Rapture???

Interesting study:A Jewish WeddingAs Christ is called the bridegroom and the church is called the bride, Christ was/is a Jew. Special attn. to the (time line and sequence of events) return of the groom and seven days for consummation of the wedding. Note this study will also open eyes to the pre/post/mid trib question. Alot can be learned if we would study Jewish culture/tradition/feasts and ceremonies

I agree with what Greg said. It seems to me that it is easy to see a tone in the New Testament that speaks of a person being ready. It seems to me they expected Jesus to return in their lifetime and we should expect him the same way.Here is someone else's opinion and statement:...............................................Rapture MythsTom's Perspectivesby Thomas Ice Hardly a week goes by that I don’t receive material opposing the pre-trib rapture which is filled with all kinds of error, both Scriptural and historical. For example, I ran across an article entitled "Origin of the Secret Rapture Theory." The first sentence said, "It may surprise and even shock you that neither the word ‘rapture’ nor the teaching of a secret rapture is not mentioned in ANY Christian literature prior to 1830—including the Bible!" I am hardly surprised or shocked that anyone could pack so much error into a single sentence, but there we have for all to see. This month I want to deal with some of the popular myths about the pre-trib rapture teaching that Dr. LaHaye and I very much believe is taught in the New Testament Scriptures.The Term "Rapture"First of all, the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazô means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio "to seize, snatch, tear away." It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as "rapture."In Europe, during the Middle Ages and Reformation periods, the theologians were from various countries and therefore spoke different native tongues. However, the single language of the church, both Catholic and Protestant was Latin. In fact, many of the first books written and published in the American Colonies during the seventeenth century were in Latin. For example, Cotton Mather’s famous history of the American Colonies during the seventeenth century was written in Latin and called Magnalia Christi Americana, or The Great Works of Christ in America. Because it was done in Latin it could be read throughout Europe by the educated class. Thus, it should not be surprising to anyone that many new words came into the English language from a Latin source, especially in the realm of theology. Rapture is just such a word.While it is technically true that the word rapture does not appear in the English Bible, it does, nevertheless, appear in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. Certainly the notion of a rapture appears many times in the Bible. Translators of the Bible into English could have been justified had they translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with the English word "rapture." They also could have translated it by the word snatch. We could just as easily call the rapture "the great snatch."I have in my personal library at least 50 commentaries on 1 Thessalonians. Virtually all of them use the word "rapture" to describe the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. They do not appear interested in using it in a derogatory way nor do any of them go on an excursus about how this word does not appear in English translations. Most of these commentators do not hold to a pre-trib rapture view. They merely use the word because they know that it is one of the many Latin words that have made it into the English theological vernacular. Sorry that some have not yet heard.The rapture does occur in the Bible, especially if you read the Latin Vulgate. However, there is no doubt that the Greek word harpazô in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, usually translated into English "caught up," conveys the rapture concept."Rapture" UsageOur anti-rapture diatribe noted earlier said, "the word ‘rapture’ nor the teaching of a secret rapture is not mentioned in ANY Christian literature prior to 1830." Oh really! It is not hard to find out when English words were first introduced into the language. One needs only to check The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and it will cite examples of the history of the usage of the word. The oldest word in the "rapture" family is "rapt." OED cites examples of rapt occurring in 1400 in English literature. The earliest instances of "rapture" in secular English literature are cited as 1605, 1607, and 1608. OED provides seven nuances of the word Rapture. The fourth entry is the biblical one defined as "The act of conveying a person from one place to another esp. to heaven; the fact of being so conveyed." Two examples of this use are cited from the seventeenth century. The first by a writer named Ward in 1647 and the other by J. Edwards (not the American Jonathan) in 1693. It does not take long to realize that these examples are well before 1830.Joseph Mede (1586-1638), considered in his day, a brilliant English exegete wrote a commentary on Revelation