Predestination and Free Will

brethreni am led of the Lord to bring this up again. The Lord had me going through the epistles of bro Paul in Romans 9, he writes about the reckoning of Israel. He writes about how the children of the promise God made to abraham came from isaac and how rebecca's twins before they were born (and so had no chance to do any good or evil) were distinguished by God as one being hated and the other loved. This was all before the foundation of the world. This demonstration of the very sovereingty of God is quite troubling to us is it not? That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world. When bro Paul wrote to the Ephesians he said the same thing in chapt 1 vs 4-5, that before the world was made He chose us according to His good pleasure and purpose. what then does this make of free will? i used to think that the Lord knew ahead of time who would choose Him and who wouldn't but it seems to me a rather creative way of getting around God's sovereingty and allowing for my concept of free will. there are probably a few who think as i did but today the Lord showed me that my concept of free will was wrong. we have free will in the confines of the Lord's sovereign will, we can't do anything that He hasn't decided we can do. concider the vessels of wrath the Lord has created. from before creation these ones had be determined by God to be vessels of wrath destined for destruction so they can't obtain salvation because it is outside the Lord's will.

free will and God's soverignty is a trip. what i have always thought (and i could be wrong) is that God works through our choices. He knows from before we were even made what mistakes we are going to make and things that we are going to chose, and through that in His wisdom He worked out a way that He still has His will done even in the choices that we make....i dont know if that makes sense. it made sense in my head...what about Ishmael? wasnt he out of God's will? could he be someone picked out for God's wrath because He knew from before time that Abe would be disobediant? one time i was witnessing to a guy and he asked me 'if God loves someone so much but He knows before he is created that he is going to hell, why would He even create him?' it goes along with your: That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world. i wish i knew the answer to that and if anyone does do tell :-) one thing that i havent been able to get my mind off of ever since God shed light on it was just the fact that in His good pleasure and mercy, He chose me. My heart is so broken and humbled by this, that i am a vessle of mercy. Im greatful in my heart for everyone here at SI too who by the abundant mercies of the Lord was chosen to walk with Him and inherit His kingdom and be partakers of His Divine nature. It's so amazing i dont even have words for it. And on top of that, He has opened our eyes and entrusted us with His burden for His church! Praise the Lord, He is so good!!!

hi, when i was outside earlier tonite i walked up to the door to this building and it said entrance, i opened the door and turned around and the same door said exit. anything that is ahead of you is whosoever will may come and as you go through life you will turn around to see Gods sovereign hand in everything.can a traffic light be red and green at the same time? it is always red and green at the same time. it depends upon which way your coming from. the key is IS GOD THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND OUR SALVATION OR IS man. jimp

bro ShirHashirimin romans 9 in this portion answers the why to God showing mercy on whomever He chooses. He is God and He can do that. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?the Lord has shown me though that this showing of mercy to whomever He chooses is a mystery. it is written plainly in scripture how He operates but we need to seek Him through His Spirit for that mystery to be revealed that this enigmatic aspect of God be made plain. let us seek Him then.

Wow, My wife and I have been praying about this very topic for the past couple of weeks.I grew up believing in Free-Will and I think I still do in some degree. However after reading Romans, predesination does seem to make more sense. I know a lot of people use it to say that God has chosen Israel (and I used to believe that), but I just don't see it that way anymore.This verses keeps coming back to my mind: Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

bro Jaysavedwell Israel is still the chosen people of God in that the promises made to Abraham still stand. the promise of that whole land (which is significantly bigger than what the state now occupies) forever and so on. so as gentiles we have no part really in that but we are reckoned righteous and given every Spiritual blessing in God through Christ. Some people believe that now the church is the new state of Israel but Paul says in the letter to the Romans in chapter 11 that this is not true. God has not abandoned His people but has caused them to stumble not so they fall but so that we gentiles can be grafted in to the tree and in so doing provoke them to jealousy so that they may be grafted back into the tree after the full number of gentiles is brought in.

If what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him. As if God were proud or had some kind of Ego complex.

