2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians OR the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation ORBoth because they both happen at the same time?I believe this is referring to His first coming, which culminated in Pentecost, enabling our 'gathering together unto Him'.There is a similar impression being brought to my spirit, but, of us being gathered into Him unto the Father, by these earlier verses:(Young's Literal Translation) 1 Thess 311 And our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you,12 and you the Lord cause to increase and to abound in the love to one another, and to all, even as we also to you,13 to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Now read this:(Young) 2 Thessalonians 21 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God--[the day doth not come].5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you? In other words, nothing, in either case, to do with our being caught up in the air, or, His second coming, if these are two distinct events - which I doubt.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6767&forum=36#52049God Bless you also. ;-)

Jay, I also noticed Corneliu mentioned "that day" in his post... as being One Day. :-D It appears The Bible agrees with you two. (that sounds funny, actually should'a said, "that's Biblical".)I'm sorry if this seems long ... but it's only a fraction. I'll put the rest on the "Last Days Doctrine" thread, if you prefer Jay. {SSL}“One Day ~ A Day of both Reward and Jugdment” ~ (Remember, there were no divisions of Chapters and Verses in the original Scriptures.)Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.***************Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Joel 2:30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.***************Amos 5:13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time. Amos 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. Amos 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the Lord, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skillful of lamentation to wailing. Amos 5:17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the LORD. Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Amos 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?**************** Zeph. 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger. ****************Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.NOTE: Many more Old Testament verses can be given, but I'm trying to shorten this post.**************** Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Mat 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Mat 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ********************Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.**************** Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ****************Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (the 7th / or last trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God, Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. -Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. *********************************************God Bless you ~Rev. 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

I don't believe it could be any clearer. One has to work very hard to nullify these verses.I'm not nullifying those verses, the meaning of which begin at v13... The verses I mentioned earlier are not directly related to those you quote. They are about the believer being in Christ, and coming to the Father by Him in reality. The word 'gathering' is something to do with our being one in Him. The direction of our 'gathering' is from the Lord Jesus in whom we are one, towards the Father - not the other way.1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God,Remember, Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, for the moment. As we gather together unto Him, we are being brought into the presence of the Father, too. Now.

“That Day” ~Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matt. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.Matt. 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.*Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 1Thess. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.2Tim. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2Tim. 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well. 2Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. “Day of judgment” ~Matt. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matt. 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Matt. 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.Matt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 2Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 1John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.“The Day” ~Matt. 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom. 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.1Corth. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: “His Day” ~Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. “LAST DAY” ~John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.[Notice above, that Jesus says this, FOUR times in just that one Chapter of John 6]John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. “Day of the Lord” ~Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 1Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.“A Day” ~Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.“Day of wrath” ~*Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?“Day of Redemption” ~Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.“Day of Visitation” ~1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. “Day of God” ~2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, *2Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?“The Great Day” ~Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. *Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. “Day of our Lord Jesus Christ” ~1Corth. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: *1Corth. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. “Day of our Lord Jesus” ~2Corth. 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.“Day of Christ Jesus” ~Phil. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: “Day of Christ” ~Phil. 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;Phil. 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain. 2Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, *2Thess. 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Thess. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. ~ Maranatha ~

But, without Pentecost, they wouldn't be able to stand. I'm not disputing about 'that day'. I agree with you. THAT DAY has not come, even yet. But, to turn round the verses I've quoted, and say they ALL refer to 1 Thess 4:13 - 17, is just as incorrect, as your suggesting I'm suggesting 'that day' is past - when I'm not.

I used to never get involved in the subject of rapture because I was not confident in what I believe until now. I can confidently say now without a doubt that there is no rapture.The Lord is coming back one time for His church and that is in Revelation chapter 6. Its quite simple so don't let anyone fool you.All you have to do basically is read Matthew 24 along with Revelation chapter 6 and presto!!!There we are in Revelation chapter 7. I know alot of brothers and sisters here don't believe that but were all still learning as I am.You have to be convinced though with what you believe it doesn't matter what I say or anyone else says until you see it plainly for yourself. Im really heartbroken for people who believe everything they hear.You could tell them the sky was purple and they would believe it just because they are so trusting and they don't think they can learn on their own. Another thing, the word rapture is latin in case you didn't know that.Someone took it upon themselves to mess with the Greek despite the fact that God said never to take any words out of the bible or add to them.Never mess with the Greek and Hebrew. Jesus used the words "caught up" in Matthew 24 not "rapturo".

