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Judging Revivals

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CyberCarbon Dec 20, 2005

The problems I see with judging revivals is one I do not have the eyes of God, I can only see a very small portion of what happened and the effects.I do not know the mind of God nor the state of the believer’s hearts involved. As far as the effects on the community, if you look at Los Angeles some would claim the Azusa Street Revival NEVER happened.Yet, that Spirit is still rippling through the world this day.What we are really trying to do is agree on definitions, concepts, and results. This is Gods business and the process of pursuing this will rob us of any chance of ever being involved in a real revival, because of our own unbelief, our own pride, and just the act of questioning is this real or not. God requires complete surrender, humble prayer and obedience NOT our approval or agreement.How many revivals have started in the ecclesiastical mature churches, i.e. the Romans, the Greeks, or the Lutherans, Baptists, or even the AG’s lately. I think in most if someone was overcome with the Spirit the Ushers would try to quietly escort him or her out so they would not unset the rest of the fellowship. Man's judgments are one of the great barriers to real revival as I see it. May I ask, what do the rest of you think?

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sj Dec 20, 2005

Agreed...The Lord pointed out to me that as much as we like to fault "the church system" God very often chooses that environment to pour out His Spirit. Lest we forget, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the Catholics, in fact i have a Grandma who is a Charaismatic Catholic and like it or not the woman knows God. I've seen her call on the Holy Spirit and ...well...He came.That's more than i can say for most "pentecostal" preachers. (note: I am one so dont get mad) Seems like if i go into a church and i can truly sense Love and the presence of God there, if God sees fit to show up who am i to scorn it?I can disagree with practice but who can disagree with Presence?Right doctrine(as important as that is) is NOT the deciding factor but rather hunger and desperation that determines if God will pour out His Spirit or not. The Pharasiees missed Jesus over doctrine. Doctrine is important to me but as a secondary to the heart, after all EVERYONE gets saved by an experience with God not by a doctrine.But more on that later. Christianity is an experience with doctrinal boundaries not a doctrine with experiental boundaties. And if a man knows God, God will fix his doctrine. But if a man clings ONLY to doctrine...not even God can help him. (See Pharasiees Biblical and modern for proof)I heard a preacher put it this way"God is not very picky" then gestures to the audience and says "have you noticed the clientel?"History proves that God uses people that we would NEVER choose. Which of us would have chosen Jacob? A liar. Or who would choose David. Adulterer and murderer.What of Peter? Even AFTER pentecost still making MAJOR mistakes (doctrinal mind you) and leading the church into hypocricy. There are people that are STILL offended by God chooing Paul. a former persecutor of Christians. Best (or worse) of all lets just look in the mirror friends if that doesnt settle the question of what Gods willing to use nothing will. About revival:When revival comes It's messy it's beautiful it's well...a baby. "When no oxen are stall stays clean, but there is much increase by the strength of the ox. So get a shovel and keep on working"- David HoganOf course the Scripture summs it up best:we have this treasure in earthen vessels so that the exellency may be shown to be of God and not of men.

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tacklebox Dec 20, 2005

I cannot read the New Testament and still whole-heartedly agree with the previous two posts.We are living in an age of great deception, and we should be very careful about what we label a movement of God or the prescence of God.Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what these two have said, but I think Jesus is still very jealous of His bride, and she's flirting with all sorts of things nowadays.I am beginning to think the whole idea of revival is being misunderstood. It seems some are quick to label anything that brings about changes on a large scale, usually centered around a church or individual, a revival. The great revivals of the past preached Christ and Him crucified, sin, hell, repentance, holiness - they didn't overemphasis manifestations of the Holy Spirit. People flock to these "revivals" because they think by going there they can finally experience "the real thing." It is another influence of our microwave, McDonalds culture where we want someone else to do all the work and we just want to pull into the drive-thru window, get our blessing, and then go back.People used to flock to hear Finney and Whitfield, but not to get a "blessing." I've read accounts where they went out of curiosity (like Ben Franklin with Whitfield), while others went for the spectacle - but the preaching was so annointed, that they either would leave, try to silence the man, or get saved.The emphasis on Brownsville may have started with repentance and salvation, but if these people have exchanged a genuine move of God for what they have now, I fear what God will turn them over to.-Chris

