Pastoral thoughts on doctrine

http://www.desiringgod.orgNovember 30, 2003Romans 11:5-7 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.As I pondered the pastoral implications of preaching through such a heavily doctrinal passage as Romans 11, it seemed good to me that perhaps every few weeks we should pause in the flow of the exposition, and step back, and talk about some of the practical implications of what we've been seeing. What we have been seeing again in recent weeks from Romans 11:1-10 (as we did in Romans 8:29-33 and Romans 9:10-24) is the biblical doctrine of unconditional election. This is the teaching that God chose, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), who would believe and so be undeservingly saved in spite of their sin, and who would persist in rebellion and so deservingly perish because of their sin. In other words, the wisdom and justice and grace of God's will is always the ultimate explanation of what happens in the world -- all of it. Humans are not God. We cannot originate causes out of nothing. We, the leaders of Bethlehem, hold fast to the biblical paradox (not contradiction) that, on the one hand, God is sovereign, and on the other hand, we are all accountable and guilty for our sin and deserving of wrath. If God chose us to come to faith and to be saved from this guilty condition, it is owing to nothing in us. That's what we have seen in Romans 8 and 9, and now again in 11:1-10. That's what I mean by unconditional election.So we turn today to some pastoral thoughts on this doctrine of election.1. Not all things are good for us to know, and so God has not revealed them to us; and there are some things that are good for us to know, even when we can't explain them fully.I base this partly on Deuteronomy 29:29 where Moses said, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever." There are things God does not intend for us to know. They would not be good for us. For example in Acts 1:7, Jesus says, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority." Knowing too much of the future would not be good for us. In fact we know almost nothing about what will happen tomorrow. James 4:14 says, "You do not know what tomorrow will bring." Another example would be Psalm 131 where David says, "My heart is not lifted up; my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me." There are some things out of our reach.Other things we do know, because God has revealed them to us, but we know them only in part. So they are good for us to know. But we must be content to know only in part, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." This is especially true of the doctrine of election. We are prone to ask more questions than God chooses to answer. There is a great danger that our questions will pass over into accusations.One of the implications of this point is that we will not always know how some particular doctrine in the Bible is good for us. We Americans are especially pragmatic and demanding. If we don't see the payoff of a doctrine immediately, we tend to ignore it. We are like foolish children when we do that. Every parent knows that children must be made to learn things without knowing how they will someday be useful. We teach them the particulars of table manners when they are small, for example, so that later they will be able to navigate every social situation with grace. And they don't have a clue why you are telling them to hold the spoon a certain way and keep their elbows off the table. They have to take your word for it that the sun is standing still, the earth is a ball, the green vegetables will make you healthy, and the little bag of rat poison will kill you. If children must know these things before they know why or how, imagine the distance between us and God and how much we may have to know without knowing how it will help us.The effects on our lives of what we know are always more than we know or can explain. Sometimes we must simply learn something because God says it's true. Then later we may see how the knowledge protected us, or strengthened us, or humbled us, or purified us, or guided us, or enabled us to see other things as true. The issue boils down to trust. Do we trust that God has revealed what is good for us to know?With the doctrine of election we don't know all the ways it is good for us, but we do know some of them. Which leads to a second pastoral thought about the effect of knowing the doctrine of election.2. The doctrine of election has a strong tendency to make a church rigorous about the truth and about the Scriptures, and so keep it from drifting into doctrinal indifference and conformity to culture. The doctrine of election tends to give firmness and fiber to flabby minds. It tends to produce robust, thoughtful Christians who are not swept away by trendy, man-centered ideas. It has an amazing preservative power that works to keep other doctrines from being diluted and lost. In general it tends to press onto our minds a God-centered worldview built out of real objective truth.Here is one illustration of why that matters. In the most recent issue of Christianity Today Chuck Colson discusses "postmodernism" -- "the philosophy that claims there is no transcendent truth." He gives four or five signs from the culture that postmodernism is losing strength and may be soon passé. But then listen to the call he makes to the churches.I can't think of a more critical time for pastors, scholars, and lay people to be grounded in a biblical worldview and to defend it clearly to those hungering for truth.But are we prepared for such a challenge? George Barna recently completed a tour of American churches and came back with a dismaying report that most church and lay leaders -- 90 percent, according to one survey -- have no understanding worldview. How are we going to contend with competing philosophies if we're not even rooted in our own truth system?Ironically just as there seem to be encouraging signs in the culture, there are also signs that the church is dumbing down, moving from a Word-driven message to an image- and emotion-driven message (note how many Christian radio stations have recently converted from talk and preaching to all music).It would be the supreme irony -- and a terrible tragedy -- if we found ourselves slipping into postmodernity just when the broader culture has figured out it's a dead end. ("The Postmodern Crackup," in Christianity Today, December, 2003, Vol. 47, No. 12, p. 72).The doctrine of election an amazing effect to awaken people who are drifting in the river of inherited assumptions with no engagement of the mind. Suddenly they are jarred by the radical God-centeredness of the Bible and the frightening man-centeredness of their own hearts. They are put on a quest to build a way of thinking Biblically about the God and the world that may avoid the tragedy Colson warns about: namely, the world discovering, at last, that truth really matters, just when the church has decided in the name of cultural relevance that doctrine doesn't matter. The doctrine of election is good for us and for our grandchildren in ways we can't even yet imagine.3. A third pastoral thought about the doctrine of election is that it is one