laws. In fact, the Bible is clear that no man can be as perfect as the perfect Law of God because we are born with a sinful nature. I am convinced that man is born with such a depraved nature because no one has to teach us to break God's Law.No one had to teach us to dishonor and disobey our parents,No one had to teach us to lie,No one had to teach us to lust (adultery of the heart - Matt. 5:28), etc.Even in a redeemed state, the Christian still battles the flesh on this side of eternity, and I don't subscribe to the idea of reaching sinless perfection - I don't find that in the Bible, and anyone who claims to have "arrived" at such a state can't be walking too much in the light of God to see their iniquity.As Ravenhill said, "It's not the inability to sin, it's the ability not to sin - and there's a world of difference." That means that we will still fail in trails and tests, but such failures only drive us closer in our dependance and love for God. It's not just wanting liberty from sin but desiring the liberty in the love of God - not to sin that grace will abound, but the liberty of loving God so much that you find sin to be as repulsive as He does.I could try to come up with a list of rules for other Christians to follow in order to for them to be "more holy", but we both know that's ridiculous and unBiblical. We should be like Paul when he wrote in Ephesians 5:10 - to find out what is pleasing to God. If you are courting someone, one of the first task you go about doing is finding out what pleases them. You will sacrifice your time, income, and whatever it takes to bless them with offerings, at least as long as the fire kindles in your heart for them.Christianity cannot be defined with earthly goals, for the real goal is superior to any earthly thing. As Ravenhill so brilliantly put it, "Take this from an old man - there is no finiality to the Christian life on this side of eternity."The problem is whenever you preach holiness, you will almost always be accused of being a legalist. If you speak out against Sabbath-breaking (which the modern American church is very guilty of), they call you a legalist, but for some reason it's understood adultery is wrong and you can openly speak out against that - but they are both capital offenses against God and trangressions among the 10 Commandments. Pastors need to educate their congregations of what is pleasing and displeasing to God, and take a stand for uncompromising holiness. That's the easy part - it's living a sanctified life that's lacking from today's pulpits. Matthew 7 begins with a stern warning to preachers and all who speak out against sin. Whatever standard we set in our preaching we should hold ourselves accountable to that same standard because God will also. I realize in my own expressions for holiness in the church I am setting myself up to be put up on the scaffold for examination and condemnation, and beacuse of that I take my stance with great care and sincerity.Hypocricy is the water that quenches the fire of holiness. We are VERY close to launching our Bible study into a full-fledged church body, and we plan on using James 1:27 to remind us of our calling:"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

tackleboxThanks for answering my questions about Calvary Chapel and sharing your heart concerning holiness and the leadership in the church.

No problem! :-)

tacklebox --- this will let you know I read your post. I agree with much of what you shared. I can see that you are a student of the teaching legacy that Leonard Ravenhill left behind. Good for you. As I read your good post I saw a mixture of Ravenhill's thoughts, and of course that of your own. You said "Christianity isn't limited to a set of rules." What I hear you saying is that you are seeking to keep a good standing with God partly by law and partly by grace. Of course, you realize don't you that law is a set of rules that you must keep. If you keep all the rules --- all the time --- you achieve righteousness. Grace, on the other hand, is something we cannot earn.There are many Christians who try to mix law and grace. They seek to keep themselves in a good standing with God partly by law and partly by grace. The truth of the matter is that they do not really understand either grace or law.The Bible deals with two methods by which to achieve righteousness with God: law and grace ---and they are mutually exclusive. If you seek to achieve righteousness by law, you cannot earn it by grace. And if you seek to achieve righteousness by grace, then you cannot do it by keeping the law.And grace is something that we cannot earn. Grace is received from God only by one way, as described in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH ..." (NKJV) (emphasis added).Galatians 5:18 (NKJV) says, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."The message is clear that we become a son of God by being led by the Spirit. And if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law. Christians are not under the law, biblical Christianity is not a set of rules. Biblical Christianity is being led by God's Holy Spirit.Christians are not under the law of Moses.

There are many Christians who try to mix law and grace.What is grace or what does it do?

What is grace?Gods grace is the divine influence of God upon a person heart and the reflection of that influence displayed in the persons life, in action, word, deed, behavior and all forms of communications.It does include unmerited favor but I like to think of it as unmerited influence. In other words I don't earn God influencing my heart.Blessings,Mike

Amen. Many would say that all grace is, is unmerited favor or unconditional love. This was the scripture I was thinking of when I asked the question.Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.