Seminary or Cemetery

talk about the land of the walking dead, someone has to clean out the wounded misinformed, unbelieving, lost, blind, and plain stupid teachers at some of our seminaries. I cannot believe some of the stuff that is being taught out here in California seminaries. God help us all. Some of these students come out with the attitude that there are errors and problems with the bible, and worse. I know there are some good schools out here (My favorite is Calvary Chapel in Murrieta), but someone needs to ID the bad ones, or at least the bad teachers. NOW my problem is in both cases I was so shocked I did not think to get the details to post here, one of them happened a couple of years ago, but he was an assistant pastor at an AG church.Then as another confirmation, good old Leonard Ravenhill makes a comment about the very same thing and that was back in the early 1990's.I would like to add that neither of these people were going to Calvary Chapels Bible School, I have had the pleasure of fellowshipping with several students and alumni from that fine school, the reason is I am close to the school aprox 30 miles. Satan does not have a foothold in that school. No doubt, he cannot handle the schools, prayer, worship, music and especially Chuck Smith's preaching and teaching.

I'm not against seminaries or Bible schools by any means, but unfortunately some problems begin to come out of the woodwork with them.Probably the biggest thing that irks me is the fact that you can have an 18 year old person say "hey, I think I want to be a pastor- seems like a nice easy job." Seminary says, "come here for four years, we'll make you a pastor and help you get a job." A combination of weak churches, bad seminaries, and self-anointing pastors has created a ongoing system of corruption within the church.That's what having a pastor is now. It's a position to be filled, just like a janitor. I was at a church that lost their old pastor. When he left, it left a very large dent in the church. So, the solution was to find a new pastor. They put out an ad, and a pastor was found.More than that, one of my best frinds is currently a missions student. On his campus, there's also a pastoral program. While the school itself is a great, hard-core school, many people come in who obviously have no anointing from the Lord, let alone a deep relationship with or love of the Lord. But all the same, being a pastor is viewed largely as nothing more than a job where you workd your own hours, you're glorified in the pulpit, and you're automatically the leader of a whole group of people.Didn't Ravenhill say that if Jesus came back today that he wouldn't cleanse the temple, he'd cleanse the pulpit?

groh_frog said:A combination of weak churches, bad seminaries, and self-anointing pastors has created a ongoing system of corruption within the church....But all the same, being a pastor is viewed largely as nothing more than a job where you workd your own hours, you're glorified in the pulpit, and you're automatically the leader of a whole group of people.To the first: if I have no gift of speach, should I not speak the gospel? If I have no drive or calling to missions, should I not go? I believe the bible says otherwise. It may be a simple thought that a prominant approach is with a pastoral presentation, but I'm sure it had occured to some of those folk.I have always seen and always viewed the pastorate as one of the most difficult jobs I've ever seen. People come to you with everything from personal nervousness to serious life-issues. Some of them are so trivial that its hard not to laugh, some of them are so grave and can be beyond legitimate counciling.I think it was Duncan Campbell who had spoken on viewing the pastor as something more than "just a Christian." Its a hard job, and I don't think that such a quick dismissal of human reason is either warranted or even useful. God did give us that, y'know.Not saying that the viewpoints aren't warranted, but to such a broadcast... its a heckuva slam, aimed pretty squarely at the theologian and totally at a major structure that many of us have benefited from - to which I indeed owe much thanks and where I find much of the influence for my own testimony.If I had waited for God to tell me instead of wondering at that marvel of curiosity He so embued, I would have stayed in bed.

It's not about a slam on the idea of seminaries or pastors, but the fact that such a good thing is often so degraded.It was recently defined in another column what a pastor really is. Pasotr: a minister in charge of a christian church or congregation. Origin Latin, 'shepherd'.What I'm saying is that largely a pastor has become something else entirely. Being a pastor has become almost a marketed job to many churches. And to many pastors, that's exactly what it is also.I said earlier that I have no 'beef' with semenaries, but sometimes they are a tool in furthering this chain. It's far too easy for an unanointed, self-glorifying person to go to school for four years, be able to say "uh-huh" in a few places, and be called worthy of being a pastor.Look at the latin. It's so much more than having the outward doctrinal knowledge to be able to teach a church. It's about shepherding a group of people. That's what Jesus told Peter: "Feed my sheep". But that's not a very popular idea in many churches today. What does it take to keep a flock of literal sheep? You've got to feed them, care for them, clean them, and herd them. Sometimes that means a little discipline. But most of all, the shepherd needs to know what he's doing. The only way for that shepherd to really know- not just having been told- is to have a reltionship with God.Now, we're talking mostly about seminaries. Most seminaries will ask for a written testimony of the person who wants to attend. Some even ask about the ministries the person is involved in, etc. They interview, and they discern. I wish this was a more common practice.Now, Bible schools are something else. How awesome it is that there are schools set up to help a believer grow deeper in knowledge and relationship! But when you're talking about a school designed to train a person to become a shepherd. That's a very serious thing that is taken way too lightly.

