"recovery version" of the bible

bro GregFootnotes from the Book of Revelation state that denominational groups are spiritual fornicators for taking on names other than that of Christ (Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc), that Christianity is degraded for taking on these denominational names, that denominational groups are the harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon, and that Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Judaism have become an organization used by Satan as a tool to damage God's economy"this struck me. Those that followed Christ were first called Christians at Antioch and yet now there are so many different denomintations...I never thought about this but after having been bought by Christ's very blood, somehow going about by another name just doesn't sit well with me...i know it may not seem like much but if indeed this is spiritual fornication then we need to repent of it real quick.it also calls into question how much of what we hold so dear in terms of orthodox Christianity is really of God? also are we prepared to put our souls on the line for said beliefs? personally i'm not willing to go down upholding some tradition or belief that may be centuries old or considered orthodox if the Lord reveals to me that it's not of Him...not getting into that fight. i pray that the Lord looses us from whatever bondages are upon us under the guise of orthodoxy, tradition or any other such thing. AMEN

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone2Ti 2:19 Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness. I don't know who witness lee is personally and haven't read any of his stuff, however after reading the above I'd guess he's the head of a cult. Generally they start by adding to the bible "thier books" on how to understand thier doctrine, usually they explain it outside of the Bible and then they modify the Bible much like the JW's inorder to make it(The Bible) fit thier doctrine. I 'd be cautious of starying to far from the teachings of the early church fathers. As for denominational names? God still looks at the heart and we are still on a faith walk.

bros Greg and Dohzmani have a question and i ask it in the Spirit of building up the kingdom of God. How is it that when an alternate view of scripture/God we have a tendancy to think it's wrong. This is not to say that everything else we har is right by any means but perhaps we also should exercise caution before deciding that one is a cult leader? What if we ourselves have it wrong and miss out on what God has for us by holding onto something we've long believed which perhaps if we sought the Lord on we'd find it to be wrong/baseless.i also never thought of this before till the first post i put on this thread but i'll say it again, if we are bought by Christ's blood, a very very...no the dearest price of all it seems to me that it's not a good idea to wear any other name than that of Christian. When people ask me what faith i am (i have drealocks so people assume i'm rastafarian but that's another story...) or some other such heathen so i tell them i'm a Christian. i'm asked "of what denomination" and of late the Lord has been impressing me no reply "Christian" i think i am beginning to see why...it seems to me that various denominations have elements of truth in them about God and yet deny certain things about Him too at the same time.i guess this may not all seem like a big deal but somehow i sense in my spirit that there is more to it than it appears...at any rate this is what the Lord has been showing me and i just wanted to share. may the Lord continue to bless you dear brothers and may we continue to hold one another up in prayer that He may be revealed to us in even greater measure to His glory. AMEN!

Ironman,I would say that denomination is not as deep as you think it is. When I (a North American Baptist) talk to a Presbyterian, I am not saying that his faith is incorrect. I am not warring over my affiliation. However, that affiliation will have a major bearing on quite a few of my doctrinal stances. This should not be confused with core issues - we share a same faith and believe in one Supreme God. My belief in my God shares very, very many points with my brethren in the Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and many other denominations not limited to but hinging on that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, he died for our sins and rose again on the third day, and shall come again for his bride.But, I have a tendency to lean towards a free will argument whereas many lean towards a sovereignty standpoint. What is the proper way to respect the Sabbath according to the New Testament church, etc.My denomination is not the name I would go by. In a world (ala the western world) where Christianity is known, expressed, and quite explored, simply saying I am a Christian is a bit like standing in front of the Smithsonian with cowboy boots and spurs. Alright. Certain denominations have a tendency to carry with them certain "interpretations" of the bible. We are allowed to disagree where the doctrine is not explicit, although within reason.This is not a bad thing. I can walk into a Methodist church across the country and hopefully feel as welcome as if I were at home with the group where I hold membership. But by stating my denominational preference, I also state a little bit about my theological training as well as (to some degree) my leanings.To say that expressing myself to another Christian with disregard to his ability to understand that I may hold disagreeing viewpoints is about as disrespectful as spitting in a bowl of soup in a buffet line while he's standing behind me. Saying that doing this is of the devil is about like saying since I walk into a church in northern Mississippi that I should go to hell. This is why these footnotes are a bit troublesome.Maybe you could think of it like flags. If I were to fly a banner, what flags would I fly where? On my flagpole right outside my door, highest flies the flag of my country (due its rights and respects). Next flies the flag flown by Christian missionaries for centuries. Behind that flies the state flag. If I were to display a banner of my spiritual self, what would fly there? First and foremost, the flag of my King, that same flag flown second to my country's. Next would fly the flag of a North American Baptist. Behind that I would probably fly a flag with the emblem of several other denominations. This is a bit of a nautical analogy, so hopefully it goes over ok.

