Since God is present in all times ( He was, He is and He will be) from His point of view, everything is predestined. From our point of view ( we can only move forward), it is all free will. The real question is our relationship to time itself.
Since God is present in all times ( He was, He is and He will be) from His point of view, everything is predestined. From our point of view ( we can only move forward), it is all free will. The real question is our relationship to time itself.Some thoughts....I would not say everything is not predestined, for that is like saying everything is pre-determined also implying that we don't have free will. Free will is not a point of view or perspective. Free will is having the a will apart from God's will that is capable of defying God's will. If humans cannot make choices, if we do not have free will, then we would not have the ability to sin. For sin is defiance of God. Additionally, love is a choice. A person chooses to love. Without free will, we would not be able to love, as we could not make the choice of love. Animals do not have free will. Because of this, animals do not have the moral law, and they do not sin. What animal has been accused of sin? They also cannot love. All animals are selfish, and none will sacrifice thier life in order to save another. All of humanity, however, has been granted a choice. When Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden, they were given the ability (free will) to choose. God told them not to eat from the tree. God knew they would eat from the tree, but He did not force them. Here is the difference, I believe, that many people miss entirely. They confuse predestination with foreknowledge. Adam and Eve were given a choice. Thier future was not pre-determined. God did not make them eat off the tree. God did not make Adam and Eve evil. Rather, it was thier own choice. They chose to sin. However, God knew in advance they would make this choice. God had foreknowlege of the whole scenario. Because of this, God had a plan in advance of how to address the situation. God did not predestine Adam and Eve's steps. God predestined the outcome to Adam and Eve's steps. Adam and Eve was granted the choice to defy God will and sin against God. In order to give them this choice, God established a system whereby Adam and Eve could do such a thing. In this system, God limited us immense. One of the limiters in our existence is time. Time is a limiter of knowledge. Humanity lives under a constraint of time which means our knowledge is limited to a single moment. We know the past only in memory. We don't know the future. All we really know as reality is the present. And so, our knowledge is extremely limited. God is not limited in knowledge. God can see everything, everywhere, at all times. If Adam and Eve had known in advance what evil is, and what it does, do you think they would have eaten from the tree? They would have know in advance the horrors of life without God, and how evil brings about pain and death. If they would have had this knowledge, thier choice of not eating the tree would have been based upon selfish reasons. They would have not eaten from the tree because they would have known it would hurt them. Rather, God wanted Adam and Eve to trust in Him despite thier lack of knowledge. God wanted Adam and Eve to have faith. Adam and Eve did not know the full extent of the outcome they would face. And so, when God told them, "Do not eat of the tree," they should have trusted in God. They should have had faith and believed in God. However, they did trust in God. They trusted in themselves. Because Adam and Eve trusted themselves more than God, it was the same as saying, "I am greater than God." When we don't trust in God, then we are trusting in our own abilities and instincts. We are saying, "I know better than God." This is blasphemy. Because of this act of sin, God had to cast Adam and Eve from presence. God had to rebuke them. God is life. And so, to be seperated from God is death. Just some thoughts.....Blake
My perspective on "free will" is that only Adam and Christ had free will in the highest sense. Adam used his totally free will to disobey and plunge mankind into slavery to sin and spiritual death.As children of Adam, how much free will does a slave or a dead man have? We choose sin because we are slaves to it. Even when we choose good, if we do it apart from God, we are still condenmed, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Christ used His free will to obey, thereby breaking the curse of Adam. In Christ we are no longer slaves to sin.Make sense, or am I just opening another can of worms?
bro blakeI would not say everything is not predestined, for that is like saying everything is pre-determined also implying that we don't have free will. Free will is not a point of view or perspective. Free will is having the a will apart from God's will that is capable of defying God's will.i don't believe that anyone can override the Lord's will or resist it.
IRONMAN wrote:i don't believe that anyone can override the Lord's will or resist it.Do you honestly believe that?2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.Are all going to come to repentance?
bro jimbobi hadn't taken into concideration that the word says we were slaves to sin before coming to Christ...whoa this rabbit hole is really deep :-? :-?
Another thought... have you ever done something that was not God's will? If so did you override His will by making your own decision?
