England following Sodom?

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PaulWiglaf Dec 21, 2005

It's all over the news; England has just passed its Same-Sex Common Law measure, with Elton John and his "partner" as one of the first couples to "tie the knot" (shudder). Where does this end?The trouble sounds too much like what happened in Sodom and Ghomorra, with the Benjamites in Judges 19-21, and in several of the New Testament cities (like Ephesus, Corinth, etc.). In history, the Empire of Rome fell when it stooped to Sodomy, lasciviousness, vast spending of wealth on entertainment and wellfare, etc...all decaying the integrity of that Super Power: Sound familiar?May we fulfill the prophet Jeremiah's words, "Turn us again unto you, oh Lord, and we will be turned." Yes, in the name of Christ, let that be so. Amen.Among the faithful,Benjamin

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dullrainbow Dec 22, 2005

I heard this on the news today, became nausious very deep inside. Jeremiah learned well how to prayer from those before him. Lamentations 5:21Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.Psalm 80:3Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.Psalm 80:7Turn us again, O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.Psalm 80:19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved. Psalm 85:4Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease.

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

Let me ask the believers here on Sermon Index, why are we so concerned over what the world does, are we trying to change it and make it a better place for us to live in?There is nothing new under the sun.Paul tells us not to interfer into the affairs of this world, but to take what we need from it and leave it alone.The world will continue to do what the world will do, sin!By passing a few laws here and there to keep homosexuals from doing what they do, does that law make better homosexuals? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they will continue do so in secret. So does passing those laws make them righteous, because they can't openly declare their sexuality?In other words, are we trying to change them by passing laws?In 1967 according to David Wilkerson's Teen Challenge there were 1 Million known homosexuals in the world. 38 years later, there is no doubt a whole lot more.So what if they pass their laws and make homosexuals free to do whatever they want. Why are we involving in the worlds politics?Abortionists have been around for centuries, they pass laws to make it legal, but what if they pass laws to make it illegal? They'll do it anyways in secret. What Christians want is to live in a Christian world governed by the laws of the bible. But you can't push those ism's onto the world because it was not meant for the world, they will only do what thier nature can only do and that is to rebel.David Wilkerson said in his book the Vision that the true church of Jesus Christ would become more and more invisible and it would go underground. Underground meaning that it's voice will not be heard. Those so called christian groups who do activist work trying to change the world, and fight with gays and lesbians and abortionists etc.. will only bring more hate towards God and His Christ.As believers we need to leave the world to God (He knows who are His) and let Him lead and direct us to those who are fitted for the Kingdom of God.Karl

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

So what if they pass their laws and make homosexuals free to do whatever they want. Why are we involving in the worlds politics?This has nothing to do with worldly politics. Its to do with the word of God. Sodomy is one of the evils that is pervading the church because we are finding more of the world in the church then the church in the world. There must be church discipline and a standard for what is right and wrong in the church.Any person who continues in willful sin will be apart from God, no matter how much you have read the word of God or prayed to God. There needs to be an hearing of God's voice and heeding to it. And the voice says come to the cross and let go of all sin.

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PaulWiglaf Dec 22, 2005

Brother Karl,I agree somewhat. The passing of laws will only lead to a hypocrital nation; yet, if we search church history, Paul sought to vindicate himself before the courts as well as preach the gospel in them as well. Justin Martyr pleaded to the Roman emperor Titus for the protection of the Christians, while also proclaiming the Word with "power, with the Holy Spirit, and much assurance".Indeed, it was Christians that abolished slavery from England and America. Would we sit by and allow a man to be flogged because of his skin? Or would righteous anger course through our veins to counteract such measures of cruelty? Communism falls before the edge of the Holy Word's sword (read Richard Wurmbrand's testimony to see that); however, we can't fully remove persecution and sin (since that would be calling Christ a liar, who said "surely you will have tribulation in this world...you shall have persecution"). Let us, though, seek to abound in good works in every chance we can (including those who are judges, lawyers, and politicians among the fold; better a righteous judge than an unrighteous one: Ps. 1 and 2).Blessings,Benjamin

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

My brother Benjamin, I agree with you 100%.I would encourage you to re read my last reply and to see what angle I am coming from.WarmlyKarl