If you re-read what I posted I was laying a formula, if you will, on discerning a cult. Cults follow a pattern and from the little I've read of with this group its all the same. The word of God says the spiritual man judges all things. While symatics is one thing, to call the organized churches devices of satan because they have the label or name baptist, methodist, etc... is a pretty broad stoke of the pen and shows that they have some serious issues they really need to address before they can presume to even claim to be used of God in any real impactifull way, Ps 133 Behold how good an pleasant it is when brethren dwell together in unity.....We can have differences in some doctrine and still serve the same Jesus. When ever one sect claims divinely appointed authority over,.... better watch out! EDIT[Reading thier doctrinal statements will be like drinking poison. If you buy into it you'll find that you will increasingly seperate from other true christians and eventually stray into all sorts of error that will eventually shipwreck your faith. As to the groups piety and sincerity? I know Jw's, Muslims, krishna's etc.. that are very devoted and show an amazing amount of outward piety, but they too need to be Born again or they also will go straight to Hell for all eternity without Jesus Christ! Harsh? Truth! This group is a cult and the Lord will show it for what it is as the day reveals all things at the rising of the sun! Just watch.]After reading the bible reference at the top of the heading I decided to look into witness lee and found that witness lee's ministry has little to bear inon the statements of that flawed translation of the Word of God. So I had to edit my statements but left them intact so as to keep the integrity of the thread.

bro Gregi thank the Lord for your honesty concerning this and the realization that we should look for the good fruit in these things and do away with what isn't of God. the only way to do that it to take it all before God and gave Him show us what is right and what is wrong and also to have Him examine our own beliefs to see if they are in line with what He would have us do. Let us seek the Spirit of Unity in out Saviour Christ Jesus indeed. AMEN!

PTywama3thank you for your response!I would say that denomination is not as deep as you think it is. When I (a North American Baptist) talk to a Presbyterian, I am not saying that his faith is incorrect. I am not warring over my affiliation. However, that affiliation will have a major bearing on quite a few of my doctrinal stances. This should not be confused with core issues - we share a same faith and believe in one Supreme God. My belief in my God shares very, very many points with my brethren in the Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and many other denominations not limited to but hinging on that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, he died for our sins and rose again on the third day, and shall come again for his bride.i am beginning to feel that denomiational affilication is if probably more significant than we think. if we share the same core values ok that's cool but what about the things we differ on? more importantly how does what i believe about XYZ and what you believe about XYZ compare to what the Lord taught the early church through the apostles? that's what's the Lord has me concerned about.the Lord is not the author of confusion, satan is. the early church was unified not just on core values but also doctrines also. are the things that differentiate us Christians into different denominations rooted in the word of God or traditions of men? indeed Christ shall return for an unblemished bride, one which is unified in every aspect, doctrine, belief, purpose and love for God. at the church's inception all they were known as were Christians and the way i see it is the enemy came in and divided and conquered. Paul said to the Galatians in Galations 1 vs 6-9:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.i guess at some point someone preached another gospel to someone and it stuck and then it happened again and again resulting in all this confusion. what the Lord is impressing on me is that it shouldn't have turned out like this but we deviated from the original instructions God gave us through the apostles. in doing that we gave the enemy a free pass to come in and divide and conquer. i don't think that the footnote implies that if you walk into a church in northen MS (if i may use your example) you'd go to hell, but rather if you adhere to the beliefs of said church which are not of God you're in rebellion to God and rebellion against God is not a thing we should be involved in.Paul wrote to timothy in 2 Tim 1-4 the following:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.How much then of the things thar separate us into denominations are such fables? This is not to say that all things in the different denomniations are untrue because there is some truth in most of them but there is also fallacy and we have to sort through it all, or rather have God show us the way so we don't hold onto foolish doctrines which have no basis in the bible. if Paul wrote this about such and such and Martin Luther let's say wrote something different, who should we follow then? the Lord had me come back and ad this...if Martin Luther is wrong in light of what God taught us through the Holy Spirit through the apostles is wrong, then to hell with that bit which is out of line with God (coz it's from the enemy and that's where it belongs) not everything Luther said or wrote is wrong and what it truly of God we should hold onto. this applies to anyone else. The Lord is also impressing on me that we should investigate the roots of our doctrines and if they are not backed up by the word of God or go against it, then to hell with them lest we stir the anger of God by holding onto them against His instruction.