sermonindex Dec 20, 2005

The Bible is crystal clear that we as believers have the responsibility to weigh all things against scripture. This would most definately include so-called "revivals".In many (most?) "revivals" that are reported today it doesnt take a rocket scientist to discover many false teachings and unbiblical activities. I know because I used to be very involved in many of these "revivals". I'm a veteran of the Brownsville "revival".Many people today say "Look at all the people getting saved... it must be a movement of God!" Not so fast, says I.Have people gotten saved at these "revivals"? Certainly I believe that some have truly been saved. Conversly tho, I believe that there have been many false conversions, and many that have been led astray. The Christ that is preached among the WOF "revivals" is certainly not the Christ of the Bible. Without a clear understanding of Christ and who He is, one can not be saved.To say that we can not judge these "revivals" against scripture is to ignore the clear commands of scripture and is spiritually dangerous. To say "who am I that I think I can judge whether it is of God" is to display a false humility... and I say false humility because I've done that in the past with the deep desire to appear more spiritual.The ends do NOT justify the means. If a "revival" is emmersed in false teachings and activities then it is not of God. Plain and simple. Can someone get saved in those "revivals"? Yes... but I believe true conversions are not as plentiful as people think.I will agree that we can not judge other peoples hearts, intentions, etc. If someone tells me "I got saved at one of these "revivals"." then I will always believe them, and not judge their salvation. Thats not my place.But we are certainly commanded in scripture to judge all teachings, doctrines and activities against scripture to see if these things be of God or not.It cant be any more plain than that. Pretty simple.For those who claim we can not judge these revivals I ask this: Why dont you accept Mormonism as truth? What about Hinduism? How about Fundamentalist Islam? Who are you to judge that those religions are not of God?If you believe those are false religions then you have JUDGED.Krispy

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Sir_Edward Dec 20, 2005

I know this may sound shocking coming from an AoG pentecostal minister but -- I don't believe that Azusa Street was a revival! For the simple reason that 3 years after it started -- the church was a horse stable again. It may have been a renewal of something lost to the church -- but not revival in the truest sense of the word as many define it. I think that what it became was a catalyist for change in the church to be open to the Holy Spirit again.There is discussion on can we define a revival -- while I understand what you are saying. It seems to be very much the typical -- well its all God's timing and plan. No disagreement but I also believe revival is ever before us if one simply understands what it is and have faith that leads to action to recieve it. Revival is ultimately giving life to the dead. It is a return of spiritual life where the church is seek God's kingdom and his righteousness and thus the world is touched. It is a return to the Holy Spirit moving on the church like he did in the beginning -- The truest test of this being Acts 2:37-47. There are a multitude characteristics that showed the church was alive and it is these same characteristics that happen and are seen when a church is revived. This is the test of genuine revival -- does it look and have the character of the origianl life the church had at the beginning. 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 (1)They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and (2) to fellowship, (3)to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 (4) Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and (5)many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 (6)And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 (7)Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and (8)breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 (9)praising God and (10)having favor with all the people (11) And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. I count no less than 11 qualities ( I numbered them) this church had and if a church is missing even one of them it needs revival.Perhaps it is better to think of it in terms of limited revival vs. full revival rather than revival vs. renewal. If some church gets say #2, 4 , 9 in a revival but not the rest -- it was a a limited revial and not a full one.To say though that we do not have a standard which we have been given to judge revival is false -- The Word does give us many examples particularly here in Acts.In the other post on Brownsville -- which ones did that church possess? I don't know completely I was not there, but I can tell you, not all of them nor did it maintain some of the ones it gained. Partial revival and not a lingering one. Almost like a temporary healing. Joy for a while and then the disease returns due ot neglect or flase assumptions. Blessings.

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CyberCarbon Dec 21, 2005

While we debate, argue, discuss, and weigh is it or is it not a revival, God's Spirit anoints another with the simple faith of a child.