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

I agree GregWhat there needs to be which is hard to find in Churches today is a welcoming of those who struggle with homosexuality and the offering of help attached to the welcome, for I tell you the truth, there is such a hatred from the Church towards homosexuals. Not just towards the sin, but towards the homosexual himself.Gays have sought help from the church only to be riduculed and condemned by the Pastor and on down the ranks. Yes standards are necessary, so is longsuffering with those who desire to change, for some it can be instantaneous, others it's a long term. There are scores of homosexuals who have been hurt and betrayed by the very Church they have attended for years, the Church is much to be blamed and God is not impressed.I have come to the conclusion that the Church does not want to deal with homosexuals, they would rather have them outside their doors and go some place else and find treatment and then come back.Exodus International and other ex gay ministries are just a drop in the bucket and are generally situated in larger metropolitian cities and it's difficult for many to just up root themselves and to attend these conferences and sessions.The church today is a joke, and it needs an overhaul, we have left our first love. When we love Jesus, we'll love anybody, and love will cover a multitude of sins. Amen?Karl

sermonindex Dec 22, 2005

Amen, Karl.Greg, I think Karl has a point, about the process of overcoming sin. Only God knows a heart, and there are many other indulgences which Christians worry about less, which nevertheless betray an indisciplined or sloppy attitude towards obedience. Only the individual themselves will know if they have stopped lusting after a forbidden fruit. In the meantime, as they walk in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin, and we have fellowship one with another. It's a Holy Ghost thing, to know with glorious finality, that one has come into the experience of the victory, which Jesus won on the cross.

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philologos Dec 22, 2005

Are we to be the world's legislator or its conscience? Is our task to reform or to preach repentance?

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IRONMAN Dec 22, 2005

bro RonAre we to be the world's legislator or its conscience?Is our task to reform or to preach repentance? If we preached repentance wouldn't it lead to reform? repentance as i'm sure you know is not a very popular topic in most congregations. however i don't think we should just lay there and not call something wrong that is wrong. the bible condemns homosexuality and that being said many other things. in light of that, there is much more we need to be speaking out about :-(...bro Ron if i may ask, how do you feel about it?

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philologos Dec 22, 2005

Ironman ...bro Ron if i may ask, how do you feel about it? I have studied church history and England's history for many years and discovered that 'morality' goes up and down. It seems from my reading of the topics that a nation's collective conscience becomes defiled with passing years. God in his mercy brings an authentic revival and as well as bringing many into the kingdom of God it seems to have an effect on the unconverted too. It is almost as if it 're-sets the dials' of the conscience and things which have been tolerated for years become intolerable. This is then reflected in our parliament with changes in the legislation.I think that changes in legislation unless they truly reflect the feeling of the people are regarded as an imposition. What right does a government have to legislate my private life, is the cry.I think the only hope for England is an authentic revival of God-consciousness which convicts men and women of 'sin' - not immorality. I share the same sense of nausea that others have commented on when I see the events of the last two days, but I have to say that this is the kind of England that most English people want. It's what they call democracy. I'm not a particular fan of democracy. I don't know that it is particularly scriptural but I am required to 'submit' to the powers that be and so long as they do not impose upon me a behaviour that is in conflict with my life in Christ I will submit to them.Where there is unrighteousness in the execution of the law the Christian is required to protest and if necessary suffer the consequences of his protest. But as regards the marshalling of a 'moral majority' to force parliament to change and thereby impose the Christian concensus on a non-Christian population... I am unhappy with this. Those who live by the protest and the petition may have to be willing to die by the same.As to your comment 'if we preached repentance...' We must preach what we are sent to preach. Any other kind of preaching is a fake even if it uses the right words. I am not afraid to describe homosexuality as an unnatural perversion, but regards 'preaching against it'... I would prefer to preach 'for Christ' than against anything. This was Paul's personal testimony:“Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:17-18, KJVS) I cannot help but see a certain logical pattern in this commission.1. he was sent to them2. to open their eyes3. to turn them from darkness to light4. from the power of Satan unto God5. that they might receive forgiveness6. and an inheritance among the sanctifiedI think this is the gospel, a whole package and unless we are sent we can't even begin the process that follows. I can't find an equivalent to your 'bible condemning homosexuality' in this list. I think the emphasis is elsewhere. I can find very little in the record of the Acts about the preachers 'condemning sin', although I can see a lot of 'lifting up Christ'.Just my thoughts on the matter, as you asked.

