I have a question for all of you: how do you deal with a lying spirit? Is it possible for someone with a lying spirit to actually 'forget' something they have said? I would appreciate any imput from anyone who has insight into this problem, or who has had experience with it.Blessings,ginnyrose
Is it possible for someone with a lying spirit to actually 'forget' something they have said? I'm not sure what you mean by 'a lying spirit'. How have you reached this description of the problem? Is this a child or an adult? Do you see the solution as a matter of deliverance, or, are there other issues which have forced the person to begin lying in the first place (for which there could be reasons).I've been lied to by important people in my life (at the time) continuously, such that the Lord had to minister to me with a combination of deliverance and reassurance that I could never be lied to again.... that I would always be able to discern lying in the future, which I believe I can, now.Anyone with any unclean spirit, would need to want to be delivered from it, before prayer for deliverance is practicable.EDIT Depending on the reason for the lying, it is eminently possible a person would lose track of things they have said (or promised). If the person's personality has been split up, as a result of abuse, then this is not just likely - it's inevitable. In this case, I would not be majoring on their need to stop lying, but on their need for healing, because that's the root of the problem.... could say much more about this, and recommend reading, if that's helpful.
I've been lied to by important people in my life (at the time) continuously, such that the Lord had to minister to me with a combination of deliverance and reassurance that I could never be lied to again.... that I would always be able to discern lying in the future, which I believe I can, now.That seems to be a very dangerous assumption sister and with all due respect I would be lying if I was to let this pass on by without mention. Could this not in itself be a lie whispered in your ear by the adversary? What of the lies we tell ourselves even without intention? There is an awful lot of ramifications that could come from this, one being that deadly 'gift of suspicion' mentioned elsewhere in these parts.Discernment is one thing, but do we not yet know ourselves? Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I have a question for all of you: how do you deal with a lying spirit? Is it possible for someone with a lying spirit to actually 'forget' something they have said? I would appreciate any imput from anyone who has insight into this problem, or who has had experience with it.1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1Ki 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? 2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. 2Ch 18:23 Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? 2Ch 18:24 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Reference wise the best possibilities seem to be towards "prophets" and frankly it may be more endemic now than ever. Despite the constant warnings in scripture and even the requirement of spiritual honesty... I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. Jer 23:21 Have had more than I care to know of this in former days...Could you give an example of what you mean by this? I hate to assume but there is something of this that recalls a certain school of thought..."The spirit of_____" With each having a specific 'department', know we have touched on this before and think it is an important area to look at. Will see if I can dig it up.
Here is something along the lines I mentioned, you may prefer to jump into the middle there to get the jist of it. Philologo's post in the middle drawing out the concerns quite well, look for "Comment 1. Comment 2"What is "sin"?
So you want more details so you will know how to answer......The woman is an adult, very religious. When you listen to her talk she is very smooth and 'loving'. When she expounds on scripture she mixes new age philosophy with her teaching: 'God NEVER uses confrontation to bring people to Himself'is the most recent one. Earlier she said feelings are more important then truth; she teaches a touchy/feely message; she knows very little about God yet claims to be a strong Christian. Now this is the philosophical level. On the practical level there have been outright lies for which she denies of having ever said. I simply do not know how to handle it. Frankly, I am scared of her because of her charms...she can so easily rope you in and get you on her bandwagon. On the other hand Jesus died for me and to HIM I owe my salvation and allegience regardless of the circumstances.Dorcas, you mentioned abuse as a contributing factor....this may be true. She claims to have been abused, but how can I know with her tract record of lying? Her mother says she is a rebellious child...Who knows? Yes, she does function like two different persons. One minute it seems she is talking in the power of the Holy Spirit and the next a foreign spirit which is chilling. Now I suppose I hear people think 'I do not want to get involved in personal disputes', and I do not blame you. But the question remains: how do you deal with lying? ginnyrose
