A few Irrational Quandaries

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PTywama3 Jan 1, 2006

There is an ignorance to the modern world. People tell me I am ignorant for having political beliefs developed on related histories dating as far back as I can go (an hence not the present.) Also for holding the belief that the most recent major change in thought I see held across this wonderful world happened sometime around the early 1800's. That's quite possibly true (that I am ignorant.)But there are several other things that get to me. Evangelicals hate the Christian church. Most unequivocally. They for the most part doubt its existence as well. And that we expect for God to move to save us, even though we as the western culture have as much accurate development in biblical studies as has existed.Just for reference I count myself an evangelical Christian.I think to come to these conclusions I had to do a lot of compilation of everything I know - because it all seems quite contradictory. I'm not saying that every person proscribes to the second set of philosophies above, but that in my travel and studies I have found that the majority of vocals do (and most admittedly I proscribed myself right there.) My only real question is: why?

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ginnyrose Jan 1, 2006

Perhaps you could be little more specific about what you mean? I really do not understand your question.Now about the evangelical hating the Christian church....It seems to me what you are seeing and calling it 'hate' is not hate in the real sense of wishing someone would die and go to hell, but a sad, grevious thing where one sees apostasy in a church and they do not care! When you have relatives, friends there this gives one cause for grief. Just my thoughts..ginnyrose

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lamuskrat Jan 1, 2006

????????????????

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PTywama3 Jan 2, 2006

I don't know exactly how to be specific. I would say that as (specifically) an American people, we would rather prefer everyone around us had it wrong - and in most cases at least in a sideways sense prefer them condemned. Call it apostacy. I would call it hatred. Apostacy just doesn't adequately describe the scenario. We would prefer with everything happening around us that we (as Christians) are indeed the minority - while never attempting to assess whether or not that is true.We would prefer to assume that our background gives us some sort of priveleged insight that other people must not have the ability to come to. We would prefer that the church itself be corrupt so that we have something to stand against, rather than a country that despises a silent majority (with all the responsibility that in turn bares.)I find it hard to even imagine apostasy with all the different viewpoints it entails. All I know is pretty much everyone who holds the viewpoint that the Church indeed is in such a state (continuously) would also agree that pretty much every Christian individual I hold dear should go to hell (within the ramifications of Christ's sacrifice,) including myself.As far as the second bit, why should one who has every reason (beyond a particular doubt of human reason, if thoroughly studied) doubt God's existence enough to expect him to move in order to prove faith? What particular faith is needed? In my understanding of the bible, one would strain against God because of who He is, not due to a complete lack of understanding of His presence or desire. The American culture (specifically, at least) doesn't deny God due to lack of reason, but (in almost every case) heavily relies on irrationality. It has philosophically twisted illogically to avoid what is present. Miracles provide vision into the unkown - also maybe a special mercy - but to what credit does a God whom has laid His tracks bare need to prove himself for?Yet, for all this, we as Christians would still prefer an act of God to forcably prove Himself to our countrymen (and fellow Church members) in the likes of the Babylonian empire's proof to the Jews.I think the second speaks to the first.I'm also having a hard time learning from a world which prefers me condemned to having any thought of God and myself.

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CyberCarbon Jan 2, 2006

Why ask Why? It is almost always the most difficult question to answer and at most little more than a guess. Worse yet how useful is the fruit of your effort? How? Can teach, When? Can arrange a meeting. Who? Who can give credit. What? Can make a point. Where? can be a destination. But why can only be used in a trail to establish motive in a conviction, normally it is just idle curiosity.Maybe I do not like why because I rarely seem to have the answer, even if it involves me.

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Submarine Jan 2, 2006

PTywama3, I am also a little confused. Maybe if you could give us some examples of what you've experienced, I would understand more.Also, if you could explain your statement "Evangelicals hate the Christian church."marc

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ravin Jan 3, 2006

Why? and why not? If the devil dose not know your dead,then he sure don't know your alive. so why would he bother? will for one it's his job.he likes to work in confusion. when we bring our gifts to God his right there saying to some one, why he do that instead of, hey what a blessing that person is to the kingdom. It started with cain and able bringing gift to God. God blessed one and not the other. WHY you may ask. well glad you ask. for one able brought what God ask for and well cain brought what was good in his eyes.you know we are doing the same thing now. bringing what we want to God and not what he ask for. and so we stand there saying now God why? you do that..... or there is what about that person? and Jesus answered You just follow me.I guess the answer is "YOU JUST FOLLOW ME"