bro Dohzmanthank your for your response too! If you re-read what I posted I was laying a formula, if you will, on discerning a cult. Cults follow a pattern and from the little I've read of with this group its all the same. The word of God says the spiritual man judges all things. While symatics is one thing, to call the organized churches devices of satan because they have the label or name baptist, methodist, etc... is a pretty broad stoke of the pen and shows that they have some serious issues they really need to address before they can presume to even claim to be used of God in any real impactifull way, Ps 133 Behold how good an pleasant it is when brethren dwell together in unity.....i would humbly ask of you before deciding that this is a cult to see what bro Greg had to say about it. aren't denominations also caused by the same things that bring about a cult? people adding or subtracting from scripture to suit their beliefs? there is some truth in what they have to say and we have to go before the Lord and have Him try by His fire the words they speak rather than us doing the trying for God. again i ask if the early Church went by the name Christians and had no other name why do we respond with a denominational affiliation when asked of our faith? bro somehow this bothers me and the impression i'm getting from the Lord is that we were bought by Christ's blood and we belong to Him since we are His church. Those that lived in the years after Christ's death had a better concept of this than we because for them, they were there (hope that makes sense) bro all these denominations are because at some point someone decided to move away from what the the Lord taught and that was repeated down through history and here we are with however many denominations and we are members of said denominations aren't aware of the histories of the doctrines we hold so dear and which shape our view of Christ. in this regard, denominationalism is the work of the enemy sowing confusion in what should be 1 church, the church of Jesus Christ!if we say our brothers who feel so strongly about denominationalism have serious issues to deal with it seems to me that their strong feelings on denominationalism says that we also have some serious issues to look into before ourselves can be used of God in a poweful way. i agree with you bro that it is good when we as brethren dwell in unity. but the only way we can have that is if we return to the roots of the church,beyond Luther, Calvin and the other church fathers of the reformation but to the original church fathers the apostles. the Gospel of Jesus Christ atoning death for our salvation and the doctrines and teachings of how we should conduct ourselves toward one another and toward the world written by the Holy Spirit through the apostles.We can have differences in some doctrine and still serve the same Jesus. When ever one sect claims divinely appointed authority over,.... better watch out! Reading thier doctrinal statements will be like drinking poison. If you buy into it you'll find that you will increasingly seperate from other true christians and eventually stray into all sorts of error that will eventually shipwreck your faith.we can have differences with eachother as far as doctrines but we're not at liberty to have differences with what the Lord instructed us through the apostles, so again if whatever our denomination teaches is not backed up by the things the Lord gave to the apostles as governing regulations for the church then to hell with it (coz it's of the enemy and that's where it belongs) lest we kindle the Lord anger against us. just as surely as reading into their doctrines which are not of God can shipwreck faiths, so can holding onto some denominational view of things which is not of God either. As to the groups piety and sincerity? I know Jw's, Muslims, krishna's etc.. that are very devoted and show an amazing amount of outward piety, but they too need to be Born again or they also will go straight to Hell for all eternity without Jesus Christ! Harsh? Truth! This group is a cult and the Lord will show it for what it is as the day reveals all things at the rising of the sun! Just watch.bro dohzman just as surely as there are man pious people of various denominations, lots of them will end up in hell just the same as hindus, muslims etc for the same reason of false doctrinal beliefs. Here is what the Lord is impressing on me concerning our denominational beliefs, we need to let Him examine us and show us what is of Him and what is not. having allowed Him to do that, quickly casting away all that is not of Him because when the fire comes to sweep away all this false mess, if we're found holding onto any part of it, we too will get swept away with that judgement.let us not be foolish here coz our very souls are on the line, i pray that if there is anything which is tradition, or doctrine or practice which is not of God which we hold onto that the Lord make it plain to us and we drop it like it's hot and fall on our faces and repent before a Holy God who will not have any confusion or any other foolishness before Him. AMEN

i would humbly ask of you before deciding that this is a cult to see what bro Greg had to say about it. aren't denominations also caused by the same things that bring about a cult? An interesting measure of 'cult' might be just how easy it is to leave! If 'leaving' results in ostracism you can be sure you have a cult on your hands. This is simply because 'control' is at the heart of 'cult'. Consequently a 'cult' may be as small as a local church or as large as a denomination.