Bro PreachParsleyindeed i do. as the Lord lead me through that passage of scripture He showed me something. The Lord is longsuffering to us, who is the "us" being referred to here? the body of believers is it not? The context of that scripture is not for all men, but for all believers many of whom at the time (and now) are unbelievers, hence the need for us to go out into the world.These ones have been chosen before the foundation of the world.you're right, not all will come to repentance but all those predestined to do so will certainly not perish.bro PreachParsley, i think our perception of free will as it was taught to us is wrong and we need to get it right before the whole mystery of predestination is revealed to us. i have learnt so much in the last couple of days it's been most amazing...let us continue to seek the Lord that this mystery be made plain to us.AMEN
Do you believe God chooses some to go to Hell? Or that He knows the end from the begining and knows who will "choose?"
bro PreachParsleyDo you believe God chooses some to go to Hell? Or that He knows the end from the begining and knows who will "choose?" yes i do because the word says that the potter makes vessels of mercy and others of wrath. God knows the end from the beginning but how could it be as He knows it if He did not will it? bro at the end of the day we are vessels of mercy and that is the bottom line. understanding the mechanics of it is proving to be quite a challenge and it may not be that we will understand it on this side (maybe the Lord may rveal it, i'm not sure) but as vessels of mercy then we have work to do, sowing the seed of the gospel so that the other vessels of mercy which are still in darkness may be quickened.God bless
If humans cannot make choices, if we do not have free will, then we would not have the ability to sin. For sin is defiance of GodSo where did this ability to sin come from?Yes, God is love, but He is also more than what our limited minds can comprehend. For example, how does a loving God fore knowing that Eve would eat of a tree that was to severe their relationship with Him?Unless of course there was another purpose for having it there, more than just creating man for Him to occupy Eden forever.God had that tree there so that man would sin and that His relationship with man would be severed so that He might destroy him that had power over death.Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.There is more to this than what we see in the Bible, there was a creation before Eden that caused the earth to be without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Death was riegning when God told Adam, the day you eat thereof you shall surely die. So the world didn't start with Eden, Eden was added to a world that was already existing, hence the wording that God said, "Go and REplenish the earth". The earth was peopled, what we don't know is by what or whom. I think that if God gives us these hints then we are meant to know. God never made Adam to sin, but in order to accomplish His plan He will make irristable so that you will choose to do so.There is no what if Adam did not sin, he had to sin so that one day a saviour would come and save mankind and destroy him who had the power over death that is the devil.God's purpose is clear, first He created a whole new class of beings He calls Man, but not just an ordinary creation, this created being called Man was to be made in the image of God Himself.Secondly in order for us to understand and to experience God's likeness we need to endure the opposite of what those attributes are, For example God is love, you will need to experince hate, envy, strife, etc..God is longsuffering, you will experience impatience.These are all the things that Paul was experiencing in Romans 7. He knew that love was the answer, he knew that doing good was the right thing to do, but he always hit a brick wall, because instead of being patient, he was impatient, instead of joy, sadness etc..Paul was looking for fruit that wasn't happening in his life, until He came to the real life in Romans 8.Has anyone ever noticed about what God said about that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:The LORD God said, ...."The man has become ONE OF US, to know good and evil....."Now compare that verse with this verseGenesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Karl
bro BlakeIf humans cannot make choices, if we do not have free will, then we would not have the ability to sin. For sin is defiance of God. Additionally, love is a choice. A person chooses to love. Without free will, we would not be able to love, as we could not make the choice of love. but we are born into sin with no choice in the matter as it is :-? we are slaves to sin because that is our nature and only God can call us out of that.
My love is very selfish, The only love That my Father can accept is the pure love of Christ. I can truly say I love God because He first loved me. The only vision I have ever had was in a long tunnel with a perfect light at the end as I could see it. The harder I ran and the more I tried to get to the Light It stayed at the end of the tunnel and no matter what I did I could never reach it. In the beauty of that light that I so wanted ot reach, I could not. When I stoped and just wanted the Light it began to come to me. When it enveloped me All I could do was give thanks and cry. That light has never left me and I am assured by the light Himself that no matter what comes as in all of Paul's awful lists, He is my Lord, and He loves me to the point of His own life given for me. I can only learn this love from the Author or that love. It is my choice to love God and in all His Glory, He is giving me the true desire of my Heart, and that is to love God with the Love He has given me and is teaching me to love Him, even to the depths of His own love for all His Children. May God richly bless you all, with the Love of a little Child in a manger that was sent by A Father's Love was beyond our knowledge, but by His Love is teaching us how to comprehend and return His Love. In Christ: Merry Christmas Phillip
Healingwaters wrote:God had that tree there so that man would sin and that His relationship with man would be severed so that He might destroy him that had power over death..Karl, that statement sounds like Mormon theology. God did not want or intend in His heart for Adam to sin, for God tempts no one.
but we are born into sin with no choice in the matter as it is we are slaves to sin because that is our nature and only God can call us out of that. So will all aborted babies go to hell? According to you they have sin. Burn baby burn? I don't believe it! Will we stand in judgment of our sin? Or Adam's sin?