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GaryE Dec 21, 2005

Dear Sir Edward,If Azuza Street turning back into a stable is the criteria to be used to decide whether revival happened, it doesn't say much in favor of the place of the Lord's birth. Also, I'm also told that the original churches in Asia are no longer in existence. Permanency can't be the rule that defines revival.In Christ,GaryE

sermonindex Dec 21, 2005

While we debate, argue, discuss, and weigh is it or is it not a revival, God's Spirit anoints another with the simple faith of a child.If you are against these types of discussions among brethren then why are you here? Why do you involve yourself?I'm not being negative toward you... just curious why there are those who condemn the discussions here, yet they continue to involve themselves.The Word says "Come, let us reason together" ... and I believe thats what happens here more often than not. And I for one think it's a good thing.Krispy

sermonindex Dec 21, 2005

If Azuza Street turning back into a stable is the criteria to be used to decide whether revival happened, it doesn't say much in favor of the place of the Lord's birth. Also, I'm also told that the original churches in Asia are no longer in existence. Permanency can't be the rule that defines revival.I tend to agree with this... the Methodist church was born out of a great revival. Now look at the mess they're in.Krispy

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Sir_Edward Dec 21, 2005

Why is it that people continue to make anologies that are not equatitive with what is being talked about. The Lord's birth is not a movement of beleivers dedicted to a cause like Asuza Street was -- it is a historical event in the life of Christ. The stable in that case was not for the purpose of changing the people of God into something greater, it was simply a place for his birth. Were talking revival here, not the lIfe of Christ. I cited the stable mearly as an small evidence anyway -- It is interesting that none of you so far have engaged the passage in Acts 2 I have used so far. Very interesting. Because if we use the Word -- Brownsville was a revival in the making but it failed -- that is all I am saying and I want to know why not becasue I want to bash it -- but to learn. The pentecostal movement -- as wonderful as it is and was -- (Remember you are talking to a ordained Assemblies of God minister here) has its issues -- among them -- lack of stability of faith (I have seen it we follow any wind of doctrine as long as it is loud and has a lot of flash it must be good) , expereince surplanting the Word as authoritative and quite frankly a rejection of basic Christian holiness in a lot of cases. I am not going to just stick my head in the sand and just say everything is great. Revival can be defined and engaged. I personally only see very few moves of God as what we really need. I am sorry there are at least 11 Biblical criteria to study if a revival is genuine -- probably more. The problem is everyone has an expereince and they arrogantly suppose that it is true -- because they can't be wrong. That kind of spiritual pride runs amok in the charismatic / pentecostal circles -- I know I rub shoulders with them all the time -- I am one. The biggest problem is that this movement of which I ma a part does not like to be criticised -- nor do they handle genuine criticism well -- they throw out the baby with the bathwater often - "This is of the Holy Spirit, don't judge it" is nothing more than a pale covering over spiritual pride and lack of correctability. Honesty assesment of spiritual condition and testing the spirits are also of God and his Word too. Listen I love my movement -- but I also know that like any car engine you have ot treak it to get maximunm performance and if a part goes bad you need to identify it as so and change it. You don't just let it stay and not be able to run like it is supposed to or designed to.Asuza Street was not the kind of revival it could have been -- it focused on one aspect that had been dormant fora long time -- lack of spiritual gifts in the church. It succeeded in restoring these to the church toady for which I am eternally grateful. But it needed to be open even more to become everything it should have became. it could have changed the moral face of America and even the world -- but in this is failed. Every revival stops -- I want to know why? But I can't do that if every time someone says there was a problem people say -- "don't talk about that you have no right to dimish what God did" Who is talking about God here? I am talking about his servants who do indeed fail him and do indeed cause problems. Revivals are not flawlessly perfect and to think they are just because you participated in them is nothing more that spiritual pride.Blessings.