PTywama3 wrote:If I had waited for God to tell me instead of wondering at that marvel of curiosity He so embued, I would have stayed in bed.The book of Luke opens with, "It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus..." (Lk 1:3)You are right in saying that we don't always need God to tell us what to do. Often, we know the good we ought to do, and don't need to have some vision or other prodding to tell us to do it. But when it comes to something as important as a man that we will trust our church to, look at James 3:1, "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." He's saying that not many should claim to know how to be in charge, not many should teach. Those who do will be judged more seriously. That should be a good clue as to the importance of having not only a 'learned' teacher, but a godly man, knowing how to lead, and how to teach.I honestly believe that very few young people should strive to become pastors right away. Now, I believe that some are, and are clearly annointed to do so. But many are counterfeit in this. I visited a church once that had a pastor who couldn't have been older than 23. Right out of High School, he went to seminary, and graduated to have his own church. Now, this pastor has a pool of experience totaling about five years out of his parents' home. While he was seminary trained, and doctrinally straight, he was very immature, both mentally and spiritually. I can say with confidence that this man had no business as the pastor of that church. 1 Tim 5:17 says, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor..." This same book talks much of elder women teaching the younger, and elder men teaching younger. I will stand on this rock also, that to be the leader of a church, you need to be firm in your foundation. And that's what elders are, and that's why elders are put into a place of leadership.There's a place for the Timothys, who shouldn't be looked down upon because they are young. There are those who can teach us, and who are "wise beyond their years", much like Paul was as a Pharisee. But those are few and far between, and the chruch today is plagued with many who aspire to be seen as knowing God for their own glory, and not for his. There is a process of maturing that happens in every believer's life. Some mature very quickly, and some never mature at all. It's sad to see, however, when the sole basis for measuring the maturity of a potential leader is by his knowledge alone, what might look like maturity, and not on that of his actual maturity and relationship with the Lord.

I think this thread presents a legitimate concern. But it is nothing new. Seminaries teach people to be loyal to religion. While a few rise above it, most who go into the ministry and are still trusting in man, and they will believe what they are taught. They end up more like followers of man than true leaders under the power of the Spiirt. That is the way of religion, as this little story portrays: A legendary story from Africa: "Once upon a time the water of life, seeking to make itself known on the face of the earth, bubbled up in an artesian well and began to flow freely and strongly. The thirsty thronged to the well and drank gratefully its life-giving water. However, it was not long before decisions were made to fence the well, charge entrance fees, and make elaborate laws as to who could come to the well. Soon the well was the protected property of the elite and powerful. Angry and offended by these decisions, the water stopped flowing and began to bubble up elsewhere. Those who owned the first well were so consumed by bureaucracy and legislative paperwork they did not notice that the water had gone elsewhere. They continued selling nonexistent water and few people noticed that its life-giving power was gone. Sadly the same fate overtook the new artesian well. Again the water of life sought another place--and this process has been going on repeatedly throughout recorded history" (from "Christ-Following" by Trevor Hudson, pp. 99-100)

{Quote} GrogfrogI honestly believe that very few young people should strive to become pastors right away. Now, I believe that some are, and are clearly annointed to do so. But many are counterfeit in this. I visited a church once that had a pastor who couldn't have been older than 23. Right out of High School, he went to seminary, and graduated to have his own church. Now, this pastor has a pool of experience totaling about five years out of his parents' home. While he was seminary trained, and doctrinally straight, he was very immature, both mentally and spiritually. I can say with confidence that this man had no business as the pastor of that church..................................................No doubt this young man should not have been a pastor and maybe a lot more shouldn't be pastors that are trying to train to be, however, I can't help but think of the man they called the boy preacher when he started preaching. George Whitefield was the young man and he had more affect than ten older preachers of his day.Grogfrog, I seem to remember that you are very young. I hope you are not trying to make excuses for yourself not to do what God is leading you to do. Sometimes that is what we do you know. Something like telling the bush you can't speak well. :-)In Christ,GaryE

As a graduate of a cemetary... I mean seminary ;-), I can tell you all plainly that all seminaries are not created equal. I have had both conservative and liberal professors and everything inbetween. The biggest thing I learned is that there is a war of ideology going on in the Bible Schools and 'cemetaries' . The new liberals attacking the old guard conservatives. The thing is that at first the students gravitate to the conservatives but over time as people chalolenge things they become more liberal in their outlook. The problem is that the people in the pew are not buying it and that is what is killing the church right now. Now I learned a lot in seminary -- in fact i learned how to think and be fast on my feet in discusssions with people that have differing views on the Bible and doctrine. But I also learned that being a seminary grad would not prepare me for ministry -- that actually has been the result of prayer and the Word all along. Bible College and Seminary simply gave me an excuse to do both.As to age of people in the pulpit -- I don't think it means a hill of beans what age a person is. I have met 18 year preachers who had more prayer life and discipline in the Word than men who had been in the ministry for 50 years. I have met some of the most immature preachers in old folks home whinning about how people don't appreciate them anymore. "Don't let anyone despise your youth' is what Paul told Timothy -- a 22- 25 year old man who was in charge of the church of Epheseus (house church congregations of about 1000-3000 members). Spiritual maturity is not messured in years it is measured in knee calousing and a worn out BIble. No age limit on either.Blessings.