Two fold - ? and something happening

God, I hope so. And I'm not using that name in vain! GOD, please revive us. Burn out the lies in the church!Today I sat in church and heard a very in-deapth sermon about the cross. No Law. No need for repentance. Nothing but the humanism that offers eternal life for nothing!And as we left I heard a few people saying that that was the most powerful sermon they'd ever heard. How can it be? It's just a small part of the truth!God, please. We need a change. How can so many actually claim to follow you, and yet deny you in everything they do?Be with us, Lord.

So the Cross is a "small" part of the truth? The Cross is "humanism that offers eternal life for nothing"?The Cross is the very foundation of my faith! Maybe the law and repentance is the foundation of your faith, but without His death on the cross you could not repent, for there would be payment for your sins.1 Cor 1:18 "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it IS THE POWER OF GOD." Gal. 6:14 " But may it never be that I would boast, except in the CROSS of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world".Col. 1:20 "and through Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His CROSS..."A small part of the truth? What exactly are you going to add to the cross for your salvation?

Hi Dorcas,Having read through the thread you recommended, I see that GF has a zeal for his understanding of the Gospel. I don't think his comments were "strongly ironic", just strongly arminian. To say the cross is a "small part" of salvation? So it's the Law + repentance + the Cross + goods works = salvation? Thats the exact picture I get from so many on these forums!

Hi Dorcas,GF did mention works," How can so many actually claim to follow you, and yet deny you in every thing they do?"Doing is working. This statement to me is judging others as to their works, which is dangerous ground to tread.Apparently some people who heard the sermon he describes were blessed by it, "the most powerful sermon they've heard", why critize that? Maybe they heard something GF didn't?

Hey, Jimbob.Dorcas, you're right, that I should be more clear in what I meant.Jimbib, I think I must have been unclear. Man, if not for the cross, we would have nothing. But what I meant to say, was that if the cross is preached inappropriately, or out of contect, it's impossible to convey it's meaning.What I saw today at church was a liberal pastor share the love of God to a group who barely, if at all understand their need for the cross. This is where the difference is.If you tell somebody that they can have eternal life because of Jesus' sacrifice, good. That's a part of it. But until they understand their sin, and their need for the cross and repentance, they can never understand the Grace of God, or the justice of Hell.Ray Comfort has a good sermon on this called "Hell's Best Kept Secret". One of the best examples he gives is of two men on an airplane. Well, you give each a parachute. The first is told that the parachute will make his flight more comfortable, while the other one has it explained to him that his plane will crash mid-flight, and without that parachute, he will die.Well, part-way through the flight, the passengers start to look, and mock, and laught. The first man doesn't understand. He's not more comfortable, as he was told he would be. So, even though he tried it out, he didn't find what he was promised, and he takes off the parachute.Now, the second man knows why he needs it, and no manner of laughing or mocking will even phase him, because he's got a different focus.This is what I meant to say. The Bible promises four things for believers: 1, Persecution, 2, Temptation, 3, Trials, 4, Eternal life. But so many churches, including this one, only give a part of the whole truth.Romans 7:7, Paul says "I would not have known what sin was, but by the Law." You can't expect a person to just know that they're a sinner. "Every man proclaims his own goodness". And before they can understand Grace, they must be made to see their sin, and the fact that they deserve Hell, leading them towards repentance.In the words of John the Baptist, "Repent!", and Jeusus, "Repent or you shall perish." But that's not a common message anymore. People say, "See, Christ died so that you can go to heaven". They make God nothing more than a means to an end. And that sickens me. Anyway, I hope I cleared that up a little more. Grace and Peace...

Looking back also, to be more clear on specifics, I mentioned a very "in depth" sermon. Oh, it was!If there was a way to get you to think about the physical act of the cross, it was there. Stories of soldiers sacrificing their life. Scripture after Scripture on the Love of God. But what I just said, although it talked very much about this one thing, it only touched this.I firmly believe that when you honestly see yourself for who you are, you will be convicted. And conviction must be present for repentance. And repentance must be present to understand the Cross. If all the Cross was to you was a ticket to glory, you're missing something. In "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", by Paris Reidhead, he talks about this a bit. He goes so far as to say that "The only people God can use are those who say something like this: 'God, I want to serve you because you are worthy, even if I go to hell in the end'".Now, if you've seen me "judge" others, know that it's in the way that I've seen myself. When a person who claims to be a Christian is living in their sin, and calling it "God's will for them", I guarantee that they have no love for God. Why, because they don't know him! He doesn't see himself in need of a savior, but rather he accepts Christ's sacrifice as a blanket to allow him to sin without reprecussion. To him, God is meerly a means to an end. And this is the god that many churches are preaching.I say again, God, I pray for a revival. There's so many lies and deceit misguiding so many. Please, burn the impurities out of those who carry Your Name. And it's because of seeing entire congregations of people who carry on their lives like this that makes me begin to understand why I should pray that the end times would come soon.Grace and Peace...