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CyberCarbon Dec 22, 2005

There is not a revival checklist God has to complete to be certified "revival" by the revival approval committee. Humble believers, completely surrendered to God with a commitment to Holiness, and able to receive the Holy Spirit's touch is.I would rather be baptized by the Holy Spirit than ordained, How about you?All I am sure of is this, God is present and able. WE you and me are the problem, my opinion, my argument, my thoughts of any personal worthiness, my deeds, my theology, my denomination, my position, my education, and MY PRIDE are just a few of the many barriers I must lay down and forget and then get right with God. That is just a start; I have maybe touched the hem of his garment and seen glimces of His glory. I envy and respect any one who has been part of a deeper and richer interaction with God. It is much easier to criticize and be a skeptic, than enter the arena and do battle to know, to really know Jesus Christ. I am sure you can see who would really want you NOT to believe and who would want you to see and believe. The question really is can you.

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CyberCarbon Dec 22, 2005

To plum the debts of your wisdom, however I doubt I will ever have more than a 1000 posts. I also try to keep them short enough to read. I also try to use my thoughts not millions of lines of cut and paste thoughts of others like some do

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

Why the attack on me? Wow... I was just making an observation.You come against debates and discussions, yet you involve yourself in them and even start them. But when someone joins in who may not agree with you you imply that it's wrong to debate these issues.I look at it this way... iron sharpens iron. And there are a lot of folks here that I have not agreed with, yet grew to really love and respect. And there are some on here who I have learned much from because of these discussions and debates.I think it's healthy and needed. How else do we learn?One thing that should not be tolerated here is personal attacks, which your last post is. To quote Al Gore... there's no need to be snippy. (Besides, it's not very Christ-like.)Kinda reminds me of a fox. A fox will not attack you until it's cornered. I suspect that many times on here there are those who personally attack others because they can not back up their points, support their beliefs or bolster their argument. So they feel cornered and attack.My experience on here is most of the people who have "cornered" me on issues are only doing it because they love me and want to share their thoughts. There is nothing negative in their hearts about it. Thats how I feel toward you, friend. And I am very open to being wrong about things too... ask anyone who has been here for any length of time.So take a deep breath... and a chill pill... Merry Christmas, my friend.Krispy

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GaryE Dec 22, 2005

An ostrich is a bird, but it can't fly. I wonder how many people who ridicule revivals or men of God from the past are experiencing revival in their personal lives and, or in their current church home. My personal experiences show me that the people who are most critical of others and tear down churches with their words are like the ostrich. Usually, their criticism has a ring of truth, but what they are criticizing in others is missing from their own life.Once, I made a statement to a very proud professor that had just explained to me that he was in the Lord for years and knew the bible quite well that none of us have arrived. I had said to him, some think they have arrived when they get saved, others when they where babtized in the Holly Spirit, but none of has arrived. This professor went into a rage. He thought he had arrived, yet it was very obvious that he was a very proud man.Has anyone heard the story of the man who went into a church that didn't believe in speaking in tongues as being for today and told a deacon of that church about his new found gift? The deacon said, "We don't want any Holy Spirit in here." Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?In Christ,GaryE

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CyberCarbon Dec 22, 2005

You are right and the Spirit tried to tell me to rewrite that last post, and tone it down. I got lazy was tired and did it anyway, and I have been haunted all night wondering how you would respond. Please accept my apology, for being Un-Christ like; I had a very long day. I spent 12 hours at a County hospital it can really tire you physically and mentally. However, your posting moved something in me. I should of thought more about what you took the time to write and waited but I shot from the hip and hit my foot, then fell and stumbled. I will try not to limp around too much. God bless you for your grace and gentle spirit of correction, please know I am receiving it and will try to do better.

B
bluinos Jun 9, 2006

I was lead to an autobiography of Charles Finney, which spoke very clearly to my heart and then the Spirit of the Lord --- lead me to read about D.L. Moody.

