A little while ago, my wife and I visited a "Fundamental Independent Baptist" church that held a few viewpoints differently that we do. Among them was the idea that any music other than hymns is evil- this was to include today's contemporary praise music.Now, this is something that I just don't understand. Is there anyone who can explain this thought? Is there basis for it, or is it simply baseless?Grace and Peace...
There have been discussions about this, here, previously. Have you searched, yet?I think many of us who were brought up with hymns, were tuned into a depth of spiritual usefulness from the words and tunes of the best hymns, which we find lacking, quite often, from some contemporary praise music. (The words are often about what I'm going to do for God; often there is a very repetitive (boring) tune, which depends heavily on the support of musical instruments; the content is fequently limited to one central concept, lightly embellished, which, once embraced, [the song] has more or less fulfilled its usefulness.)As you probably see, I post a lot of hymns in the praise thread. Partly, that's because I've had trouble finding the other kind of music in the public domain and posted on the web, but, also, the 'beauty' of hymns, apart from the words, are that they travel well - which you might appreciate. They are sung to a steady rhythm, with at most, only one dropped beat at the beginning of a line, in the occasional tune. There is, therefore, no missing instrumental section. The whole thing is carried on a much stronger tune, usually, which can be sung without accompaniment.Often these tunes were written for 4 part singing, which means if anyone is even slightly musical, as long as the melody (the main tune) is correctly pitched, everyone else who is a bass, tenor or alto, can sing a part - so it is real original praise music to the Lord - and not a guitar, keyboard, drum kit or amplifier in sight.It is my personal view that the church needs to know its hymns first, for times of difficulty and persecution, and times of being out in the field away from local church comforts. If not, as with those who don't take in scripture properly when they read it, the moment there is a physical dearth of spiritual food, one is more vulnerable to attack (and failure).Fully I accept that there are some excellent 'non-hymns' but these are the ones which have the qualities of a hymn which I've mentioned - meaningful content, continuous singing to a regular rhythm with spaces for dropped beats or instrumental sections kept extremely short, and, most importantly, a proper spiritual tune which goes to more than 3 chords on a guitar. The tests of a good tune are that it can be sung in parts, or, the melody is very strong (despite, perhaps, not lending itself to harmonies) and pitched right in the middle of everyone's range. These two types of tune will be amenable to come back on the wings of the Spirit in times of need, more than all the others..... just my two pen'rth....
I've been to a number of different types of churches, particularly when I was younger. Some of them wouldn't allow electric guitars and drums for example. I didn't realize until now that really what they wanted was a focus on worship, not some type of emotional experience.Most of the hymns were very solid, regardless of which particular denomination you were a part of. Frankly much of the "contemporary" Christian music lacks depth, with some notable exceptions such as Keith Green.In our fellowship most of the singing is without music, simply to not turn worship into another form of entertainment. There's no scriptural admonition against this but our focus is on Jesus not on entertainment.
Paul Ravenhill said "Hymns are like the old battle ax, one blow does it all. Chorus is like a dagger in the right place it will do the job"Martin Luther - After Luther left some of the churches he was told they were starting to get cold again, Luther reply was to tell every church to sing hymns and so the churches did so and the result was revival."Like Ravenhill said hymns and chorus have their place in worship.
I'm glad that you said "most" hymns. I don't want to pick a fight, but rather I want to talk about both hymns and contemporary music.I myslef am a fan of Relient K. They sing about a lot of stuff, not just praise/worship music, which in itself is a turnoff for some people. I personally don't think it should be- we talk about other things, why not sing about them?Anyway, they have a song called "For the moments I feel faint". It's guitars and voices. "Never underestimate my Jesus," is the thread of the chorus. It's a praise song, if I've ever heard one. And if you have a guitar and a voice, you can sing it.Now, you're right in saying that some contemporary music is lacking in depth, but so are some hymns. Actually, this same church that I mentioned earlier- when we attended, we sang a song that says something to the effect of "I'm gonna have a mansion in heaven, so I want to serve you for it." Now, that sounds pretty well like humanism, if you ask me.My point isn't to say that one is better than another. Our church doesn't sing anything but hymns, aside from the occasional performance for the congregation. But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary?Grace and Peace...