I've got to say, also, that when coming a church and a pastor to learn from, knowing the doctrinal beliefs of that person and church are incredibly important, and thus, denominational "descriptions" are likewise very important.A little while ago we were discussing the "All Saints" church in Florida. They believe in same-sex marriage, homosexuals leading church, etc. Now, do some there know Christ? There might be. But are they also teaching a doctrine contrary to scripture? Most definitely. Now, just that is enough for me to stay away- their beliefs are shown to be corrupt and aren't edifying those learning in a way that serves God.Now, when we go so far as to classify cults, it works on the same premises, but with other doctrines- namely that of Salvation. For example, the Jehova's Witnesses: Christ wasn't God, didn't raise from the grave, and his crucifixion was only partial in atoning for our sins. Do they teach the message of salvation? No. Are some saved in that group? I really doubt it.But with many things- predestination, evangalism methods, etc., I think there's room for debate. So, I go to an Independent Baptist church, but I call myself a Fundamental Christian. When I talk to a Presbyterian, do I dis-associate myself? No. They serve the Lord, and even though we might understand some things differently, they havn't twisted God to "fit theri box", as the Cults do.So, in conclusion, I think it's important to not say "I follow Pastor ______," but to know doctrinal beliefs of differing denominations and cults to be able to know what they're really teaching.Grace and Peace...

bro RonAn interesting measure of 'cult' might be just how easy it is to leave! If 'leaving' results in ostracism you can be sure you have a cult on your hands. This is simply because 'control' is at the heart of 'cult'. Consequently a 'cult' may be as small as a local church or as large as a denomination.Indeed brother Ron! that's not something i'd thought of at all really. i wonder what the reaction would be from say a pastor whose congregant said to him "i feel that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still needed and active today" :-? is it the baptists who hold this view anyone? or perhaps even if a congregant of a charismatic pentacostal whose pastor believed for anyone to prove he/she has the Holy Spirit they must speak in tongues, what would the pastor say :-( more and more i feel that a closer God overseen investigation on our part is needed into what we hold dear, coz if there are some things we don't need to be believing you can bet that's going to bring some problems with it...may the Lord free us from all such things. AMEN