INCIDENTS FROM MOODY’S DAYS

When Dwight was about six years old, an old rail fence one day fell upon him. He could not life the heavy rails. Exhausted by his efforts, he had almost given up. “Then”, as he afterward told the story, “I happened to think that maybe God would help me, and so I asked him; and after that I could lift the rails”,

“When I was a young boy-before I was a Christian – I was I a field one day with a man who was hoeing. He was weeping, and he told me a strange story, which I have never forgotten. When he left home his mother gave him this text “SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. But he paid no heed to it. He said when he got settled in life, and his ambition to get money was gratified, it would be time enough then to seek the kingdom of God. He went from one village church, and what was his great surprise to hear the minister give out the text, SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD, He said the text went down to the bottom of his heart. He thought it was but his mother’s prayer following him, and that some one must have written to that minister about him. He felt very uncomfortable and when the meeting was over he could not get that sermon out of his mind.

AGAIN SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD

“He went away from that town, and at the end of a week went into another church, and he heard the minister give out the same text, Seek first the kingdom of God. He felt sure this time that it was the prayers of his mother, but he said calmly and deliberately, No, I will first get wealthy. “He said he went on and did not go into a church for a few months, but the first place of worship he went into he heard a minister preaching a sermon from the same text. He tried to drown – to stifle his feelings; tried to get the sermon out of his mind, and resolved that he would keep away from “church” altogether, and for a few years he did keep out of God’s house. My mother died, he said, and the text kept coming up in my mind, and I said I will not’ no sermon ever touched me; my heart is as hard as that stone, pointing to one in the field. I couldn’t understand what it was it was all about – it was fresh to me then. I went to Boston and got converted, and the first thought that came to me was about this man. When I got back I asked mother, Is Mr. L ----- living in such a place?” “Didn’t I write to you about him? She asked. They have taken him to an insane asylum, and to every one who goes there he points with his finger up there and tells them to seek first the kingdom of God. There was that man with his eyes dull with the loss of reason, but the text had sunk into his soul – it had burned down deep. O, my mother told me he was in his house, and I went to see him. I found him in a rocking chair, with that vacant, look upon him. As soon as he saw me, he pointed at me and said, young man, seek first the Kingdome of God. Reason was gone but the text was there. Last month, when I was laying my brother down, I could not help thinking of that poor man

who was lying so near him, and wishing that the prayers on his mother had been heard, and that he had found the kingdom of God.

It is doubtful, however, if young Moody had experienced any real religious feeling up to the time of his conversion in Boston. He was a boy like other boys – unlike the majority, too, in his imperious will, his indifference to obstacles, and his boundless energy. He was as fond of mischief as the average boy. The influences of a farm-boys life, tempered thought they were by the forceful direction of a devoted mother, were not calculated to cultivate in him a taste for the finer things of life. His passionate outbursts of temper are still remembered by those who early came into contact with him. His profanity is a matter of his own record. Still, he was doubtless in this regard merely a type of his environment. The notable thing about the boy was his force; he bore in his endowment great possibilities of good and ill.

HIS EALRY EDUCATION

Perhaps only twelve terms at the district school constituted Dwight’s early education. A smattering of the three R’s a little geography and the practice of declamation made up the sum of his learning. The truth of the matter seems to be that he did not study faithfully. It was only during his last term that he began to apply himself with diligence, too late to make tip for what he had lost. His reading is described as outlandish beyond description. With his characteristic tendency to jump directly to the heart of a question, he never stopped to spell out an unfamiliar word, but mouthed his sense of it without full dependence upon his training or made up a new word which sounded to his ear as suitable as the original.


Of his experiences as a schoolboy Mr. Moody has given the following in his sermon On “Law versus Grace”

THE LAW PARTY AND GRACE PARTY

At the school I used to go to when I was a boy, we had a teacher who believed in governing by l aw. He used to keep a rattan in his desk, and my back tingles now (shrugging his shoulders) as I think of it. But after a while the notion got abroad among the people that a school might be governed by LOVE, and the district was divided into what I might call the law party, and the grace party; the law party standing by the old schoolmaster, and his rattan, and the grace party wanting a teacher who could get along without punishing so much