in 1627 called Clavis Apocalyptica (Key of the Revelation). In it he said, "Therefore, it is not needful that the Resurrection of those which slept in Christ, and the Rapture of those which shall be left alive together with them in the air . . ." While Mede was a premillennialist, he did not hold to a pre-trib rapture. Nor did the commentator and theologian John Gill (1697-1771) who wrote around 1745 the following in his commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:17: ". . . and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be together with them; . . ."To admit that the word rapture was used in the English language at least a couple of hundred years before J. N. Darby came along does not in the least mean that one believes in pretribulationism. The Greek word harpazô is used fourteen times in the New Testament. In addition to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is used at least three more times of one being raptured to heaven (2 Cor. 12:2, 4; Rev. 12:5). So there is no need to get upset over the use of the Latin based, English word "rapture." It is a biblical word.The "Secret" Rapture MythIncluded in the above tirade is an equation of the so-called "secret" rapture with pretribulationism. Sorry, but this is another mistake, another myth. In all my reading of pretribulationism and discussion with pretribulationists, I have never, that I can recall, heard a pre-trib rapturist use the nomenclature of "secret" rapture to describe our view. I have only heard the phrase "secret" rapture as a pejorative term used exclusively by anti-pretribulationists. Why? Apparently they enjoy fighting with a straw man.Anti-pretribulationist, Ken Gentry declares, "On the very surface it is remarkable that one of the noisiest verses in Scripture is said to picture the secret rapture." The truth of the matter is that Gentry wrongly assumes that pretribulationists characterize their view of the rapture as "secret." We do not! However, there are anti-pre-trib rapture advocates, like Dave MacPherson who have taught this myth. As a result, unwitting critics like Gentry have absorbed this myth into their rhetoric without doing their homework.Very likely it was Dave MacPherson who has spread this myth that equates pretribulationism with a secret rapture. "In 1880 William Reid, in his book on Brethrenism," declares MacPherson, "stated that ‘Edward Irving contributed the notion of . . . the secret rapture of the saints.’" MacPherson later concludes, "The pretrib rapture eventually became known as the ‘secret rapture.’ This label was based on the presupposition that only certain persons would have privileged visibility or knowledge during the occurrence of this catching up." MacPherson does not actually reference anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture when he makes these statements. It is through slight of hand that he slips such an assumption into his plot of fictional myths about the origins of pretribulationism.In fact, Brethren researcher R. A. Huebner refutes MacPherson’s misinformation about the pre-trib rapture and its supposed association with a secret rapture teaching. Huebner notes that supposed relation of pretribulationism and a secret rapture are built upon the following false historical assumptions: First, the "erroneous notions are the result of the myth that the Irvingites held a pretribulation rapture and also results from trying to link J. N. D. with this falsified Irvingism." Second, when speaking of events transpiring in the 1830s, Huebner says, "the Secret Rapture as used at that point in time did not refer to the pretribulation rapture." Third, "it seems that up to this point in time [the 1830s, T. D. I.], ‘Secret Rapture’ referred to a rapture at the appearing [the second coming, T. D. I.]." Fourth, "I am not aware if JND ever thought that the rapture would be ‘secret.’"It was the Irvingites, and not the Brethren, who believed in the secret rapture. Since the secret rapture and pretribulationism are not the same, this is where much of the confusion resides. The Irvingite view of the secret rapture was a belief that a few enlightened ones would be taken right before the second coming at the end of the tribulation. This is what Irvingite, Margaret Macdonald’s revelation is about. It is impossible to find a pre-trib rapture of any kind in her vision.ConclusionI am sure that this call to anti-pre-trib rapture advocates will not result in much of a reduction of their zealous proclamation of mythological falsehoods about our blessed hope. It seems that too many are blinded by their zeal to oppose the biblical teachings of the any-moment hope of the rapture for them to take time to get their information straight. No wonder Columba Graham Flegg, in his scholarly work on the Irvingites spoke specifically of Dave MacPherson’s work as "less scholarly." Flegg said, the "conclusions reached in this work and the rationale behind them are hardly convincing." Now why is an expert on the Irvingites not impressed with MacPherson’s work? Because Flegg has a thorough knowledge about the times in which MacPherson writes and realizes that he is spinning out myths. Maranatha!

