DrewIrwin
Dec 24, 2005
War? The Physical action of taking lives? Is it something Christ is calling us too?
War? The Physical action of taking lives? Is it something Christ is calling us too?
That is a hard question. I can say that I believe he has not called me to it. An interesting maxim of Leonard Ravenhill that someone who knew him wrote down said this:"Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would benefit our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!" - from Holy Trinity New RochelleWhat do we think about this? Ravenhill seems to be speaking of war that is not done out of defense and is preemptive, like (arguably) the one going on in Iraq right now. What do others think? Is the line blurry... are there certain wars that should be fought?
Try these: This is War!!??War and Scripture
Here are some resources for those Christians opposed to war as national policy. http://www.fcnl.org/ppdc/WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER! CHRIST'S LOVE IS!!Merry Christmas to you all.Bubbaguy
bubbaguy wrote:"WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER! CHRIST'S LOVE IS!!Merry Christmas to you all.Bubbaguy"Stever's response:The answer is found in Christ's Word- there will always be war until Christ returns to the earth. We will have peace for 1,000 years of Christ's reign on the earth during the Millennium. We will also have peace in the New Heaven and the New Earth. But until that time, we will never have peace, ever. The reason? Because of the sin nature inherited from Adam. Until ALL of us have reedemed, resurrected bodies we will be at war against each other- person against person, and Nation against Nation. James 4:1-4 tells us "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."Matthew, Mark & Luke have this to say: 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.Revelation tells us:Rev. 7:15-17 "and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."Rev 21:1-5 says: "1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."IN CONCLUSION:The Christian believer is called to Love his enemies. The problem is, we are not all Christians on this earth. There are also people who say they are Christian, and are not Christian.Until we see Him as He is, and We are like Him, will we have peace. We will have His nature, and we will be His people and He will be our God.We will all be in Christ, instead of being in Adam.God bless,Stever
While I do feel that the love of Christ resides in me too vibrantly to fight in a war and to kill the enemy. I do not believe that a Christian is committing murder by killing the enemy through order of the government. I personally don't think I would have would it takes to pull the trigger in the heat of battle, though I don't know for sure because I've never been in that circumstance. I've a friend in southern Europe who is an assemblies of God chaplain for a military base there and he has been a wonderful encouragement to our soldiers there. I do believe that we are living in the last days and that the Holy Spirit is drawing a line of demarcation within the church, and that soon the fake will be brought down and humbled. But I do pray for our national leadership and am aware that war will have a prominent role in how the Lord closes the show. I do know that after the rapture, it will be far harder to stand for Christ during that time, and that it will cost a person everything they have, including their life, not to follow the anti-christ. If you think it is hard to stand for God now, imagine what it will be like 4 those still here after the Church & the Holy Spirit is raptured! WOW!Anywayz, here's a verse that encourages me during these end times: "At that time His voice shook the earth but also the heavens. The words 'once more' indicate the removing of what can be shaken -- that is, created things -- so that what cannot be shaken may remain. (Hebrews 12:26,27)
"If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Rom 12:18To go out looking for a fight for whatever reason would be to betray the entire principle of loving your enemies, or blessing them that curse you.But sometimes you have to stand up and fight. "a time for peace, a time for war..." War is never pretty. Men are killed, even more live having seen and done things that scar them in other ways. But it is at times all too necessary.I don't think this is a conversation about this current "war on terror"- this question would come up no matter what fight is going on. Weather it's a fight against communism, terror, or Nazi rule, it's gonna get ugly. But where would we be without it?You can't go out picking fights for no reason. In fact, you've got to resist fighting for as long as possible. To endure- showing love for those that persecute you, right? Often times many facts can get buried in relation to war. While the Allies were praised as heroes in WWI and WWII, a little more media coverage in Vietnam showing the ugly side of war turned our fighting men into bloodthirsty killers without reason or remorse. A similar trend continues today, with some of our liberal media showing all of our shortcomings and setbacks, none of our progress or successes.If you're going to judge a war, first you need to know all of the facts. I think the way that I would phrase the original question would be something like "As Christians, are we called to be killers, murderers?" No. Anything but. But as Christians are we called to defend a highter standard- to give all for what we know to be right? To stand in the face of persecution and stop it in its tracks? To despise evil?I do want to make a side note of this war. I know that not all on this site are a fan of it, and many more are unsure. I'll tell you that I'm no fan of it- I'm participating in it. But I've also seen how much has been done. In the U.S., we lost how many on September 11? In Great Britan, how many to the subway and bus bombings? Around the world, how many are being killed because of a false religion- Islam? Honor those that have died- The Lord will give a crown of glory to those who died because of their faith. But we can stand up against those who want to kill us. And that's what we're doing. Not only for us, but for those who are helpless to help themselves.Iraq is a new country. Afghanistan is well on its way. We have a new government, with new laws. For the first time in its history, those people have voted in furthering their government. They have freedom to make their thoughts and opinions known without fear of torture or death. And now for the first time in a long time, a new environment has been opened to be able to share the Gospel without losing a head.Now, I understand that sometimes you have to be willing to be a martyr. Maybe someday I can be so lucky. But sometimes being a martyr means fighting for what's right, so that others can have the truth.Grace and Peace...