I don't know who witness lee is personally and haven't read any of his stuff, however after reading the above I'd guess he's the head of a cult. Generally they start by adding to the bible "thier books" on how to understand thier doctrine, usually they explain it outside of the Bible and then they modify the Bible much like the JW's inorder to make it(The Bible) fit thier doctrine. I 'd be cautious of starying to far from the teachings of the early church fathers. As for denominational names? God still looks at the heart and we are still on a faith walk.When I obtained a copy of the Recovery Version of the Bible, I first took my Greek commentaries by H.C.G. Mole, Lightfoot, Westcott and others and compared the text. I took key verses which I believed would be representive of the whole of it's translation and for many months I made it my habbit to take verses and compare them in this way.I have to testify that without fail, in any given text, when I would come to Moule, and he would quote a standard version and then would say, "this literaly says "....." This was the text in the Recovery Version. I have found it to be the most accurate and enlightening translation. It's design is not to be as readable as many of the newer translations who often smooth things out to make it flow in a more readable way, but it's goal is to be as accurate in its wording to convey the actural meaning of the Greek text.The footnotes as in any "study bible' are extensive with cross references. I have found them to be the most accurate in conveying the meaning of any given text in it's context. Many times when I would read a footnote I would say, "what? where did he get this?. Then I would take the text, pray through it, look up the cross references and sure enough I would see, "yes this is the sense of the Aposles words". The footnotes in the Recovery Version are primarily taken from a book by book commentary written by Witness Lee over a 20 year period. These are called "LIfe Studies of the Bible by Witness Lee" It is a massive work and it takes the books of the Bible line by line and expounds it from the point of view of "God's Economy" which is the core of the New Testament as Paul states in Ephesians and 1 Timothy. And this "Life Study" was the core of Witness Lee's ministry for 20 years and the content of all the trainings and conferences during that period. God's Economy in a nut shell is "God's Eternal Purpose in creating man to dispense Himself in Christ into Man to be His expression on the earth." And it begins with Genesisis and Adam and the Tree of Life, an aspect of the account not usually addressed in most theologies. and it takes into account mans fall, and Christ's redemption to reconcile us to God and to bring God into man, and concludes with the New Jeruslem which is according to the Bible the consumation of Christ's redemption. The Wife of the Lamb, the dwelling place of God and the Eternal Divine/Human incorporation.A sample of the Life study on Genesis is as follows:"The tree of life was a symbol, signifying God as the proper source (cf. Psa. 36:9; John 1:4; 10:10b; 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 5:12; Col. 3:4). If we only read Genesis 2, we will be unable to understand the meaning of the tree of life. However, the Gospel of John reveals the life denoted by the tree of life in a concrete way. John 1:4 says, "In Him was life," and John 15:5 tells us that the Lord Jesus is a vine tree. If we put these two verses together, we will realize that Christ is the tree of life. Jesus, the embodiment of God, is the tree of life. Therefore, the tree of life in Genesis 2 is a symbol of God as the source of life."_______________________________________________________The notes are purely expository and there is nothing read into the text but the text is interpreted in light of the whole revelation of the Bible as any commentary should be.It was Watchman Nee who testified that he always wanted to write a complete commentary on the whole Bible. But He was imprisoned and martyred and appointed Witness Lee to take the ministry to Tiawan, and eventually to the US. It fell to Witness Lee to complete the task.I was schooled in evangelical Christinaity in an excellent Bible school and have known the Lord for 30 years. I have never found another work that is as enlightening, as scritpural, as cohesive, and consistant as this work on the entire Bible.I find it sad that anyone would key in on one or two notes which are of the most "contraversial" nature to represent the spirit and content of the footnotes. And if all the related footnotes on Revelation were read it would be seen why he believed this was the understanding of Babylon, the harlot, and her many daughters. And also a reading of Watchman Nee's "The Orthodoxy of the Church" would show this as Nee's understanding as well.Graftedbranch

An interesting measure of 'cult' might be just how easy it is to leave! If 'leaving' results in ostracism you can be sure you have a cult on your hands. This is simply because 'control' is at the heart of 'cult'. Consequently a 'cult' may be as small as a local church or as large as a denomination.I find the word "cult" to be not the best word to use. I believe, "heretical sect" is a better word as today the word "cult" is a psycological term and it's standard is modern psycology. Christians have adopted this word and added theological implications as well. And now, any thing considered "outside the norm" or outside of the practice of traditional Christianity as found here in the US is considered "cultish". Christians have mixed modern psycological standards with tradition and the bible and that is the common standard of judgement, not the pure revelation of the Bible.However that said, I have met with the beievers in the local church for 3 years and can testify that in my whole experience for 30 years as a Christian I have never been among believers and experienced the liberty and freedom that I have among the saints in the local churches.There is nothing required, No one tells you what to do, what to read, what meetings to attend, how much to give, what to wear, who to marry, or any such thing. There is no "authoritative control" There is the liberty of the Spirit and whatever anyone does it is out of the Spirit's leading and conviction, not from any compulsion from any 'authority". Saints are "shepharded" to the Lord and encourged to seek the Lord, enjoy the Lord, study the Bible and get into the ministry, but there is no force, no compulsion, but rather the demonstration of a Christ filled life. And any "fellowship" I have recieved from any leading brothers regarding some decision goes something like this, 'What is the Lord telling you to do brother? I encourage you to follow the sense of Life in your spirit." And in regards to our meetings (we have small home meetings during the week), rather than "authoritative control" I usually recieve a phone call in the order of, "brother, we were thinking we might do this or that study and wanted your fellowship on it". If a new one or anyone comes in and brings up a question or shares something other than the intended "study" we let the plan go and follow the Lord in what is being shared.In the large meetings on the Lord's day it is completely open. Anyone who comes is free to participate, to share in the Lord's table. to call a hymn, and to testify and share in the meeting. If a person leaves the church, they leave and the saints who know them will surely pray for them. But no one comes running after you and trys to talk you down or tries to captivate you. The Spirit is the One who capitivates us and that not to our "group" but to the Lord Jesus Christ.I like the story of Witness Lees beginnings in Tiawan. He came and it was circulated among the locals that there would be a gospel preaching meeting. Several hundred people showed up. Brother Lee said to his co-workers, 'there are too many people here" He then went on to say to the people, "we are here to offer you Christ alone. If you are here to get a job or to have your marriage helped, you will not find it here. We have only Christ to offer you. If you want Christ, come back." He then went on to preach this wonderful Christ to them.The next day only half showed up. Lee said, "this is better" these are those who are the real seekers". The local churches are not interested in maintaining numbers or keeping people under compulsioin. The local churches are only interested in those whom the Lord brings and enlightens to the riches of the mystery of God's economy and see the reality of the body of christ and have it in their spirit to meet with the saints as the church in their locality.We should be careful not to throw around terms and assign them without knowlege based simply on speculation and heresay.Graftedbranch