But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary? I wouldn't and haven't blacklisted contemporary Christian music as a genre. We sing some contemporary songs but I prefer the hymns, although some of the contemporary ones are what I call car-tunes, which I often sing on the commute to work. We simply need a discerning spirit on this as well as all things.Keith Green was an aberration because he never charged for his concerts and he trusted Jesus for the finances. Unfortunately now, it's limited to those with means to go. Personally I find "Christian marketing" offensive but unfortunately it's not limited to contemporary Christian music.
It is said that man makes God in his own image. That applies to God's "taste" of music. What people like is what they believe God likes. And so they believe that THEIR music is an acceptable offering to God. There was a time when God told his people that he didn't like their music: " I despise your religious feasts; Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps." Amos 5:23It would do us well to think about why God would say that. It seems like God's criteria is not the same as man's. Diane
I’ve been involved in music for years. Not all of it has been in the religious services. It seems very odd that Christians would talk about two kinds of music: hymns and choruses. That, to me is like saying that there are only two kinds of food: green apples and yellow apples. It is a rather narrow perception of a far bigger scope. So, it seems odd that people squabble over green and yellow apples when there is so much variety in food. Mind, you, you can have rotten green apples and rotten yellow apples, or flawed apples. Because music is a product of human creativity, and limited by their inadequacies, it will always have some shortcomings. People usually compare the music they are critiquing with their own frame of reference. The smaller it is, the less they will be able to judge wisely. Has anybody listened to Handel’s Halleluiah Chorus lately? Now there is one incredible CHORUS! As you see, somehow over time, the term “chorus” has been given a new definition (rather hazy, at best) by the church. That makes the disagreements even more crazy. Another comment: The word, “contemporary’ is a rather relative term – it means nothing, really. What was “contemporary’ yesterday, is “traditional” today (another rather subjective term). And what is contemporary among classical musicians is entirely different than contemporary music in the church. So you see, when people know little about music they make such ludicrous comments as these dear fundies (May God bless them)..... a non-hymn........... mmmmm that could be just about anything. Diane
{Quote}But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary?But isn't the same thing true the other way around? Why are there so many churches that only have contemporary muscic in them?In Christ,GaryE
Too true, Gary. And I wonder if it's not a matter of cultural/age group opinion being pushed as being the only "true" praise.Grace and peace...
Often times, the younger generation (like me- 20), if not raised in a conservative church (like me), wasn't raised with hymns, and doesn't "click" with them. I don't know how to explain it. It took me a long time before I could appreciate many hymns at all. This might be why many of the younger generation of churches preffers more modern style of praise.On the same hand, I don't think many of the elder generation really "clicks" with the modern style of praise, and so preffer hymns.So, should it be a question of personal preference alone as to style? Every song must be tested- like said, there's rotten of both color. Also, what do you mean about there being more than just two kinds of apples Diane?Grace and peace...
Tozer said If you look a hymns in the past 100 years and under -you see a trend of the hymns having "I" in them. More self focused and not God. I never will squabble about what others sing and will not now. I like what Paul Ravenhills WIFE said "Whatever CHANNEL gets you into the presence of God use that channel" That means chorus or hymns or singing the Psalms.Find YOUR channel and stay with it and forget the squabble. :-)
Whatever CHANNEL gets you into the presence of God use that channel" That means chorus or hymns or singing the Psalms. I have a great deal of trouble with this statement. I do not think that music is a means to reach God, but an expression of what is going on inside someone. This statement borders towards idolatry, I'm afraid. ...what do you mean about there being more than just two kinds of apples I mean to say, that we speak like hymns and choruses are the only two kinds of music that exist. Some others also believe that there are only two kinds of music: country and western. (just being facetious)I believe that to the extent that Christians are able, it is good to broaden their scope. That will help them when they "critique" church music. By the way, Groh_frog I like the way you express the struggle relating to music that is not in one's sphere of experience. That is a humble admission - better than saying "the OTHER kind is all from the devil, or God doesn't use it anymore." Diane
Here's a great websight with alot of old hymns with music: www.cyberhymnal.org It even has the old hymn from Azusa Street, "The Comforter Has Come." I also like the hymn,"Coming Up The Road."