JAYSAVED WROTE:I have been doing some study on these verses and I have been doing much praying over them. I would like to get some opinions from my brothers here at SI.2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?Question: Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians OR the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation ORBoth because they both happen at the same time?Thanks and God Bless.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: One's escatology pre-determines the answer to your question. Why do I say that? Because it really doens't matter how others respond, each person has a view that is skewed by his own estacology.An Overview of End Times ViewsWhen you read the Left Behind series you're getting a fictionalized depiction of how things could play out using one of the major interpretations of the end times.Different PerspectivesTHERE ARE THREE (3) MAJOR VIEWS OF THE END TIMES, WITH MANY VARIATIONS. These views are something like the accounts of witnesses to an accident that are all different because they describe the same event from different perspectives. In eschatology—the study of end times—those perspectives come from different ways of interpreting the Bible and historical events.The Bible contains a great deal of prophecy that relates to the people of Israel, the coming of a Messiah, or other events. One of the wonders of the Bible is that God has revealed himself both very clearly and very mysteriously. What some scholars see clearly as the prediction of future events, others see as strong symbolic language to warn or encourage people, and still others see as layers of meaning that combine both a present and future purpose.Revelation is a good example of these perspectives. John was in exile for his preaching when he wrote Revelation and the church was suffering persecution. There are differences of opinion about exactly when John wrote Revelation and how to interpret its symbolism. Some see John's vision as a prediction of future events. Some see it as a highly symbolic picture of God's ultimate control suitable for any reader at any time. Still others see the symbolism in Revelation as a more obscure way for John to communicate during a time of severe persecution—a kind of secret message.Possible End Times EventsFirst, let's look at a number of events related to the end times. They are understood differently depending on the view a person holds.• First Coming of Christ—the birth, death, resurrection (return to life) and ascension (return to heaven) of Jesus as predicted in the Old Testament and recorded in the New Testament.• Second Coming of Christ—the literal return of Christ to earth• Church Age—depending on the particular view, this can be the same as the Millennium or a separate period of time before the Millennium• Rapture—the resurrection of believers at some point before Christ's second coming.• Tribulation—a seven year period of severe judgment and persecution• Armageddon—a name that has come to mean the last great battle at the end of time, though in some views it is a great battle that will consume all of Israel at the end of the Tribulation• Millennium—the earthly kingdom of Christ. It can mean a literal 1,000 years or simply suggest a very long time. It can also mean a literal or spiritual reign of Christ during this time.• Final Rebellion—the last global unleashing of Satan and unbelievers against God, in which Satan will be finally defeated. Some people equate this with "Armageddon," while others see Armageddon as an earlier battle at the end of the Tribulation and before the Millennium.• Resurrection—the final end of earthly existence with the raising up of people to face judgment, either all at once (General Resurrection) or in several stages for believers and unbelievers.• Judgment—the final accountability of people before God as they pass from earthly existence (or death) to eternity.• Eternity—a future timeless existence spent in God's presence (Heaven) or separated from him (Hell).THREE PROMINENT VIEWS OF THE END TIMES1) PremillennialThe premillennial view suggests that the Second Coming will occur before Christ reigns during a literal 1,000-year Millennium. It is the view portrayed in Left Behind. It was the predominant view of the early church and became prominent once again in the last century. It is the most literal interpretation of passages from Daniel and Revelation.An additional element important to this view is the role and timing of the Rapture—the separate resurrection of believers. Left Behind portrays a pretribulation rapture view, where the rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins. Others see it occurring in the middle or end of the Tribulation.While there are variations in detail (mostly over the exact order and timing of events), most evangelical Christians today hold a premillennial view. It is the view promoted by Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, and Brian Coffey, all of whom have written books on prophecy for Tyndale House, the publishers of the Left Behind series.2) AmillennialAs time passed and Christ did not return, scholars and church leaders began looking at other interpretations. Amillennialism is the most prominent of these. It is a view widely credited to St. Augustine, who lived from A.D. 354-430.While people holding this view believe that Christ will literally return, they see as SYMBOLIC all of the details that the premillennial view interprets literally (rapture, tribulation, Armageddon, etc.), rolling them all into a millennial age. During this period, CHRIST DOES NOT REIGN WITH A PHYSICAL PRESENCE ON EARTH, BUT BUILDS THE CHURCH THROUGH HIS INFLUENCE IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS. It is a time of continued struggle between good and evil until Christ's return ushers in the final judgment before eternity. The Roman Catholic Church and major "mainline" Protestant denominations hold this view today.3) PostmillennialAs the Industrial Revolution transformed the world and advanced human progress immensely in the 18th and 19th Centuries, Postmillennialism emerged. This view is similar to Amillennialism, except that it sees steady human progress over evil, progressively leading to a Christianized world, which sets the stage for Christ's return. Social and economic reforms as well as evangelism are important parts of ushering in this "golden age" of spiritual development.Even with a horrendous Civil War in America and other conflicts scattered across the globe in the 19th century, the sense of human progress was so strong that even World War I—in which over a million people lost their lives—came to be known as the "the war to end all wars." The world moved ahead into a decade of pleasure and renewed technological progress in the 1920's.Then the Great Depression and economic problems around the world led to radical political change. The world was on the march toward another global conflict. While considerable technological progress took place in the 20th century, the blow of two world wars was enough to remove postmillennialism from its place of prominence.Regardless of view, there is general agreement that Revelation paints a powerful picture of God's sovereignty and ultimate triumph, an exalted view of Christ, and the accountability that everyone must bear for his or her own relationship with God. Dr. LaHaye makes an important point in Are We Living in the End Times? (pp 6-7). When people have taken prophecy seriously in the past, he says, it has lead to three things:1) It has challenged believers to holy living in an unholy age; 2) It has given Christians a greater challenge to evangelize; and 3) It has caused the church to be more missionary-minded as the church has realized it must fulfill the great commission before Christ returnsXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXStever concludes: Can you conclude which escatology matches your own views. Are you a "Premillennialist"? Or an "Amillennialist"? Or a "Postmillennialist"?I had to see the new movie THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA (THE LION, THE WITCH AND THE WARDROBE)twice to understand the escatology of C. S. Lewis. Lewis believed that when Christ came the first time that he conquered sin and eliminted it and then placed "Man" on the throne and Crowned him, and then left the scene. Why did he do that? Because he believed that empowered man would bring in the Kingdom on Earth. This belief is held by many in England today. It is also held by the Catholic Church,but with the understanding that the Pope will lead all of the believers into the millennium.On the other hand, my escatology leads me to believe that Christ will come to GET HIS SAINTS immediately before the Tribulation begins. That we will be raptured to him- the dead in Christ first, and us that are alive immediately after them. That we will go to Heaven and be with Him during the 7 years. At the end of the 7 years, at the end of the Tribulation, we will come with Christ (Christ comes with His saints) at His second coming. At this time He (Christ) ushers in the 1,000 year millennial reign. We will rule and reign with Him in our new resurrected bodies. Those Jews and others that came to belief during the Tribulation will go into the 1,000 year reign in their bodies of flesh and blood. etc. etc. etc.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxAn entirely different understanding of Bible Prophecy than that of C.S. Lewis. Does it bother me that he does not believe as I do? No, because we all see through a glass darkly.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxHope this helps.God bless,Stever "Christians Bringing in the Kingdom?"

