Pentagon spying on Quaker anti-military recruitment group

Sir, while this sounds alarming, let me assure you this type of thing has been going on a long time. This is nothing new. My uncle has told a story of young men who were applying for CO status. As they huddled together there was among them an informer who listened to their conversation (it was learned later) and then they were awarded their classification according to their speech! Meaning if they talked like Christians who really were non-resistent, they got their requested classification, otherwise you were rejected. The point was if you want to be known as a CO you better live it, it needs to be reflected in your entire lifestyle.Just thought I would share this for your information....ginnyrose

Brothers and Sisters, there is more to this issue than simply monitoring pacifists. There is definitive historical precedence that suggests that this is an unfortunate necessity. There is a book by David Hackworth called About Face in which he talks about finding care packages address to enemy troops from a group of Quakers in New England. At first I disreguarded this claim because of Hackworth's distain for any and all instutions, religious or otherwise. Later I read another book by Donald Hamblen called One Tough Marine who also found such items in both Korea and Vietnam. Hamblen is a self effacing humble old Marine who has no axe to grind with anyone. In fact, He grew up in Maine surrounded by a Quaker community for whom he had a lot of respect. He was heart broken to see these items and never understood how they could do this. That is just two examples, of many, where "peace" groups go too far with the anti-war stance. I fully understand the idea of CO. The commitment to take an unpopular position like that takes a special kind of courage. Unfortunately, as in any noble cause, there are those who take their anti-military ideals too far by providing aid and comfort to our enemies. There should not be a double standard, if they don't support our military, they certainly should not support any other military. Not to mention that such actions are treason. Now having said that, the wholesale monitoring of citizens in peaceful organizations should be limited to probable cause and I have to wonder if that process is being applied. Let us hope and pray that it is. Just an opinion from your freindly neighborhood lurker.

Very well spoken. I, too, have heard of this but could not reference the source.I am afraid what has happened to the liberal Mennonites is what Vance Havner said when he quoted Lenin: "We will find our most fertile ground for infiltration of Marxism within the field of religion, because religious people are the most gullible and will accept almost anything if it is couched in religious terminiology." Many years ago a young woman shared in our church about her experiences while attending a Bible Institute which also went to Europe and visited a Communist country. Her report was that there is NO persecution of Christians there, blah, blah. Later we had David Bontrager (now deseased), who headed a ministry to bring aide to the persected believers behind the iron curtain speak to our church. His story contradicted the young womans' in all the important points. And we believed Bro. Bontrager. His story mirrored Bro. Andrew's in "God's Smuggler". My point: Liberal Mennonites, Quakers have politicized the 'peace-making' doctrine and are not your bona fide non-resistent Christians as exemplified by the early church nor historical Anabaptists. They are a real embarrassment to the Conservative segment of Anabaptists. EDIT: BTW: if you think I am being harsh about liberal Mennonites, I will tell you my heritage is in the Anabaptist movement. And I am still there. ;-) ginnyrose

I would like to share a story about David Bontrager, the brother I mentioned in a previous post.David was a Bible smuggler to Communist countries. His stories mirrored Bro. Andrews' as written in "God's Smuggler". The folowing story was shared with me by his grandson, Dave, who married my first cousin: After David traveled to Europe and the iron curtain countries, they received lots of foreign visitors to their home. (I think Dave said they built an addition to their home to accommodate these visitors). One day a total stranger showed up and like good Christian people they were, they took him in, and he stayed for several weeks. Then one day he left and disappeared, where he went to they did not know. Sometime later they learned he was a KGB agent. The Bible says to entertain strangers because thereby men have entertained angels unawares....might could include there foreign agents as well. If I know David and his wife Amy, I know he was treated well and I seriously doubt he would have received much info about the underground church from his host because he was very aware that there were [possible] plants in any public meeting when he spoke. In fact, he has been able to spot them, at times. Just thought you may find this interesting...ginnyrose

ginnyrose, Thank you for the fascinating story! I had heard stories of such amazing people as David and Andrew. We would do well to pray that the "modern peace-activist" will use them as an example to follow. God Bless..SeekupFor the practicing CO's, I may not completely agree with you, but you have my respect. Mark Twain said "When I find myself in agreement with the majority, it is time to pause and reflect". God Bless..

quote: "Unfortunately, as in any noble cause, there are those who take their anti-military ideals too far by providing aid and comfort to our enemies."without supporting their actions, let me present how this was explained to me. in their eyes, according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, satan, not a man, is our enemy. the position taken in this situation is love for our enemies as defined by the government that was active in a war they did not support. they did not see these people as the enemy, just a threat to the american govt.'s values. the mennonites, amish and quakers are not patriotic churches. they believe that allegience to GOD and following the teachings of Jesus Christ-"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God" matthew 5:9-is their highest calling. this would come before allegience to country.forgive and or correct me if i presented their position wrong. as neither a theologin or a historian, i have no source on hand to reference this position, just a lot of conversations with co's.peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." john 7:18