Extremely interesting thread you sent me to...one that will make one go back and reread several times. Thanks for the link. Now to my question: you are suggesting the problem to be demonic? and if so, the battle is barely heating up....this will require more and more time spent alone with God...I enjoy the time spent with God but to confront the demonic...LORD have mercy on me!!!ginnyrose
GinnyroseThank-you for being honest.I know where you are coming from, because there are people in our Church who are fooling a lot of people by the same personality you mentioned.When new people come to Church they surround them and get them to believe the same way they do, which is a false Doctrine.They will lie, or do whatever they have to do to keep control.The Young people are being led down the same road.No growth, just control.I know I'm leaving myself open for rebuke, but I don't try to deal with them.The Spirit filled people in our Church know they aren't for real, but no one says anything, and if someone does say something, which I have in the past, we are rebuked for it.You may ask why am I still there?I don't know why I'm still there, except we have some wonderful people there who love the Lord, and I know there isn't any perfect Churches.I couldn't belong to it if there were.I sincerely ask God for direction concerning what I'm supposed to do, and would welcome your Prayers.I pray that God will show you what to do if anything, and that He will give you His Peace and Rest.I know how it grieves the Spirit of God in you.The lying, but like someone else posted, if they don't want deliverance, then until God shows them,and the Spirit of God draws them, they will continue lying and deceiving.We are in the last days, so I personally believe we will see more of this as time goes on.God Bless youNellie
ginnyrose asks:I have a question for all of you: how do you deal with a lying spirit? Is it possible for someone with a lying spirit to actually 'forget' something they have said? At the risk of this sounding too simplistic... if God gives discernment of its presence He will show you what to do about it. Diagnosis is not the same as discernment.
ginnyrose, There is only one way to handle this matter and that is to tell this woman how she is sinning against God and needs to repent and if she doesn't repent then don't have any fellowship with her. If she decides to have fellowship with you and not talk about new age philosophy than great but if she doesn't than you'll just have to keep correcting her till she gives up and leaves you alone.Every time she brings it up though I would correct her and if she gets argumentative than have nothing to do with her. You might have to just keep correcting her until she leaves you alone.If your not a very confrontational person than the devil knows our weakness and that may be why this is happening to you.When the devil turns up the heat you have to just throw it right back.Sometimes it will really cost you all depending on who your dealing with.I had a problem with a directors wife once. If she is doing this knowing it upsets you than she is probably a very strongwilled and rebellious woman.You may just see a less sweeter side of her that you've never seen before before this is all over but hold your ground.
The woman is an adult, very religious. When you listen to her talk she is very smooth and 'loving'. When she expounds on scripture she mixes new age philosophy with her teaching: 'God NEVER uses confrontation to bring people to Himself'is the most recent one. Earlier she said feelings are more important then truth; she teaches a touchy/feely message; she knows very little about God yet claims to be a strong Christian. Now this is the philosophical level. On the practical level there have been outright lies for which she denies of having ever said. This came readily to mind;Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers, Act 16:20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, Act 16:21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.A bit of commentary on that;Act 16:17 - The same followed Paul ... - Why she did this, or under what presence, the sacred writer has not informed us. It may have been:(1)\tThat as she prophesied for gain, she supposed that Paul and Silas would reward her if she publicly proclaimed that they were the servants of God. Or,(2)\tBecause she was conscious that an evil spirit possessed her, and she feared that Paul and Silas would expel that spirit, and by proclaiming them to be the servants of God she hoped to conciliate their favor. Or,(3)\tMore probably it was because she saw evident tokens of their being sent from God, and that their doctrine would prevail; and by proclaiming this she hoped to acquire more authority, and a higher reputation for being herself inspired. Compare Mar_5:7.BarnesI simply do not know how to handle it. Frankly, I am scared of her because of her charms...she can so easily rope you in and get you on her bandwagon. On the other hand Jesus died for me and to HIM I owe my salvation and allegience regardless of the circumstances.Drawing off of the situation with Paul and the striking similarities there wouldn't go beyond measure and use that as ipso facto, only as something to consider.Appreciate your stark honesty here sister, what a conundrum to be dealing with... Much prayer! I will add my own sister. No need to fear her when you have the Lord and I think I understand what you mean by