bro Groh frogA little while ago we were discussing the "All Saints" church in Florida. They believe in same-sex marriage, homosexuals leading church, etc. Now, do some there know Christ? There might be. But are they also teaching a doctrine contrary to scripture? Most definitely. Now, just that is enough for me to stay away- their beliefs are shown to be corrupt and aren't edifying those learning in a way that serves God.bro i agree with you in that the doctrine that they are teaching as far as homosexuality is concerned is wrong but so is a lot of what most denominations uphold concerning marriage and divorce. As per Christ's instruction an man or woman may divorce because of marital infidelity but not remarry because that causes them both to commit adultery. except in the case of death, noone can remarry. if you ask people in most denominations they'll probably tell you that it's ok to remarry after divorce for whatever reason according to their beliefs. does this turn people away from said denominations? not likely. also we should remember that while there are some things wrong with the differeing denominations, there are some things which are of God that we would do well to know and learn. Now, when we go so far as to classify cults, it works on the same premises, but with other doctrines- namely that of Salvation. For example, the Jehova's Witnesses: Christ wasn't God, didn't raise from the grave, and his crucifixion was only partial in atoning for our sins. Do they teach the message of salvation? No. Are some saved in that group? I really doubt it.but isn't it also the same with differing denominations ie differing doctrine? pentacostals believe that for one to prove he/she has been baptized with the Holy Spirit that person must speak in tongues, that is not a biblical teaching at all, in fact it was one Paul preached against in his letter to the Corinthians. that is an example of twisting scripture to to fit their belief or just flat-footedly rejecting the scriptures for something else. But with many things- predestination, evangalism methods, etc., I think there's room for debate. So, I go to an Independent Baptist church, but I call myself a Fundamental Christian. When I talk to a Presbyterian, do I dis-associate myself? No. They serve the Lord, and even though we might understand some things differently, they havn't twisted God to "fit theri box", as the Cults do.As far as predestination goes Paul said this to the romans in romans 829 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.that says that good knew ahead of time who would be His and those ones were destined to be conformed to the image of Christ. it's spelled out simply enough as far as i can tell (i like simplicity...less headaches :-? ) at any rate i guess there is room to debate if our beliefs aren't in line with God but if they are, then there is no such need. but how then is a cult different from a denomination? if they both adhere to some strict belief which isn't of God but have used scripture incorrectly for the purposes of backing what they believe? :-? So, in conclusion, I think it's important to not say "I follow Pastor ______," but to know doctrinal beliefs of differing denominations and cults to be able to know what they're really teaching.agreeing with you totally on the last bit! we should be sure of what we hold to in terms of doctrine and see to it that it's of God. on that last day we won't be able to say "oh but God so and so told me this so i just held to it" that won't fly...praying the Lord frees us from all such bondages. AMEN.

As per Christ's instruction an man or woman may divorce because of marital infidelity but not remarry because that causes them both to commit adultery.Just to be clear, the Lord Jesus said specifically, that if a person divorces and remarries "Except for the cause of fornication" he commits adultry. He included remarrying in the "except' otherwise it would make no sense to say, A person who diveroces except for the cause of fornication commits adultry. It is only the remarrying that is adultry if the divorce is not 'for the cause of fornication.And Paul in 1 Cor. In regard to a believer who is married to an unbeliever and the unbeliever departs, he says, "the believing one is not under bondage in such cases"We need the whole testimoy of scripture and we need to be accurate in our interpretation of it.But I must add that I don't believe this is the nature of this thread which is "the Recovery Version of the Bible" Graftedbranch