Hey Roadsign, I don't want to get into this but I got to ask whats YOUR "means" of touching or reaching God?
I have a great deal of trouble with this statement. I do not think that music is a means to reach God, but an expression of what is going on inside someone. This statement borders towards idolatry, I'm afraid.I understand your concern for the statement and although I can't know the context of the statement that this quote from Mrs. Ravenhill was taken from, I think I can hazard a guess. Sometimes for me, when in the prayer closet, I fight with a wandering mind or just a lack of the spirit of prayer, and sometimes singing a hymn or two will help to get me back in the right place, so to speak. I'm guessing that may be the meaning behind the "channel" but I could be wrong. Perhaps Brent could comfirm that.In Christ,Ron
Ok, Let me make this concrete. Ron has his channel. For me I listen to worship music before prayer or reading etc. = my channel. It doesnt have to be just chorus or just hymns. I love to sense God before anything. My devotions is not a 3 step process or formula.(A channel is beyond my words its the door that allows me to see HIS face =less concrete) I can go much further than this but let me know if more needs said for a clear answer??
I haven't read all the quotes, but here is my take. I have a friend whose testimony lead me to Christ, who is IF Baptist. This is what I was told by Kent Hovind, the Creation Evangelist who at one time pastored an IFB church. He feels that many in the IFB movement have become like the Amish, and begun to shun people so much that they have cut themselves off, in some cases, to an extreme that is un-Biblical. He also commented that they have stricter tolerances, and often times with this you get a better product.BTW, I have read a quote by Wesley that says that instruments are wonderful things, but they have no place in the church. IFB's are not the only ones who have been primitive in worship.The IFB has had some great preachers in the past, namely John R. Rice. Some of the IFB preachers very obviously oppose Rice's position on ecuminism (I use this word carefully). Rice went on campaigns with anyone that trusted Christ and believed the Bible, while the average IFB church will not allow their termites to fellowship with the termites from the church down the street (paraphrase of Curtis Hudson, IFB minister).I'm not big on the new stuff, hymn-wise, but I don't think it is a doctrine worth dividing over. If someone does, then let him do it for the Lord, God is his judge. But I will stand with Paul on this one:Phil 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
Here are some more great hymns: These are hymns written by Martin Luther: www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/l/u/luther_m.htm Written by Charles Wesley: www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/e/s/wesley_c.htm
Diane,I often sing that bit of the Hallelujah chorus which says 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ' (from memory... hope I'm quoting correctly from Revelation there).I understand what you mean about music having the potential to be an idol, but I don't think that's what was meant. For myself, I find the Lord very quick and willing to 'give' me a line of a tune (of Christian song, hymn, psalm) which ministers immensely to me in the Spirit. Sometimes this is before and sometimes after or nothing to do with spending time with Him consciously. I keep myself open to hear from Him in this way, and He - knowing me and the love He has given me of music which glorifies Him - comes to me in fellowship in this way. I could not function without it, even though I have gone for months without singing at all.... those were hard times, when there was no spiritual song of any kind coming through. At other times, He has used the music He brings to me to show my true relationship with Him, regardless of how I'm feeling or what has happened 'in the natural'; and sometimes, it has been a sign that I've moved out of the influence of an opposing spirit - that the song just bursts forth, like a tap has been turned on.
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