Here are a couple of thoughts. I think there are 2 aspects of God's for-knowledge. I believe some things He knows but does not force and others He forces to happen. God is sovereign but I believe some have a, well I would call it a sick understanding of it. God knows the beginning from the end, but the question is, "does He 'enjoy' everything that he knows?" If He does not "enjoy" it, then why is it happening? I believe that there are too many 'if's in the Bible to say that man has no choice. What are the 'if's for? There is no 'if' in many verses if God forces everything. Will God punish us according to God's choice? Or will we be punished according to our own choices? That would seem sick if you are punished just because God would like to punish many, just because He wants to. I believe God gives us choice. I'll use an example later. I say all this reverently and if you disagree I am sorry, it just seems very wrong to judge someone if you forces someone to do it. It would then be your (the forcer's) fault, not the one being forced. He couldn't help it. If God forced everything no one could "leave their first love," but God took it!I also believe that God does will things to happen and their is no stopping it. There will be no stopping this world burning up or you standing in judgment before God. There is an element of both stances in just about everything. In salvation, it seems that, God moves sovereignly upon the heart. You cannot force God to "save" someone. Then you would have the choice when God moves upon the heart, you could either obey or disobey. Imagine a man that has a field. He has a slave and an employee. Which one would he seemly love more? The slave, whom has no choice to work, or the employee that chooses to work for him. The employee chooses to work for him and in turn the owner pays him. Which would would he get more joy out of? The one who has no choice or joyfull choices to work for him? No example is perfect but, I believe God loves you so much that you are given a choice.
bro PreachParsleyConsider Jacob and Esau.in Romans 9:13 Paul says:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder F35 shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. This is a reference to the O.T. Scripture of Malachi 1:2 which says:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by F1 Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel. It is clear that God had decided what would become of Jacob and esau from before they were born. Jacob was loved while Esau was hated, we see that clearly in what becomes of both men and their descedants. Jacob because the father of the nation that bears his name but esau's (also known as Edom)descedants are at odds with God and are judged by Him often and their lands are left in desolation (there are various pronouncements against edom in the prophetic books, one of which comes because the edomites laugh and scoff at Israel's own judgement but edom receives and even more severe one) Both did not have a chance to do anything for or against God but God decided so that His purpose in election may stand. Who are we to question why the Lord does anything as He does, He is God and can do as He pleases. i am reminded also of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained F1 thee a prophet unto the nations. The Lord has decided what is to become of everyone that would ever live. He foreknew (which can also be rendered fore-ordained) and knew what would happen, but nothing at all could ever happen if it were not His will. As far as what will happen to those babies that are aborted and have been and will be, God has determined what is to become of them and for you to misrepresent my position by saying this:So will all aborted babies go to hell? According to you they have sin. Burn baby burn? I don't believe it! Will we stand in judgment of our sin? Or Adam's sin?is irresponsible. After the Lord had me wrestle with him over this, i am convinced in my spirit and scripture says that the Lord has predetermined what shall happen. you don't have to believe as i do but no matter what, no one can escape the fact that in scripture God says "from before the foundations of the world I..."the mechanics of predestination as i've said before are proving to be most difficult to get our minds around, it is a mystery (which the Lord may or may not make plain) but at the end of the day there are vessels of mercy and those of wrath and the vessels of mercy are to go out into the world and sow the seed of the gospel to reach out to the other vessels of mercy (the reason for the Lord's longsuffering toward as in 2 Peter 3:9)our perception of free will is wrong, i used to belive as you did in that free will is being able to do anything i want but i'm finding it is not so. what we think free will is has been defined largely by culture and not so much scripture, let us seek the Lord and have Him correct us on that.
bro PreachParsleythere are a lot of if's in the bible but we still can't escape "from before the foundations of the world..."God knows the beginning from the end, but the question is, "does He 'enjoy' everything that he knows?" If He does not "enjoy" it, then why is it happening? I believe that there are too many 'if's in the Bible to say that man has no choice. What are the 'if's for? There is no 'if' in many verses if God forces everything. Will God punish us according to God's choice? Or will we be punished according to our own choices? That would seem sick if you are punished just because God would like to punish many, just because He wants to. I believe God gives us choice. I'll use an example later. I say all this reverently and if you disagree I am sorry, it just seems very wrong to judge someone if you forces someone to do it. It would then be your (the forcer's) fault, not the one being forced. He couldn't help it. If God forced everything no one could "leave their first love," but God took it!again bro, i don't fully understand why the Lord has things as they are but i know that if we try and take a look at such things or understand them on this side of heaven with this carnal mind, we end up with all manner of headaches...like you said it would seem cruel to be punished because God would like to punish many...but that is seeing it from this side of heaven and from here we do see through the glass darkly...that being said bro we disagree on this and i no longer feel led of the Lord to continue with this discussion so i'm not going to do so. The Lord has had me wrestle with this long enough for His will to be done, now i must focus on the responsibilities that come with being a vessel of mercy.God bless
It is clear that God had decided what would become of Jacob and esau from before they were born.I guess I do not see that. I believe God hated Esau because he sold his birthright.
My point about the babies is that how could they go to heaven by your position? Have they been born-again before they were born? Now if we stand in judgment for our own sins then yes, they would be innocent.I'm just throwing some thoughts out there.. I don't know alot.
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