that... Maybe something that I have given to musing on of late, from;Mar 9:17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; Mar 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. AndMar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. I think where a lot of this can get really confusing and maybe even off base is in the word "kind" as in "type" and where the whole range of 'generational spirits', 'the spirit of____", the naming of demonic entities, it's very much 'extra biblical' thinking at best and far off into the imagination at worst. Sorry, this may all be besides the point of any help to this situation and don't mean to be didactic...To draw away from the "kind" as the object of concern and place the emphasis back on to us in the manner of prayer and fasting I think is where the Lord was putting the emphasis. Remember the other similar situation with Paul?Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. I feel like I am attempting to address two different things at the same time here and maybe the proscription is to know anything of how we should react in a given situation is only by the measure of how well we are in constant communion with the Lord and what better way to address everything we are incapable of in matters great and small than by prayer and as need be, fasting. That could open up a whole other can of worms so to speak, but am also recalling what is an 'acceptable' 'fast' to the Lord, our tendencies to automatically assume that means a fasting from eating which, while being true as well, is not the only type of fast (Isa 58:5). One that I am praying for deliverance and practicing or make that failing at, is a fasting from my own opinion... Speaking of ... All this might be quite contrary to your question, apologize for using this as opportunity to address related matters. I guess it just seems wrong to try and give any other particual 'advice' in how to deal with this other than to find the Lords thoughts for yourself by prayer as to what you need to say or not to say in the moment. The sentiment of;Luk 12:11 Now whenever they bring you to the synagogues and rulers and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. Luk 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you must say." Always feel a little weary of trying to force something out of it's particual context, but to borrow the sentiment that we are not to worry (Loads of work still needed there) and by that would also derive that we need not work up presumptions or assumptions even with the present facts before us and be able to discern the Lords voice in any given situation and moment.It may well be to just flat out rebuke her.
Or in a nutshell, just read what Ron wrote... :-( Wish I had seen that first...
At the risk of this sounding too simplistic... if God gives discernment of its presence He will show you what to do about it. Diagnosis is not the same as discernment.philologos,Would you say this is a general rule? It is very helpful, if so.
That seems to be a very dangerous assumption sister and with all due respect I would be lying if I was to let this pass on by without mention. Could this not in itself be a lie whispered in your ear by the adversary? What of the lies we tell ourselves even without intention? There is an awful lot of ramifications that could come from this, one being that deadly 'gift of suspicion' mentioned elsewhere in these parts.Discernment is one thing, but do we not yet know ourselves? Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.That's ok, Mike. I left a whole lot out which would have given context to this revelation, part of which is that I had been prayed for by an elder, (on a Sunday evening) to be cut off from one particular liar - the person I've described as a wolf, in other posts. The Lord had given me two visions in response to that prayer, (the follwing Sunday morning) and I can still see the picture the Lord gave with regard to being protected from such lies in the future, in which the Lamb was between me and everything, no matter which way I turned, and I was in God.The interpretation was so unrelated to the picture (in that the interpretation could have been so many other things) that I have no doubt that it was the Lord speaking to me. EDIT what I mean is, I am sure the interpretation was from God. Please take it up with Him if you have a problem with that. Sorry if this sounds snippy. In the end, one has to go with one's own judgement on what God has or has not ministered to one's heart. In considering how likely it is that God did or did not say this to me, please also consider that I was in huge confusion in those days, and this came (as did any other thing the Spirit brought to me) with such clarity and force, that my battle was not with believing it, but with overcoming the opposition I was also feeling from within. EDIT endAs far as whether I have discerned lying since then, I'd say two things. The first is, I'd been brought up by a liar and by then, I'd also married a liar. This is not to say that I myself had never lied, but that's not the issue God was dealing with. He was dealing with my cultural inability to recognise lies, which had rendered me so vulnerable. Also, the interpretation did not mean I was never to be lied to again..... it was that I would never be taken in again, such that I would make life changing decisions