GF,Thanks for the clarification. I do see things a bit differently though.If repentance was necessary to understand the cross as you say,then you make salvation a work. You should follow the biblical example of Peter and Paul.In Acts 2:14-38 Peters first sermon did not harp on the law or mans need for a savior, he told the Jews that Jesus was the one the prophets spoke of, that He was crucified(by them), rose again, and poured forth the Holy Spirit that they were witnessing.When they heard that, THEN they were convicted THEN they asked "what shall we do?" After they were convicted merely through the preaching of the cross THEN Peter said "Repent and be baptized"Not convinced?Acts 10:34-44Opening his mouth, Peter said:I most certainly understand that God is not one to show partiality,but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF PEACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST(He is Lord of all)you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.You know of Jesus of Nazerth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him on a cross.God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,not to all people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him recieves forgiveness of sinsWhile Peter WAS STILL SPEAKING THE WORD THE HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON ALL THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."No preaching of the ten commandments, or of repentance, just believing in Him for the forgiveness of sins. The listeners did not DO anything in this example but receive the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Good News.I could give more examples but my point is there is no formula, God can choose however he wants to convert people, I know this from my own experience. As far as seeing other Christians living in sin, you know what Jesus said about that, take it to him in private, take a witness, take him before the church etc... If your church doesn't understand what sin is, find another church! But there is no point in fretting about it, lawlessness will increase, false prophets will arise. Just a friendly reminder, (because I have seen this in myself so often), that when we look at the sin of others (Christians or not) we (or at least I) totally forget that we are guilty too! So when you judge, don't condemn.

Hey, jimbob.I've gotta say, that I think I'm right along side with dorcas on this one. I think we're speaking the same thing, but I'll try to clear it up some more with you.First of all, though, I completely agree with you, that salvation is of Faith alone, without works. But, what do you think about James 2? I'm looking at the section on faith and deeds. He says, "Faith without deeds is dead".While Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear, "For by grace thou hast been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." I agree that without faith, you've got nothing. But if there are not deeds that accompany your faith, because of that faith, you have a false faith, which is preached more often than you might realize.Again, like dorcas said, look at the audiences that Paul and the disciples were preaching to: It was Jews! They knew the Law. They had been raised understanding the wrath of God, and knowing to fear the Lord, so it was a revelation to receive His grace.There's some columns that discuss the use of the Law in evangelism around here. And having seen the false message that is commonly preached- one that offers the gifts of God as a "prime product, and not as a by-product" as Paris Reidhead says, is really sad. Just look around, though. As Leonard Ravenhill would say, "What are you saved from? Are you saved from lust? Are you saved from sin? Come on, what are you saved from?"Basically, there's a message that says, "You don't want to go to that stinking, rotten, nasty Hell, do you? Well, accept Jesus so you can be saved." Again, as Paris Reidhead said. It's nothing more than humanism, and demands nothing from the believer. But, rather, once you see yourself as a sinner, and you really understand the Cross and Grace, it will give you a reason to really serve the Lord in your life. God is no longer a ticket to happiness, but a just creator worth serving.Now, does God intend to make us happy? Of course! But again, "as a by-product, and not a prime-product."Again, listen to "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", and "Hell's Best Kept Secret," by Paris Reidhead, and Ray Comfort, respectively. I think they could explain it much better than I can. I'm not always the most articulate writer. ;-) Grace and Peace...

GF,Apparently the Jews didn't know the law that well,or they would not have crucified their messiah.Read Pauls sermon on mars hill Acts 17:22-34, again, he did not hammer on the law to these people (Gentiles).I went to all the trouble of typing out that sermon of Peters(with two fingers)and I guess you don't get it, no formulas!Try telling people what Christ has done for you, His death, resurrection, and His abiding Spirit dwelling within you, and leave the convicting of sin to the Holy Spirit, thats His job, not yours.