War? The Physical action of taking lives? Is it something Christ is calling us too?I don't quite understand the question. Who is "us". Is this speaking of us as Americans or us as Christians?We are told by Peter that the government "bears the sword" and that by God's ordination.As Christians we do not fight for the Kingdom. The Lord Jesus said, "If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My diciples take up arms."The Church is not of this world and so does not fight with the weapons of this world. But our nation is of this world and so it fights with worldly arms. And we as citizens of this this nation in the flesh are bound by it's laws and God has ordained the sword to the nations.But to us as believers we do not fight for "Christiandom". My relationship to my wife is dual. As a man and wife in the old creation we are directly related to one another. And we hold a particular relationship to one another. But this will end at death either of hers, mine or both. Or at the Lord's comming.But I also have another relatinship with my wife as a sister and a fellow heir of the grace of Life and as a fellow member of the body of Christ. And as such as we are built up together in the Divine Life this relationship will endure into the New Jerusalem.AS long as we are in the flesh we maintain a duel status. But when our bodies are transfigured and all of the Old creation is done away with, we will no longer have this relationship.The same is with our relationship to the State. As long as we are in this world we have an earthly relationship to the state. But we also are citizens of the City of God.We fight for our country in the name of our country under the flag of our country for the interest of our country. But our country is not the church and we do not fight for our country in the Name of Christ. We fight as citizens of the state under law and for the protection of the rights of our fellow citizens.Being an American and being a Christian have absolutely nothing to do with one another. We are not a Christian country. We are just a country. A Nation of this world. And this nation has no more status in the Kingdom of God than any other. And so to apply the laws of the Kingdom of God to the US is to misapply. Until the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our God and of His Christ they have no relationship.Graftedbranch
Brother GB wrote:We are told by Peter that the government "bears the sword" and that by God's ordination.As Christians we do not fight for the Kingdom. The Lord Jesus said, "If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My diciples take up arms."Good point, that is very clear according to Scripture. Never heard it put in that way, in terms of the government bears the sword vs our kingdom perspective.God BlessIn ChristJeff
I do not believe that a Christian is committing murder by killing the enemy through order of the governmentThis is a common belief, but not supported by Christ's teaching. We read, not just once, but many times how we are to respond to our enemy. Scripture also tells how we are to fight: with the Armor of God (Eph. 6) We are in a war and are not called to be passive bistanders, but fighters for the kingdom of GOD. That is a spiritual, not political kingdom. The early Christians did not take up arms and fight for Rome. They were severely persecuted as a result. When Constantine "christianized" Rome, the Christians also took up arms (it was regarded as one's godly duty) Rome fell apart not long after that, and the church had degenerated to the level of the pagans. I guess we fight for the kingdom we believe in, in which we have placed our trust. It is very costly to "stand firm" in our loyalty to God. Are we willing to pay the price, even if it cost us our life? Diane
The early Christians did not take up arms and fight for Rome. They were severely persecuted as a result. When Constantine "christianized" The early Christians were not passifist. Even in the gospels, when they came to arrest the Lord, Peter took his "SWORD" and cut off the centurians ear. The Lord restored the man's ear. But the fact is Peter carried a sword.If a man breaks into my house and threatens my wife and family, as a believer do I defend my wife and family? Or do I passivly stand aside and let him have his way?If a Hitler rises up to devour the nations, do we sit by and do nothing? Or do was take up arms to defend our liberties and freedom?We have to walk with the Lord on this. The Nations bear the Sword.But we do not fight for the kingdom of God with weapons of the flesh.But if called to the armed forces, we fight for our nation, our families, and even for the liberation of others who are held under an iron fist.The Lord Himself used the nations to juged Isreal and then used the other nations to judge them. The Old Testament is where we have the Law, "Thou shalt not commit murder", but the Old Testament is also the place where Isreal was called to fight on not more than one occasion.Is their a place for concientious objectors? Perhaps. But it is not a rule. We must follow the flow of the Lord's Life within us.Graftedbranch