{Quote}I believe the rapture is a great deception in the church to keep christians from getting too serious in their walk with the Lord.This may be the reason that there will be such a great falling away.Too many christians caught with no oil in their lamps..................................................Sister Rebecca,There are many other people who use this forum that believe similar to the way you do about a rapture. There are many who believe the opposite too. You should realize though that the people who believe the opposite to what you believe, believe that to take your position is a great deception in the church. They think of people not wanting to walk close to Jesus and be ready this moment {twinkling of an eye} as people who aren't getting to serious in their walk with the Lord and that their not being prepared for an instant rapture is because there is a great falling away today. Their position is that if you are not prepared with oil in your lamp this instant, you are not prepared for the rapture when it comes. So, the very same things you mentioned in the quote are the same words the opposite position on the rapture would speak.In Christ,GaryE

How can you say there is no "rapture?" I understand some arguing the 'when' but how can you argue the "if"? For those that don't like the word "rapture" I hope they don't use the word "Trinity." I wouldn't want anyone to by hypocrital and say that if a word isn't in the Bible it is false. I'm sure there are several theological words that are used that are not in the Bible but are supported by the Bible. You surely believe in the incarnation, right? That word is not in the Bible. Here are some thoughts...How can Jesus come with his saints untill after He has come for His saints? Or how can those that are alive be caught up if they all are going to be killed?

Oh ok.. so you are questioning the 'when' of the rapture and not the 'if?' I thought you were questioning if there is a rapture.

hi, my take mon the rapture is so weird that i will not tell anyone who does not really know me well. i will share that the onlyway to clear up the problem of the foolish virgins is to be ready today. i never advise anyone to study the future because today is the day of salvation. noone is guaranteed a tomorrow. Jesus said to take no thought of tomorrow.Jesus did not say He was or that He will be, He said before abraham was I am. faith is now....jimp