If you re-read what I posted I was laying a formula, if you will, on discerning a cult. Cults follow a pattern and from the little I've read of with this group its all the same. The word of God says the spiritual man judges all things. While symatics is one thing, to call the organized churches devices of satan because they have the label or name baptist, methodist, etc... is a pretty broad stoke of the pen and shows that they have some serious issues they really need to address before they can presume to even claim to be used of God in any real impactifull way,John 17:20-21 Father, I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word. That they may be one; even as You, Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.1 corinthians 3:3-5 For you are still fleshly. For when one says, I am of Paul, and another, I of Apollos, are you not men of flesh? What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Ministers through whom you believed, even as the Lord Gave to each one of them.1 Corinthians 1:2 to the Church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, whith all those who call upon the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours.__________________________________________________In 1 cor. 1:2 we see the Church is of God and it is in Corinth. God is its source and Corinth is its location. And it is made up of all who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus who call on the Name of the Lord. And that together with all who call upon Him in EVERY PLACE. Christ is both theirs and ours. Paul gave this introduction to the Church in Corrinth specifically because there were divisions among them. It sets the stage for the whole epistle.This is the basis of the Church.The local churchs consider that in the bible there is no such thing as the "church of Paul, the church of Peter, the Church of Apollos and according to Paul's word to make such divisions based on this or that person or this or that special teaching or practice such as a mode of baptism is to divide the Body of Christ and fails to recognize that the body of Christ is universal and icludes all believers.IN the Bible there is only local churches. there is the Church in Ephesis, the Church in Thyatira, the Church in Pergamos the Church in Corinth, the church in Jeruselem, the Church in Antioch, the Church in Thessalonica, the Church in Phillipi, and the Church in Rome. There is no distinction other than locality. Then there are the 'Churches in Galatia" which is plural because Galatia is a Province, not a city and there were many local churches there.Why is this? It is because the Church is the body of Christ and Christ is not divided. To segregate ones self and to be a Baptist Christian is to make "mode of baptism" a center for division. And to take is as one's name is to officially denominate oneself according to a speacial teaching. This is not found in the Bible but Paul in 1 Cor 3 says that these divisions are fleshly. Lee did not come up with this, Watchman Nee did not come up with us. IT is just the plain revelalation in the Bible.The Divisions which exist in modern Christianity are not the product of the Spirit but the product of the flesh. They are the result of opinionated men and those who followed them in their opinions. The Spirit never builds up divisions but the Spirit always brings us into the One Accord and the Unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace.To say that one cannot be used of God who embraces and labors to build up local churches as the local expressions of the body of Christ is to say that God is for the divisions and that only those who seek to maintain them and build them up are useful to God.According to this kind of thinking. Paul could not be used of God because he did not endourse divisions or denominations.And as far as being "used of God' there are 3000 local churches in the world not including mainline China. There have been 300 churches raised up in Russia. There are over 1,000,000 believers in China who embrace the ministry and in Tiawan, through the ministry of Witness Lee the church grew in 5 years from 400 to over 50,000. And the fruit of the ministry can be seen in the depth and reality of Christ, His manifest presence in the meetings of the saints and in the fruit of the Spirit seen in the lives of the believers in the local churches.And the local churches are not the "churches of Witness Lee". They are local churches built up through the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee just as the church in Corinth was established and built up through Paul and Apollos. But they are not the churches of Paul and Apollos, they are just the church and they are of God and in Christ.And I would also add that relegating the local churches to "cult" is to use a "broad stroke of the pen" without even any knowlege of what is being spoken of.Graftedbranch

Dear Brother Greg,My post of "bingo" was immature and not in the spirit of God. I really do not want to write off the witness lee movement at all I am sorry that my comments went down in that direction. I think there is some good fruit from that movement. But at the same time there definetly are "cultish" tendencies from that movement which are abit scary. But I know there is much good divine truth in it also.Who am I? I am nothing, and yet I am your brother in Christ. I just wanted to give you praise for showing such humility. I think we could all take a lesson from your good example of what it means to be truly humble. You are the administrator of this message board, and yet, you stepped down from this high position to show us what it means to be truly humble. May God bless you brother. I also pray that Christ might bless me with humility such as this. Thank you,In love,Blake