You cannot lump all 'peace' churches into one category and say they are all alike. The only thing binding them together is a common history. I have heard some [conservative]Mennonites say they feel closer to a spiritual 'baptist' then they do to a liberal Mennonite.Generally speaking the liberals will not be patriotic but the conservatives will, which will include Mennonites and Amish. This may not make much sense when they will refuse to salute the flag or participate in the military. But they are loyal to our government. You will likely find no other people as loyal as they. This does not mean they will approve what the government does, but they are loyal, still. There will be exceptions,of course, but generally speaking this is the way it is.In the last election, Pres. Bush campaigned in PA and if my memory serves me right, he met with some Amish at a business place and an Amish woman had made a quilt for the President and presented it to him there! The Amish told Bush they prayed for him and he replied that he needs the prayers of the Amish. Jend, the quote about how Mennonite regard the enemy, I cannot really say how true that is..it likely is true because somewhere someone will believe that. It is like this: whatever you find in Christiandom you will find also in Anabaptist circles. Including those that will be accepting of practicing homosexuals. ginnyrose

thanks ginny for your perspective.i believe you misunderstood what i was presenting. i stated an observed common thread of the three faiths found in the gospel of matthew where although the scripture "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God." matthew 5:9 is embraced by the amish quakers and mennos, it is not written for them alone but to ALL Christians! the other scripture i quoted "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," matthew 5:44 was provided as the scriptural basis for the actions of the quakers sending care packages. this scripture too is for all Christians. ultimately how all scripture applies to each believer is an internal thing determined by our own personal walk with Jesus, not by our denomination.it has always been my understanding that the lack of willingness to salute or plege alliegance to the flag as well as not kill for our country demonstrated by the menno.'s amish and quaker has traditionally been viewed as unpatriotic but not unloyal. not sure why the issue of homosexuality slipped in but the position stated by paul, the executor of the Holy Spirit can still be found in romans 1.the quakers, amish and mennonites are quite famous for their quilt making. as a fan of quilts and someone who prays for our president, if this quilt exits, i hope an appropriate place of honor was found for it. to my understanding the amish (along with the mennonites, quakers and other Christians) have traditionally prayed for every leader to ever hold office in the u.s. and i would hate to see this change as it is our Christian duty as found in 1 timothy 2:1-3"i urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. this is good, and pleases God our Savior." our president is right, the prayers of the amish (and all other followers of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) are a blessing.any mennonites or amish or quakers out there wanting to help clarify or correct us if we misrepresented your doctrines or demonstrations of faith?peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth, there is nothing false about him." john 7:18

Jend,Yes, I understand what you are saying....perhaps the way people perceive patriotism has been a sore point of contention. So if some would say if you do not fight you are NOT patriotic and if this is what patriotism is, then no, people from the 'peace' churches are not patriotic. Yet, many would say they are patriotic because they are very loyal to our government. So regardess what you call it, I think it would be futile to squabble over semantics.The difference between people of the Anabaptist persuasian and those of the evangelical or reformed tradition is where or how the 'loving your enemies' is lived out in practical living. The ones from the 'peace' churches say no participation in any activity which would destroy anything, anybody, anywhere for any reason. The others will say you will need to defend yourself, e.g. , those who embrace the just war theory. This is the basic difference in how these points are viewed as I understand it.BTW, my heritage is in this tradition and our children have been brought up in it as well. Unfortunately, one of our sons does not share our conviction in this area, having been a 1Lt. in the US Guard. He was called up for duty last summer, having been in the inactive reserves, but failed his physical for which I thanked the LORD, considered it an answer to prayer. :-D ginnyrose