Dear Rebecca,Some people believe that the last trump is described in Rev. 4:1.Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.This is the very next verse after the warnings and exhortations to the Seven Churches. In all the verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 you see what would be the key verses to the rapture. There is an exhortation to the way a believer should be living his or her life before and after the verses that speak of what many call the rapture. Verses 4:16+17 would be the key verses. Some people separate the forth chapter from the fifth chapter and use the fifth as speaking about his second coming at the end of the tribulation. Other people believe the forth and fifth chapters are both speaking of the rapture. It is because of the words day of the Lord in the beginning of chapter 5 that some don't use this with chapter 4 but instead believe that chapter 5 is speaking of the end of tribulation when the Lord comes with his saints. 1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor; 1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit. 1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; 1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; 1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. 1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore. 1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us. 1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss. 1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. 1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Interesting topic, also a very controversial one.Here's my take on the rapture:The term is used to describe an event, spoken of in several places in the Bible, in which Christ returns to "snatch up" His church from the world. I don't see the controversy as being whether or not there be such an event, but rather, in the timing of the event.One instance of the event being discussed is found in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 -- "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus shall we always be with the Lord."From these two verses, we see that five things occur at the rapture:1) Christ appears in the air.2) There are loud voices (Shouts or Cries).3) There is a trumpet.4) The dead in Christ rise first.5) Then, the Christians who are still alive are caught up.Now the big question is: "WHEN???" When does this event of Christ "snatching up" His people occur?In a nutshell, there are three prevailing opinions pertaining to the timing of the Rapture: The Pre-Tribbers, such as the authors of the "Left Behind" books, say that the rapture will occur before another event occurs, known as the Great Tribulation, which they believe is a seven year period of unprecedented evil and judgement unleashed on the earth by Satan and God. They believe that Jesus will bail all the Christians out of here before all hell breaks loose. The Mid-Tribbers, on the other hand, believe that Christians will have to endure the first three and a-half years of the Great Tribulation, and then they will be bailed out. This was a popular view back in the 1980s, but it seems to have died out of late.Finally, the last camp are the Post-Tribbers, which believe that the rapture will not occur until after the time of great tribulation has ran its course. In my opinion, if you read the Scriptures dealing with these events and take them literally, they clearly show that Christ will not return to gather His people until after the time of great tribulation.In Matthew's gospel, chapter 24 and verse 36, Jesus says:"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my Father only."While this verse does reveal that no one knows the actual day or hour that Christ shall return, that decision is the Father's only, the Scripture clearly reveals where the rapture fits into the sequence of prophetic events.Jesus put all of these events into perfect perspective in Matthew chapter 24:"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN; AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31).Now, compare what is stated in these verses with what I wrote earlier from 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. Again, we see the same five events transpiring:1) In Matt. 24:30 we see the Son of Man (Jesus) appearing in the sky.2) Again, we have a shout or cry, with the tribes of the earth mourning.3) In verse 31, we see the great trumpet again.4) In both passages, angels are mentioned at the gathering of the elect from the four winds: that is the east, west, north, and south. I believe that these are those alive on the earth at the time of His return.5) The angels also gather the Christians from one end of the sky to the other. I believe these are the dead in Christ.I do not believe it is a stretch at all to say that both of these passages (Matt. 24: 29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17) are describing the same event. That being the case, Matthew 24:29 clearly answers the question regarding the timing of this event: "Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..."However, it may be said that one passage of Scripture is not enough to form a basis for a belief, so let's look at a passage from 1 Corinthians:"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP; FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED" (1 Cor. 15:51-52).Again, it is rather obvious that the same event is being described: there is a trumpet sounding and the dead being raised and the living being changed--THE RAPTURE!We are told here that this event will take place at THE SOUND OF THE LAST TRUMPET. Do we know when the last trumpet will sound? Again, the Bible is clear: the seven trumpets are mentioned in Revelation 8:1-11 and 15-18, where there are seven angels sounding seven trumpets, each bringing forth a different judgement upon the earth.Now, look at what Rev. 10:7 says:"But in the days of the VOICE OF THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." Keep in mind, the passage in 1 Cor. where Paul stated:"BEHOLD, I SHOW YOU A MYSTERY..."This passage in Rev. also speaks of a MYSTERY--the mystery of God is the gathering of His people--THE RAPTURE!Then in Rev. 11:15-18:"AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED (the trumpet); and THERE WERE GREAT VOICES IN HEAVEN (shouts), saying, 'The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.'And the twenty-four elders, who sat before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, 'We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, who is, who was, and who is to come, because You have taken unto You Your great power, and have reigned. And the nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, AND THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE REWARDS UNTO YOUR SERVANTS, the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.'"This is the time of the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6:"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them; AND I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE THAT WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.But the rest of the dead (non-Christians) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection; on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."This is the first resurrection, when believers in Christ, at the trumpet of God, shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Matthew 24 clearly tell us this event will not take place until AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.Also, I would add, there are only two resurrections, not three. According to the Pre-Tribbers, there has to be at least three resurrections in order to get those who are saved during the tribulation resurrected. But Jesus said there would only be two resurrections: A resurrection of the just (the first resurrection), and the resurrection of the unjust (the second resurrection after the thousand year reign of Christ):"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hears His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).This means, there could not have been a resurrection seven years earlier before the Tribulation, as the Pre-Tribbers say. Or else, the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20:4-6 is the second resurrection, and the resurrection of the unjust (non-Christians), one thousand years later, is the third. It doesn't work; it doesn't jive with how Jesus said it would be.Well, that's my take on it. I'm open to any further revelation in this area that anyone might give.God bless...--Billy Evans