on the basis of a lie - as I had done previously.In the last few years, I've been much quicker to recognise outright lies, but, I am still learning how to address them, depending on what the issue is for the person who lied and why (if at all) it makes any difference to me.'What of the lies we tell ourselves even without intention?'Indeed. I think the whole realm of self-deception is worth mentioning, too, in my case, as it is by self-deception that one conceals from oneself the real issues which separate us from fellowship with God. I began consciously to deal with this aspect of my life, more than 20 years ago, but it was not until I had to give up the facade which had protected me from dealing with the meaning of events in my childhood (the abuses) with God's help, that the process began to bite in a really meaningful way.On the connection between lying and abuse, I lied by not saying. Other abuse survivors have reason to speak out their lies. Perhaps if my circumstances had been different, I too would have lied in concrete words. The comment made by Anna Salter, (who wrote a book for lay (and professional) people to understand how abuse leaves 'footprints' in a life, which affect the survivor's coping strategies It's called 'Transforming Trauma'.) is that in Court cases where she has to give expert testimony on the history of abuse claimed by the defendant (who may be accused of shoplifting, say), she is constantly out-manoeuvred by the Prosecution finding lies in the defendant's history, and using these to discredit her testimony, when Dr Salter's point is that 'lying' is such a common sign that a person has been abused, it should be taken to confirm the girl's testimony - not to discredit it.So ginnyrose, rather than doubting the woman's claim, I'd say the two go hand in hand. That's why I said I'd major on the need for healing. I could say a good deal more but the one coming to the fore for a mention here is, the completeness of the separation between the two personalities points towards abuse early in life (longevity of coping mechanisms) and also, the length of time the abuse went on being longer - years - rather than shorter. This is a whole world of its own, not necessarily appropriate for your thread here.Mike again,'There is an awful lot of ramifications that could come from this, one being that deadly 'gift of suspicion' mentioned elsewhere in these parts.'Please could you elaborate on this? What is the 'gift of suspicion'? I've heard of it, too, but know it is not scriptural. If you mean am I prone to suspect I'm being lied to? I'd say categorically the opposite. And unless the Lord brings me the thought that I've just nearly fallen for a lie, I am really slow to consider it as a possibility.... even yet.
Ron you wrote:At the risk of this sounding too simplistic... if God gives discernment of its presence He will show you what to do about it. Diagnosis is not the same as discernment.You have nailed the problem on the head...I know the problem but how to deal with it is the issue. Some have suggested confrontation - oh dear, she says that is being judgemental and when I reminded her that she was doing that, she agreed. Anyhow, from the advice given on this thread, it is to confront and keep confronting and hope others will become enlightened to the realities of this person's spiritual condition. I have waited a long time, thinking the Holy Spirit would bring about repentence but it has not happened and when I confronted her this week about something that happened recently, she lamented the time that elapsed between another incident....actually, I am not all that confident there will be repentence on her part because it would mean a radical change and presently she is too proud. Maybe I lack faith....God seems to be working so slowly...Shall I throw you all another curve? Recently we had a family leave the community whose wife was skilled in cutting people down. She would in any conversation take a dig at someone, but then when that person came around, she was so sweet to her/them. She was a skilled hostess, very helpful when someone needed help AND she also lied. My opinion is that their presense did the brotherhood no good (which is agreed on by many) but remnants of that attitude remain and it is not recognized by many, at this point. The point is these people infect the brotherhood, like yeast does to a lump of dough. Thank you all for responding to my question. I am listening...it is encouraging to hear from others what I have been sensing myself. If there are more insights, I would love to hear it. I am listening and learning....ginnyrose
Anyhow, from the advice given on this thread, it is to confront and keep confronting and hope others will become enlightened to the realities of this person's spiritual condition. Can I say, confrontation is the last way to deal with a survivor of abuse.If this lady has already disclosed her history, then, she needs the right kind of support..... which may mean a change in the way she is allowed to minister at church.... within the context of her dealing with the remaining effects of her past.God wants to give everyone gifts and ministries. This situation needs a complex blend of leadership from the Spirit and genuine therapeutic knowhow. There are no shortcuts... no single blow which will crack the whole situation permanently in one go.