Jend-"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God" matthew 5:9-is their highest calling. this would come before allegience to country. You make an excellent point when you say this. However, I fail to see how providing sustanance, toiletries, and other commodities to our 'percieved goverment enemies'(well put BTW) qualifies as peacemaking. I have been in the military my entire adult life and have recieved many care packages. So I understand that those care packages had a direct impact on the welfare, fitness and condition of those enemy soldiers. That combined with the empowering knowledge that they are fighting a country that is divided against itself made those troops more combant effective. Thereby allowing them to kill more of our own countrymen. Not to mention the demoralizing effect it had on our troops who found those packages. How then can they be peacemakers if they help one side but forsake the other. If they were really interested in a peaceful solution they would have found a more positive way to help bring peace. Jill Carroll understood this when she came here to seek the truth about the effects war had on the people of a nation in conflict.(a plight we as Americans can not relate to, as we have not had a prolonged conflict on our soil for a long time.) Her earthly fate is unknown but her reward in Heaven will be great.(she is the CSM reporter who was abducted here in Iraq.) The origional subjects of this post can learn a lot from her example. That is after all what we are talking about. Most CO's are good people seeking to stand peacefully for what they believe and are not, at all, a threat to our nation. They have been observed and set apart from those who will harm our country in the name of 'peace'. They are out there and though you won't hear about them in the media, they intend to harm our nation and must be stopped. Again, we find ourselves toeing the line with civil liberties. ~Pray for those in authority~ that they will be just in their observations and fair in their efforts to find threats against peace. God bless you all for this well tempered debate and standing peacefully for your convictions. I pray that this can stand as an example for others to have healthy and productive dialogue for finding peace.

thanks for the information. i honor you for serving this country.based on your letter, i can see you did not understand context of my letter. the information and the position presented was what had been presented to me. i did not say this was my position nor am i taking a position to defend the actions of the quakers in this one particular incident. i have not stated my position and in fact have only requested quaker, mennonites and amish to correct us if we have misrepresented them.i believe ginny rose already conveyed the information of what you repeated with greater depth. it is not that i disagree with your position, it is just that it has already been posted.again, i honor your service to this country.peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for The One who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." John 7:18

after reading your email again, i saw a scriptural reference taken out of the context in which it was written. the scripture provided to me as support for the actions of the quakers when they sent the care packages was "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." matthew 5:44.although "blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God" is referenced as embraced by all three of the peace churches, it was not the scripture i had used in reference to the care packages.again, i honor the time you have spent serving our country.peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to bring honor to himself, but he who works for the honor of The One who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false in him." john 7:18

I think there would be plenty of people in the 'peace' churches who would agree with your sentiments on this issue. To hear the liberals talk, the USA is responcible for so many ills in the world so they feel responcible to give some measure of comfort to the enemy. In saying so, they will ignore the conduct of the enemy, what they contributed to the ills....it is these liberals that vex many of the conservatives in the Anabaptist tradition....So a larger question looms: how can you show love to the enemy without jeopardizing anyone? On the other hand, if the opportunity would present itself, I am sure the Holy Spirit would instruct how to do this....ginnyrose

The news media apears to be either naive, stupid or ignorant...this type of spying has been around for so long and is still being done by who knows who. The best we can do is do the right thing and it will not matter who spies on you. I would like to share an incident that happened a few years ago that will illustrate my point.I was alone at the Crises Pregnancy Center, having just finished a very busy morning seeing clients when I get a call from Bethany Christian Services, an adoption agency. The caller told me they had a girl come in who is 8 months pregnant and needs clothes; she is also planning to give her baby up for adoption. I told her to come and I will see what we can do for her. (Now let me insert here that we have a close working relationship with BCS: whatever they need we will provide if it is within our power to do so). In ten minutes they were there: the client and a BCS volunteer who was mentoring their client. This PG woman obviously needed clothes...she was almost naked, had very few clothes on..she looked awful. I bypassd the normal procedures - like doing a pregnancy test...my she obviously was very PG - we usually took before rendering services to a new client, because after all BCS would have done all that, right? Sure. Anyhow, I tried to make her feel comfortable, went to the closet, got several items of clothing out for her to try on which she did and then she came out looking like a well dressed lady. She was very grateful as was the BCS volunteer. A few days later her mentor took her to some government agency to see if she could get some financial assistance. The line was long and lunch time was upon them. So the mentor left her client inline while she went to a nearby snack machine to buy some food. When she came back the woman had disappeared...was nowhere to be found. Nowhere. She went outside, looked around and there did not seem to a place this female could have disappeared to in such a short period of time. She simply vanished.Later BCS discovered this female had done this to cpcs in AL and another one in MS. Who was she? No one knows.There are unanswered questions: was she really pregnant? Her caregiver said she never saw her undress....If I had done a pg test this question may have been answered. Her sob story was likely a fabrication...Why was there no ID? She did NOT have the body language of a female fixing to put her baby up for adoption (this I noticed very quickly but chalked it up to a, 'well, this is different!' case).I am certain she was a spy, but for whom? To me it does not matter because I would not care if ALL of my speech, actions would have been taped. I know what I did and said was the right thing and I am not ashamed of it.It may well be all of use being watched by someone and we may not know when it is going on so it is in our best interest to live in the fear of the LORD because He sees it all anyways and now that is what matters, IMO.ginnyrose