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habakkuk3 Jan 3, 2006

I've been finding in my own walk with the Lord that He doesn't normally answer "why" questions and often my "why" questions are more aptly "whine" questions. His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts as Isaiah said. I believe you'll see the pattern as you read through the scriptures.I'm so thankful that I don't have to "figure it all out." It's never going to happen anyway. The peace comes in our heart when we just submit to Him and say Jesus I don't understand it all but I'm going to trust you and follow you.As to America, there aren't nearly as many questions as we would like to think. Frankly it grieves my heart. Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

sermonindex Jan 3, 2006

There is an ignorance to the modern world. There is. Charles Wesley called it 'nature's night'. In other words, people don't 'see'. I think the truth of this begins to dawn on a soul when the soul begins to 'see' for themselves. Eventually, they begin looking around in amazement at the 'ignorance' and fragmentation of understanding which meets their gaze.PTywama3, in a way, you should not be surprised that 'people' call you 'ignorant'. They are looking at your conclusions from a disadvantaged viewpoint....... Do you see what I mean? They don't 'see' what you see.Evangelicals hate the Christian church. Most unequivocally. They for the most part doubt its existence as well. And that we expect for God to move to save us, even though we as the western culture have as much accurate development in biblical studies as has existed.If I'm reading this correctly, (and please put me right if I seem not to be), then you need to decide where you belong in the Church (capital c) and put your roots down and function as a member. Whatever the doctrinal stance of a believer, he will be judged, as Habakkuk pointed out, on the standard Jesus repeated several times, later echoed by John.....Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith... unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,.... depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Mark 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

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PTywama3 Jan 3, 2006

Dear Mr. Pugh,I think there are several reasons to ask "why." One is in the past sense, or maybe personally reflected. "Why (did) this happen to me?" Another, and my curiosity, seems to be maybe more naive. "Why does this happen (ala what causes this)?" I think it more a remark of a toddler. My personal involvement makes it harder to accept - even that I could not question it for so long. It befuddles me, which is why I posted it, simply because the answer just isn't readily apparent to my logic in its more idealistic ponderies. To this many would say that God is not the author of confusion (to which I must agree,) but for me it testifies in and to itself - that God is not the only one trying to influence the Church. He has been and is most definitely not the sole influence upon me.Maybe then, the question should be restated:-How did this seeming hatred, disillusionment, belief in the full iniquity (and thus complete lack of grace) amongst the Church come about?-When did I personally learn it? (and)-Why in the world was I ever taught this?I guess I can't escape it. There's gonna be a why. Luckily, I can answer #2 (and maybe, because of that, #3).dorcas, thank you for your words of encouragement.Thank you all for your comments. I'm not sure if I'm even conveying myself properly. Maybe its a sentiment I'm seeing and not just a seeming belief. If so, I can understand (at least in part) where the sentiment comes from, and how it has been. But I don't think I can accept what it is (generically.)*Note:* Sentiment/emotions are and will be incredibly important - not a dismissal.As far as its application amongst Christianity, I have a hard time really remembering all save possibly one group who didn't seem to hold this value indeed as a center point about the Church (as the body of Christ.) We - I, have been told relentlessly that the group I sit in is saved (inside this little circle of chairs of usually less than 700,) but that I should question the salvation of most of the people outside it. This has rarely ever been stated to me in public, but quite often said to me (or very well implied) in discussion. Maybe some of those persons were attempting to question my salvation, or get me to question it. Some weren't. I just learned that if I've never met you, there's a pretty good chance you're going to hell. And that's exactly the way I've learned it. It has spanned with me continents, and I found it was there before I arrived.Unfortunately, if I go back to the sentiment bit of it, then I really can understand a lot of its beginnings. In fact I even appreciate them. Brother Gordon has built us a wonderful site that might explain a good part of it. Maybe through that I can walk it to where it is now. Maybe. Not sure I want to anymore.I'm a bit sorry that all this sounds depressed, I don't really mean it to be so. I kinda wish these things wouldn't pop up to the top of the forum list every time I hit "submit."

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habakkuk3 Jan 3, 2006

I don't profess to fully understand what you're going through. Sorry, I'm simply explaining what has happened in my own life. You're not wrong for bringing the why questions to God but He generally doesn't answer them.Why did my best friend die at the age of 14? Why did my first wife died at the age of 36 and I've undergone my share of tragedies so the "why" prayers have been difficult. Why did I ever believe such a foolish thing?Many things I simply believed because that's what I was taught and I've to lay many of these man-made traditions and ideas down. It would be easy to say that it was pain-free but that wouldn't be true because it certainly has been.I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you as to what to do. He will bring you through and sort out things and take away these things you weren't even aware of. That's what Jesus does when we surrender to Him.Blessings to you. I pray my first response wasn't harsh, that certainly was not my intent. Believe me, I have walked the same path as you in numerous ways. :) Blessings to you...