Rebecca5 wrote: I used to never get involved in the subject of rapture because I was not confident in what I believe until now. I can confidently say now without a doubt that there is no rapture.The Lord is coming back one time for His church and that is in Revelation chapter 6.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:Have you figured out what your own "escatology" is?THREE PROMINENT VIEWS OF THE END TIMES1) PremillennialThe premillennial view suggests that the Second Coming will occur before Christ reigns during a literal 1,000-year Millennium. It is the view portrayed in Left Behind. It was the predominant view of the early church and became prominent once again in the last century. It is the most literal interpretation of passages from Daniel and Revelation.An additional element important to this view is the role and timing of the Rapture—the separate resurrection of believers. Left Behind portrays a pretribulation rapture view, where the rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins. Others see it occurring in the middle or end of the Tribulation.While there are variations in detail (mostly over the exact order and timing of events), most evangelical Christians today hold a premillennial view. It is the view promoted by Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, and Brian Coffey, all of whom have written books on prophecy for Tyndale House, the publishers of the Left Behind series.2) AmillennialAs time passed and Christ did not return, scholars and church leaders began looking at other interpretations. Amillennialism is the most prominent of these. It is a view widely credited to St. Augustine, who lived from A.D. 354-430.While people holding this view believe that Christ will literally return, they see as SYMBOLIC all of the details that the premillennial view interprets literally (rapture, tribulation, Armageddon, etc.), rolling them all into a millennial age. During this period, CHRIST DOES NOT REIGN WITH A PHYSICAL PRESENCE ON EARTH, BUT BUILDS THE CHURCH THROUGH HIS INFLUENCE IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS. It is a time of continued struggle between good and evil until Christ's return ushers in the final judgment before eternity. The Roman Catholic Church and major "mainline" Protestant denominations hold this view today.3) PostmillennialAs the Industrial Revolution transformed the world and advanced human progress immensely in the 18th and 19th Centuries, Postmillennialism emerged. This view is similar to Amillennialism, except that it sees steady human progress over evil, progressively leading to a Christianized world, which sets the stage for Christ's return. Social and economic reforms as well as evangelism are important parts of ushering in this "golden age" of spiritual development.Even with a horrendous Civil War in America and other conflicts scattered across the globe in the 19th century, the sense of human progress was so strong that even World War I—in which over a million people lost their lives—came to be known as the "the war to end all wars." The world moved ahead into a decade of pleasure and renewed technological progress in the 1920's.Then the Great Depression and economic problems around the world led to radical political change. The world was on the march toward another global conflict. While considerable technological progress took place in the 20th century, the blow of two world wars was enough to remove postmillennialism from its place of prominence.Regardless of view, there is general agreement that Revelation paints a powerful picture of God's sovereignty and ultimate triumph, an exalted view of Christ, and the accountability that everyone must bear for his or her own relationship with God. Dr. LaHaye makes an important point in Are We Living in the End Times? (pp 6-7). When people have taken prophecy seriously in the past, he says, it has lead to three things:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever continues: Which one of the three are you? I already know by your answer- "there is no rapture" tells me that you are either "amillennial" or "post millennial" in your views.Is that your understanding? Let us know.God bless,Stever Is it Amillennial or post Millennial?