Romans 13:1-71 Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God.2 So then he who resists the authority opposes God's ordination, and those who oppose will recieve the judgement to themselves.3 For the rulers are not a terror to good work, but to the evil. Do you want to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him;4 For he is a servant of God to you for good, But if you do what is evil, fear; he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to him who practices evil.5 Therefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.6 For because of these things you also pay taxes; for they are God's officers, attending constantly to this very thing.7 Render to all the things due: tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom is due, fear to whom fear is due, honor to whom honor is due."These verses spell out our relationship to the state and it's function. It bears the Sword and that by God's ordination. The State bears the sword to maintain order and to deal with evil. And that would include terrorist, etc.If we work for the State and are called to bear the sword, it is by God's ordination. God has appointed the sword for the state and if we take it as a representative of the state we are according to God's ordination. But if we take the sword as the church for the Kingdom of God, we are out of line. His Kingdom is not of this world.Graftedbranch
Hi GuysI am a spiritual pacifist. That means I consider myself to be a priest in a royal priesthood and therefore I would never dream of blowing anyones brains out. Now, secular pacifists might be the most ridiculous people on the planet. Nations must defend themselves, WW11 being a good example, WW1 being a very bad one. I think the problem lies in how we identify ourselves. I hear the personal pronoun used a lot in the replies that "we, have to defend ourselves as a country. Who is "we?" By happenstance I am a citezen of this country, by birth I am a citizen of a country yet to come. Imgaine the nonsensical notion that one born-ahain Christian in Germany would blow the brains out of a Born-again brother from America. Govenrnment was established by God to hold back the forces of chaos, this does not mean that it is a godly institution just because he established it. God makes the rain to fall on the briar and the thistles, therefore making these weeds grow, but they are weeds. God can make one vessel for honor, another for dishonor, who is the the clay to speak against the potter?There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that that early Christians took up arms and fought to the death to try and save Israel from the Roman destruction of 67-70ad. Now, if ever there would have been justifiable participation, would not that be it? Can you imigaine the reaction if America was invaded and Christians proclaimed that they would not fight for their country, the hatred would be extreme. Poor Jerrimiah had a task just like this. There will come a time soon that "all nations," of the world will come against Jerusalem, and since all means all, that includes America. Will Christians who believe in taking up arms boldly go of and fight against Israel? The common questions about Nazi-ism comes up all the time. The bottom line is that countries have been fighting each other since and before Jesus and they will all the way up to the end. The secular world will fight to protect themsleves, have no doubt about that, but what has that to do with Christianity? Are you reaaly an American first and a Christian second, can you really serve two masters? Do you have any New Testement scriptures to support the killing of your enemies. To quote the OT is not acceptable unless you believe that todays kings and presidents who go to war have direct instructions from God, as did the Israelites. I have yet to hear any leader claim that God spoke to them directly and gave them precise instructions. Men fight and die for power and money , have alway and will always right up to the time Jesus comes back, let us not be part of the world system but Gods. As for Peter using the sword, what did that Peter do when Jesus told him to put down the sword? He fled in fear and distress, oh yes Peter was more than willing to fight and die for a conquering hero, but not for a suffering servant. Hundreds of thousands, millions of men have died down through the centuries for King and country, a very small number of men and woman have died to themselves and embraced suffering and persecution. God's Kingdom is not of this world, but it is amongst us. Our weapons of warfare are love and peace, you see, we as the light of the world, break the chain of darkness, of violence, of hatred, because this is exactly what Jesus did. He did not call down fire on the greatest criminals of all time, those who killed the Son of God(you and me) he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." This is our role as light bearers. Many will be called to this, but few will find that narrow path..........Frank
Excellent responce Appolus! I Agree that our war is not against Flesh and Blood. General Booth got it write when he started his wars, in the boldness of a lion, with "Fire & Blood". Now that is Faith. Not ignorance nor StupidityMay Grace and Peace Be with You
Can someone honestly explain to me how killing your enemy is loving your enemy. If someone can elaborate on this, please do.
This discussion is locked.