ShirHashirim,As for why would God create someone knowing they will choose be damned? The one line answer is this:Because the chance of Love is worth the risk of loss. The more than one line answer is this (as far as i've figured it out anyway):Also how can creation appreciate the true beauty of light if there is no darkness?God allowing those to be created who, reject every offer of goodness, and choose damnationserves several purposes:1. It proves to everyone that there really IS a choice and shows the concequences of both. If only rightous people were allowed to exist then our "Freedom of will" would be in name only. If we were not automotons we would at best be moral infants never having learned obedience by the things we suffer. 2. It shows and demonstrates the Goodness of God in that He doesnt just wipe out those who choose to reject Him. It give God an oppoutunity to demonstrate His mercy in a practical way. Again it Illustrates and proves His Chracter. 3. It shows that God is redemptive, even in that those who choose evil can be ultimately used for something Good. Only a master artist can make a mistake into a work of art. Even in the destruction of the wicked poetry is found. It's an all Powerful God who can make even Judgment beautiful. 4.Thus those who reject Him still play a role. God clearly places the choice before us to be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. We all the time know our children make the wrong decisions but to deny them the chance to make the right ones would not be love...even if we know what they will choose. Remember, not one person in Hell will protest being there but will cry in anguish over their own folly. If those in Hell dont think God is unjust then shouldnt we, here on earth have the same opinoin?

quote 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Jesus contradicts this, saying:Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Matt 12:25What's the point of striving and prayer if you are destined for wrath? We all have complete free will within our gift of life. You think about and plan and go about your day in the way you please, don't you? How obvious does this need to be? No vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse is going to convince me otherwise. bubbyguy in all due respect, the vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse you are referring to is Romans 9:21.If God choses to make some people his objects of wrath, that is his decision and his right to do that. Take a look at Pharaoh in Exodus. Paul says in Romans 9:17-18 - "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." I am not completely abandoning the "free will" doctrine but I have to make it line up with the word of God and Romans (to me) clearly teaches that God predestines some people for destruction and some for mercy.The question was asked, "Why then should we witness?" Because the Bible says that we should. God has used us to be ambassadors for the gospel and it is our job to spread the good news.John 6:44 says "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him:John 3:16 says, "whosoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have eternal life". What must we do to be saved? Believe that Jesus is Lord. But how does a person come to Jesus? God draws him/her. Is it possible to believe that God draws some and not others?I am still trying to figure this out myself. I am leaning more towards predestination but I grew up on "free will" so I still lean in that direction as well.

How might this thought correspond to what is taught in Roman's 9?2Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. In ChristJeff

bro bubi'm not sure how the scripture you quote about Christ saying a kingdom divided can't stand contradicts the one of the Lord saying through Paul that the potter makes vessels of mercy and of wrath :-( could you explain that?as far as how i plan my day, i used to do as i pleased until i realized that while i was in the Father's permissive will i really needed to be in line with His perfect will so now i try to do as He would have me do. you may want to keep doing as you please but i don't...i do not always carry this out but i thank the Lord He has quickened me to being sympathetic to His perfect will.Also remember Christ quoted many O.T. scriptures, in fact those are the only scriptures he quoted because the n.t. wasn't complete as we know it. the o.t. isn't just a must read but if we don't understand it and study it, the new testament means nothing to us. One could try and say tha the o.t. is done but it is abolished in as much as the law is the key to righteousness, we are not exempt from following the law coz Christ said so Himself but we are reckoned righteous through Christ and not the law. Some may say that the Lor doesn't judge as harshly in the n.t. but look at revelation and annaias and sapphira...we had better not neglect the O.t.

bro SJIf what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him.why preach the gospel? to find the vessels of mercy...read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and you will see that it is so. We are created in God's image in that we are tripartite beings, body soul and spirit as He is tripartite, Father Son and Holy SPirit. What the Lord is saying to me is that we have gotten the concept of free will wrong. it's not that we can do any old thing but we can do anything in the confines of the Father's will. I don't see how this keeps the Father from turning those against Him to ones being for Him because we are all born at odds with Him because of our sinful nature and are saved still. our concept of what free will is is wrong. this predestination is a mystery which needs that we seeek the Lord on it with all diligence and if need be we must cast away whatever doctrines we hold dear if the Lord reveals them to be contrary to what He would have us believe...not many of us are willing to do so hence all the false traditions in the "church" which we hold dear.

bro Jaysavedit is a hard thing to understand isn't it? let us seek the Lord for the revelation of this mystery. i believe though that our concept of free will is wrong and letting the Lord correct us on that will make a huge difference. the text is plain enough, the hard part comes in when we try and make it fit into what we believe, i think we should adjust our beliefs as the Lord leads. Correct us Lord.AMEN

Not to derail the post..but since i dont know how to pm. I say this:Christ chose Paul and approved of him. To question Paul is to question Christ. You cannot accept Christ and reject Paul for this reason:Christ spoke not on His own but by the Spirit,Paul spoke not of his own but by the Spirit.To reject any Scripture (Peter says Paul is Scripture)is to reject the Spirit (who inspired it) which is to reject Christ which is to reject the Father.This is why Christ stressed that He did NOT speak of His own authority but by the Spirit of the Father. So He tied His own authority to the Father, so to question Christs choice of Paul or to question Paul AT ALL is to question God Himself. To not believe that the Holy Spirit can speak flawlessly though flawed men is to have more faith in the power of man than God. That's not good...

