Long Before Marked | SermonIndex

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laholmes Dec 10, 2003

Jude 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.. Is this verse saying that some people are marked for condemnation? I have never noticed this before today, and I wondered what some of you thought. It sounds to me like a Jude is saying that before time (before of old) these people were set up for condemnation. Literally saying that they were written for condemnation. Blaspheming God's grace. I do not want to know what I think, I want to know the truth.

sermonindex Dec 10, 2003

It seems to me that this is talking about false teachers or false prophets leading people astray by preaching a false gospel. Wesley Notes:Jud 1:4 - There are certain men crept in, who were of old described before - Even as early as Enoch; of whom it was foretold, that by their wilful sins they would incur this condemnation. Turning the grace of God - Revealed in the gospel. Into lasciviousness - Into an occasion of more abandoned wickedness.Geneva:It is by God's providence and not by chance, that many wicked men creep into the Church.Matthew 24:11 (niv) - and many false prophets will appear and decieve many people.By Jesus stating this makes it certain that there will be false prophets in the future that are 'ordained to this condemnation'. I don't think this really is applicable to the sheep of the fold, believers in Christ. These who are false were never saved in the beginning.

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philologos Dec 10, 2003

Is this verse saying that some people are marked for condemnation? I think the emphasis is on the crime rather than on the men. 'Ordained' is 'fore-written' as in the ASVFor there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.and condemn is 'judged'. In this sense they are prejudged rather than pre-ordained. e.g.There is a statutory penalty attached to the 'crime' of turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus ChristGod's foreknowledge sees everything and forces nothing. It leaves the liberty of the human will untouched. Whatever is foretold by God will be done by man; but nothing will be done by man because it is foretold by God. Christopher WordsworthWKIP

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almondBranch Dec 10, 2003

This is Moffat's translation of the verse (I am aware that Moffat is not the most literal, but somtimes a non literal translation can capture the thought better than a literal one)Certain persons have slipped in by stealth (their doom has been predicted long ago), impious creatures who pervert the grace of our God into immorality and disown our sole liege and Lord, Jesus Christ