From what I read from your postings are, you know someone who has charisma, is well spoken, manipulative, and controlling. This person knows many Christian Buzz words, but has no formal theology training. Has read some popular books on sudo-spirituality, scanned the bible, and come up with a tickle your ear gospel that smells sweet goes down easily and has no hell. Sounds like one of Satan's disciples to me. Run save yourself.
I am now back after a very busy weekend. In the meantime I have been thinking carefully about the answers shared on this thread.It has been very enlightening to hear others confirm what I had been sensing in my own spirit about this situation, which is that this type of bahaviour is demonically inspired. But how to handle it when she has charmed so many makes it so difficult. I have been praying that others would see it as well. Having worked in a crises ministry so many years, I can spot a new ager easily but many are quite ignorant of what it looks like in reality and herein lies the problem. About abuse causing aberrant behaviours, even in adults...I have serious questions: 1. When a person comes to the LORD, walks with HIM, why do you have such serious behaviour problems? Does the HS not enable one to live above and beyond past hurts, real or imagined? 2. In crises counseling we were told to tell our clients they must take charge of their life in order to have change. All many today want to do is sit and expect others to do it for them. In the case of 'abuse' all some want to do is talk about it, have pity parties and think there is nothing wrong with them. 3. I wish I could know how many of the alleged cases of abuse are actually cases of lying by the victim? Who are people in rebellion? Do not get me wrong: I know there are bona fide cases of abuse, but I am convicned not all are. And how to discern which is which...Are there any clergy here with experience in this area that would care to comment?Blessings,ginnyrose
What to do? Pray, Pray and Pray, consider what God would have you do, and most importantly why. You can only proclaim the truth, and pray the Holy Spirit could do a work. We can do nothing, only the Lord can, and remember not all are choosen, do not be surprised if you are rejected and belittled, called narrow etc.However, you could be the sower of the seed, and like the parable, some found good soil but most did not. Her purpose is not to proclaim the truth it is to acquire followers, sometimes followers of darkness are too blind to see the truth right away. It may take time, sometimes many years for them to see the truth and accept it. Our job is only to proclaim the truth the battle belongs to the Lord.
I remember reading an article on watchman.org a while ago that was talking about cult brainwashing. One point that the article focused on was the fact that while some cults do brainwash a person, often times imparing their judgment and conscience, that is no excuse for the wrong they may do. I think the same applies to an abused childhood, or anything else. If there is no discipline, there will be no control within the peron, no matter how old, no matter what the past.Now, if there's a person teaching heresies within your church, and you spot it, it's your responsibility to approach that person. Something as simple as "that's not biblical, and you're leading people astray" might be enough to get that person thinking. If they don't respond to you, then you take it up a notch. Your pastor is the shepherd of your church, and if he doesn't already recognize that there's heresies being taught, he needs to know. Let him be a shepherd. If, however, no response comes after this person has been rebuked in private, they are to be rebuked in front of others. Keep in mind that it's not sin that's confined to them when they teach, but rather they may mislead others into these false doctrines. Rebuking them publicly- and you need be sure you're right in your rebuke, having tried the other ways first- shows those who may have been buying into here heresies that she's (1)teaching falsities, and (2)being held accountable.
Sorry, hit send early.Anyway, I don't believe that many people are possessed by demons. Rather, many are willingly deceived by them, and there is no need for possession. Others are simply blinded- my mother is very similar to this lady. She knows every path but the true path to God. To those who don't know Christ, we evangelize. But to those who are within our churches, we must rebuke! And honestly, as hard as it is, if the church isn't behind you in not accepting a false teacher without rebuke, then it's time to move on to a stronger congregation, who's willing to settle only for the unwatered down, unperverted Word of God.Grace and Peace...
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