Dorcas,Did you read the paragraph I wrote above the one you quoted?You would CONDEMN someone? We are told to cut someone off from fellowship as a last resort, condemning is for God alone to do, Jesus came not to condemn but to save.Maybe let's quit drinking from the Paris R, David W. and Ray C. coolaid punch bowl for a while a try living by Grace.

bro Jimbobthe Lord has had me start reading through the Acts and thisWhile Peter WAS STILL SPEAKING THE WORD THE HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON ALL THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."No preaching of the ten commandments, or of repentance, just believing in Him for the forgiveness of sins. The listeners did not DO anything in this example but receive the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Good News.didn't seem to add up.36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.The Holy Spirit did not come to the people Peter was speaking to while he was still talking. Peter testified that Christ was indeed the Messiah (vs36 of Acts 2) and then it says in vs 37 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? they were convicted of their sin. and asked what they ought to do now. Peter replied 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Being convicted of sin makes us aware of the need for a saviour. Repentance acknowledges the work of that saviour and cleanses us from our sin making us a fitting temple for the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can't come into a dirty temple. Peter didn't say anything directly about the 10 commandments except that the people were guilty of killing Jesus (which is a violation of thou shalt not kill) but that led to convivtion, which led to repentance which led to baptism which led to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Peter spoke of the need for repentance then baptism. i say again the people were first convicted of their sin, repented of their sin and were baptized and then and only then did they receive the Holy Ghost. not only that but in vs 41 it says 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.you wrote I could give more examples but my point is there is no formula, God can choose however he wants to convert people, I know this from my own experience.but the above is the formula for salvation. one must be convicted of sin or else one isn't even aware of the need for salavation. without that knowledge, the gospel is foolishness. then one must repent, then be baptized. i see the word "judge" thrown about a lot by people, most times out of context. when God judges, He tries by fire to see what manner of work it is or He is punishing sin. When Christ said don't judge lest you be judged yourself, He was saying don't go about seeing a crime and punishing it as you see fit because you will be punished too by the same measure when your turn comes. that is way different from pointing out error or saying that a brother or sister is wrong about something. One can tell a tree by the fruit it bears and if a pear tree is growing peaches, something is off and needs fixing...

bro JimbobApparently the Jews didn't know the law that well,or they would not have crucified their messiah.if the Jews hadn't killed Christ we all would be hellbound so someone had to do it :-? However God still gave the ones who condemned Christ to die opportunity to repent of that. always when Peter preached the gospel the Holy Spirit led him to point out sin (for the need of salvation) repentance (for the working/acceptance of salvation) and baptism (for the outward showing of salvation) This was always repeated and the Lord added to their numbers daily: Acts 2 vs 47, Acts chapt 4 vs 4, Read Pauls sermon on mars hill Acts 17:22-34, again, he did not hammer on the law to these people (Gentiles).Paul did say that these people were supersticious (practising idolatry a violation of the first commandment) this conviction of sin set the stage for the need of a saviour in Christ. in vs 30 paul says that they need to repent after which they had to be baptized. this is a recurring pattern which the Lord had set in place that men may be saved. if we deviate from this, men will not be saved. if we don't follow what the Holy Spirit's direction we will have no success in pleasing God at all. Try telling people what Christ has done for you, His death, resurrection, and His abiding Spirit dwelling within you, and leave the convicting of sin to the Holy Spirit, thats His job, not yours.The Holy Spirit will always lead one to speak against sin and the need for repentance before baptism. if one isn't convicted of sin then salvation means nothing.

If repentance was necessary to understand the cross as you say,then you make salvation a work.I believe that is a statment that makes no sense. Let me use an example.Imagine I am you boss. I tell you, "Stop working and just go home. And I will pay you." Would you get mad at me for telling to do 'works?' No way! I am telling to you stop doing something. How on earth can you say that repentance is a work when repentance screams, "Stop doing what you are doing!!" I do acknowledge that if you stop one thing, it is impossible not to do another. It's impossible to do absolutly nothing. Sitting is something. When you repent you stop doing what you are doing, and inturn start doing something else. Ofcourse you won't do anything else unless you have a new heart. Does that make sense?EDIT: to understand what the cross did you do not have to repent, but to have salvation you do. You have to know what the cross did before you will repent and trust in grace.