Forced Love is not love.If God makes us Love Him then it is not Love plain and simple. Calvanists insist that God makes people convert against their will. This is by definition NOT love. Also, yes we have a threefold nature just like God, but we have a moral nature just like God.He can choose between good and evil (of course evil is an abomination to Him so He would never choose it) but it stands that He could otherwise Christs temptations was just a bit of good acting. Man, who is in Gods nature, can choose between good and evil. Otherwise all the commands in the Scripture to choose are mere cruel mockerys if we cannot "choose this day whom you will serve." It's mere theatrics according to pure Calvanism. It becomes nonsense to say "God so loved the word that he gave His ownly begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." and "Whosoever will may come" and most cruel yet is "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and i will give you rest"This doctrine of Christ only dying for the "elect" is what held people in bondage in Finneys day brother, they wanted to be saved but was instructed that they could not be unless God had enabled them. Finney taught that it wasnt that you cant be saved it's that you wont [make the decision to] be saved. Ephesians 1 teaches that Christ is the predestined one and that we become part of him when we believe. We enter into His predestination as it were. Romans 9 has to be taken in context with other Scripture like:2 Timothy 2:20 "20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."A man can choose to go from being a vessel of dishonor to a vessel of honor by repentance and faith in Christ. It also says "If a man." not "If an elect man"In other words the invitation is open to anyone, if God intended it to be exclusive He would have framed the invitations that way. If the Gospel is not to everyone how are your hearers supposed to know if it applies to them or not?To say "Those who respond must be the elect" sounds like an excuse more than a theology.Not that you do that, i'm just saying... Not to sound rough, but Calvanism killed itself. It led to passivity for the most part (some exceptions allowed) and so it died the death of time. I admire Whitfield and others like him but i cant say i understand them. Why even pray for someone who is going to be converted anyway and if they are not you waste your prayers on an infidel who has NO chance of conversion and you never know who is who. At least i can see hope for every one of my prayers because there's no gurantee ANYONE will be lost and there remains the good chance that ANYONE might be saved. Calvanism is a hopless system it is the doctrine of Evolution did you know that? Everything is predetermined. It is the doctrine of Islam "if Allah wills it." i dont then see how it can be the doctrine of Christ also.

sj,Please explain how Romans 9 is being taken out of context.Thank you.Edit: You are saying that it needs to be taken in context with the other scriptures and I would like you to explain more about that.Thanks

John 16:7-12 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Who is the One that convicts of sin, and Judgement? Why does the world need to be convicted of sin and judgement? Who is Righteousness? Is it the devil that makes me do it? This plainly shows that the devil is judged already and we can't blame our unbelief on Him anymore. All that we have for salvation is from the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.We cannot acknowledge the truth unless God give us repentance. Once all this has been accomplished all we have left is to believe, and to those that won't believe, they are already chosen for destruction. Destruction was chosen for us by Adams sin in the garden and unless God steps in and provides all, even to the ability to repent and believe, the ones left are these that are the ones that are chosen for destruction. Destruction was already there, but God has chosen some for honor that God might be glorified. This is how it was all predestinated before the foundation of the World that we might be in Christ.Ephesians 1:4-12 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. God did not choose to destroy endividuals, they were already destroyed in the garden, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.God did choose those that would believe for His Glory. This is about as close as I have come so far to the Glory of Predestination and Choice. And Yet the Holy Spirit is still revealing the things that Jesus said to the apostles that could not receive at that time. We are receiving those things now and will continue to receive them throughout all eternity. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us that we would be Glory to the Father by His only Begotten first fruits Son of those that become son's.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.We are identified with Christ and in Christ, by His works. Paul from his mothers womb chosen to preach this mystery and even before that.Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, (my works) then Christ is dead in vain.In Christ: Phillip

bubbaguyok we will go back and forth through the private message then