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IRONMAN Dec 22, 2005

bro Ronthanks for being forthright about it all. you saidI think the only hope for England is an authentic revival of God-consciousness which convicts men and women of 'sin' - not immorality. I share the same sense of nausea that others have commented on when I see the events of the last two days, but I have to say that this is the kind of England that most English people want. It's what they call democracy. I'm not a particular fan of democracy. I don't know that it is particularly scriptural but I am required to 'submit' to the powers that be and so long as they do not impose upon me a behaviour that is in conflict with my life in Christ I will submit to them.AMEN bro i agree that there is that need on this side of the pond too. As far as democracy goes in the Lord's dealings with men when He handed down law there was no need for ratification by men...i feel that somehow democracy causes us to look at God in a different light, perhaps it's freedom of belief?when the Lord led me through the acts He showed me that the first thing that has to happen for a man to come to Christ is repentance and one can only repent when convicted of sin. that requires speaking out against it, i don't think we can dodge that responsibility. at any rate thanks again and God bless

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philologos Dec 22, 2005

Ironman's one can only repent when convicted of sin. that requires speaking out against it,This passage came to mind...“And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake. And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.” (Luke 5:6-8, KJVS)...and not a word spoken! Real repentance comes as a result of a revelation of the nature of God, although He may use the preacher to accomplish that.

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IRONMAN Dec 22, 2005

bro Ron...and not a word spoken! Real repentance comes as a result of a revelation of the nature of God, although He may use the preacher to accomplish that.very true, i stand corrected. thank you

sermonindex Dec 23, 2005

Philogos wroteam not afraid to describe homosexuality as an unnatural perversion, but regards 'preaching against it'... I would prefer to preach 'for Christ' than against anything.Wow, this really blew my mind. This is the very thing that Christ did. I hear preachers going around saying we need to preach against sin, yet the very thing that Christ did was the opposite, He gave them something that enabled them to overcome sin. Paul even said the same things by saying, paraphrasing, "you tell others not to sin, but you do the same thing".It seems to be in some circles that if you don't preach against sin your a wimp, but that is so far from the truth. We need to preach Christ and Him crucified. Repentance came on the Day of Pentecost not because Peter preached against certain sins, no sir, he preached Christ and in whom THEY crucified and 5000 souls repented and gave their hearts to the LORD Jesus.Peter preached another message that was just the same that received the same results. Thank you brother for sharing that wisdom, man that was good. Preaching against sin is not the answer, but preaching Christ is, and that alone is something that is rarely done.Well folks, I want to preach Christ and Christ alone. And now that I think of it and have observed over the years those who preach against this or that, I have found the one pointing the finger is guilty of the same crimes.I wonder what would happen if we preached the cross, preached Christ and Him crucified, I wonder what kind of results we would have.Oh yes the fiery burning messages of fire and brimstone are so popular and they make the ole hair to stand and makes you want to straighten up and fly right. Oh I have sat thru many of them, but nothing changes, it makes this old flesh feel good for a few hours and then it's over.Thanks Philogos for that..........that is refreshing to know.Karl

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PaulWiglaf Dec 23, 2005

I guess it's like everyone knows the building's burning; they just need to know the way out.

sermonindex Dec 23, 2005

PaulWow, I am speechless, that was perfect. Praise God for that, that is right on. The house is burning and Jesus is the door and the way out. Why preach to people that they are sinners when that revelation will come to them when we preach Christ and Him crucified.I am getting fed tonight boys. Praise the LORD.Karl

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ginnyrose Dec 23, 2005

I agree with everything said on this thread: revival must needs govern the lifestyle of all. However, I would like to present another perspective.Romans 13 describes to us the ministry of the civil authorities. Their purpose is to: be a terror to the evil. (v.4). Now who will define what evil is? Where will they get that information? I have had many clients tell me there is nothing wrong with Aortion (AB) because it is legal! Believe it or not, a lot of people look to what the civil law says to determine what is right and wrong! Carnal? You bet. Laws are essential to have an orderly society. So where is the inspiration going to come from in order to have this orderly society?Am I promoting that one should take an active role in lobbying for 'righteous' laws? No. But then I would not condemn those that feel called to do so..as long as they do not violate any Biblical principle. It must be understood the keeping of these laws will not make a nation righteous. Just provide its people with a place to live where there is law and order. History has also shown where there was revival, the law officers had nothing to do! Ideal, but it happens rarely, unfortunately.Just my opinion....ginnyrose