After a while the grace party got the upper hand, turned out the old master, and hired a young lady to take his place. We all understood that there was to be no rattan that winter, and we looked forward to having the jolliest kind of time. On the first morning the new teacher, whom I will call Miss Grace, opened the school with reading out of the Bible and prayer. That was a new thing and we didn’t quite know what to make of it. She told us she didn’t mean to keep Order by punishment, but she hoped we would all be good

children, for her sake as well as our own. This made us a little ashamed of the mischief we had meant to do, and everything went on pretty well for a few days; but pretty soon I broke one of the rules, and Miss Grace said I was to STOP that night after school. Now for the Old rattan, said I to myself; it’s coming now after all. But when the scholars were all gone she came and sat down by me, and told me how sorry she was that I, who was one the biggest boys, and might help her so much, was setting such a bad example to others, and making it so hard for her to get along with them. She said she loved us, and wanted to help us, and if we loved her we would obey her, and then everything would go on well. There were tears of joy in her eyes as she said this, and I didn’t know what to make of it, for no teacher had ever talked that way to me before. I began to feel ashamed of myself for being so mean to any one who was so kind; and after that she didn’t have any more trouble with me, nor with any of the other scholars either. She just took us out from under the LAW and put us under GRACE.

DEPARTURE FROM HOME

The circumstance which led up to the departure of young Moody from home have been variously stated. He had come to the age of Seven Teen. In those days a boy of seventeen was supposed to be ready to enter upon the serious business of life. New ambitions were arising in Dwight’s heart. Mr. Edward Kimball, who afterwards led the boy to the Lord, is perhaps as well informed of the circumstances of his life in Boston as any man now living. He gave the facts as he was familiar with them at the time of Mr. Moody’s death.

“To tell the story correctly, “said Mr. Kimball, “I must go back to Thanksgiving day forty-five years ago. A Thanksgiving family dinner party was assembled at the Moody home, which was on a farm a mile and a half from Northfield, Mass. At the table, among others, were Samuel and Lemuel Holton, of Boston, two uncles of the Moody Children. Without any preliminary warning young Dwight, a boy of about seventeen, spoke up and said to his uncle Samuel: “Uncle, I want to come to Boston and have a place in your shoe store. Will you take Me?” Despite the directness of the question, the uncle returned to Boston without giving his nephew an answer. When Mr. Holton asked advice in the matter from an older brother the Dwight, the brother told his uncle that perhaps she had better not take the boy, for in short time Dwight would want to run his store.

YOUNG MOODY LOOKING FOR A JOB

Dwight was headstrong young fellow who would not study at school, and who was much fonder of a practical book. His expressed desire to go to Boston and get work was not a jest that the boy forgot the day after Thanksgiving. The two uncles were surprised when one day in the following spring Dwight turned up in Boston looking for a job. His uncle Samuel did not offer him a place. Dwight, when asked how he thought he could get a start, said he wanted work and he guessed he could find a position. After days of efforts, and meeting nothing but failures the boy grew discouraged with Boston, and told his uncle Lemuel he was going to New York. The uncle strongly advised Dwight not to go, his uncle Samuel knew perfectly well what he wanted. But the uncle insisted so that a second time the boy asked his uncle Samuel for a place in his store.

“Dwight, I am afraid if you come in here you will want to run the store yourself”, said Mr. Holton. “Now, my men here want to do their work as I want it done. If you want to come in here and do the best you can, and do it right, and if you’ll ask me when you don’t know how to do anything, or if I am no here, ask the bookkeeper, and if he’s not here one of the salesmen or one of the boys, and if you are willing to go to church and Sunday school when you are able to go anywhere on Sundays, and if you are willing not to go anywhere at night or any other time which you would not want me or your mother to know about, why, then, If you’ll promise all these things, you may come and take hold, and we’ll see how we can get along. You Can Have Till Monday To Think It Over.

Submit to God, and please don’t ever stop praying for me.

T
Tears_of_joy Jun 9, 2006

bluinos, I enjoyed your post! Is this from his biography? Can you post more?

God bless you.

L
letsgetbusy Jun 9, 2006

A friend of mine picked up some good advice from one of his preachers. He said if someone seems to be under the influence of the Spirit, this is the way to discern whether it is real of false. After the man flips up in the air and floats back down to the ground, watch where he goes after his feet are on the ground, and look at his checkbook record.

Sage advice.

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