of the best ways to test whether we have reversed roles with God. This is a timeless problem, but especially in the modern world that assumes human autonomy and questions all authority and takes the judgment seat to decide if God even exists.Paul addressed this issue most forcefully in Romans 9:6-23. As he did, he heard the ancient and modern objection, "Why does [God] still find fault? For who can resist his will?" his answer to that was, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'" (Romans 9:19-20). In other words, it's not fitting for you to reverse roles with God. He's the potter. Few doctrines test more clearly whether we are judging God or God is judging us. When the book of Job is finished and all Job's defenses are spent, and all the misleading counsel of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar has faded away, the sum of the matter is this: "Then Job answered the LORD and said: 2 'I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. . . . I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." God responds, "Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me." In other words, Take your proper place, Job, and listen to me. Learn from me; don't teach me. Trust me; don't accuse me. To which Job says finally, "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:1-6). The doctrine of election puts us to the test as few others to see if we are in the shoes of the Job who accuses, or the broken and contrite Job who trusts. It is hard for a fish to know that it is wet. Wet is all there is for a fish. A fish doesn't even think of it. So it's hard for a modern person -- a person living in the last two hundred years -- to know that he is arrogant toward God. Arrogance toward God is all there is in the modern world. It's the ocean we swim in -- the air we breathe. It's woven into the fabric of our minds. We don't even know it's there. We can't see it, because we look through it to see everything else.Here's the way C. S. Lewis put it: The ancient man approached God . . . as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man the roles are reversed. He is the judge: God is in the dock. He is quite a kindly judge: if God should have a reasonable defence for being the god who permits war, poverty and disease, he is ready to listen to it. The trial may even end in God's acquittal. But the important thing is that man is on the Bench and God in the Dock. ("God in the Dock," in Lesley Walmsley, ed., C.S. Lewis: Essay Collection and Other Short Pieces [London: HarperCollins Publishers, 2000], p. 36)That's virtually what it means to be modern: the imperceptible feeling - the assumption we don't even know we have -- that it is fitting for us to question and even judge God. The doctrine of election is one very effective test of whether you are being delivered from the indigenous ocean of arrogance in the modern world, or are still drenched to the bone. It is good for us to be tested in the crucible of God's sovereignty, so that we may say with Job: "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:6). 4. The fourth pastoral thought about the doctrine of election is this: The humble embrace -- not the discussion of, not even the intellectual belief in, but the humble embrace -- of the precious truth of election and sovereign grace, produces radical, loving, risk -- taking ministry and missions.One example (and there could be so many more from William Carey and Adoniram Judson and David Livingston and John Patton and George Mueller and Charles Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards and on and on): Kristin Carlson has been in Zambia for almost a year working with street kids with Action International (Get to know them; I could have listed the director, Doug Nichols, among those radical Christians who went to Rwanda with colon cancer because he humbly embraces the truth of election). Here's what Kristin emailed to us on Thanksgiving morning:First of all, I am thankful for God's unfathomable grace in choosing me. I have done nothing to deserve this, and I continually marvel at my Father's goodness to me. The reason I am thankful to be chosen is because I know what I have been chosen for. Chosen to proclaim the excellencies of God; chosen to be eternally satisfied in God through Jesus; chosen to live in light and not darkness; chosen to taste and see that He is good. Don't miss this. Some of you have no idea of what Kristin is talking about because you have been taught that the doctrine of election is either untrue or unhelpful. You have always stood on the outside looking in and being suspicious or criticizing. You are now hearing in this email a story from inside -- from someone who knows what is like to embrace and be embraced in the doctrine of unconditional election. The effect is not what you may have been taught. Listen to its effects. She continues:I am thankful that God chose Vasco, a hard, ignorant, rebellious street kid, out of darkness into His marvelous light. And the fruit I already see in Vasco's life is testimony to his abiding in Jesus, the Vine. I am thankful for God's overflowing goodness in the past year. . . . What an amazing work to be a part of -- becoming friends with street kids and sharing the only lasting hope with them. And as an insert here, I'm thankful for the heart God has given me for these kids. Objectively speaking, I know it's not "normal" to LOVE treading through garbage piles and sitting on a plush couch (a small metal object with a piece of cardboard on top for a seat) with dirty, smelly kids, but, so it is, I love it. Embracing and being embraced by the doctrine of sovereign grace -- beginning with unconditional election -- first produces that kind of radical, risk-taking sacrificial love; and then it humbles us to rejoice in the truth that we did not produce this beauty in ourselves, God did. Then we give him the glory.If you ask: Is this a Biblical way of thinking? Does the Bible actually teach that the truth of election is intended by God to have these effects? the answer is yes. First consider the wording of Colossians 3:12-13, "Put on then, as God's chosen ones [God's elect], holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive." There's the connection. It's explicit and plain in Paul's mind. To know that you are chosen by grace, that you are set apart for God, that you are loved, should make you one of the meekest people in the world ready to endure mistreatment and ready to forgive. Loving the unlovely -- in Zambia and everywhere else.Here's another clue how this works. In Romans 8:33 Paul says, "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." The answer is: Nobody can make a charge stick against you if you are chosen by God. He is for you forever. It's crystal clear that Paul says this because he expects it to have a practical effect on us. He expects us to feel assurance and joy and then be courageous and fearless. As you stand before a decision today that seems right and loving, but risky, do you feel the effect of the question: "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?" Do you feel the assurance-producing gospel force in the word "elect"?This is not mainly a doctrine to be argued about, but a doctrine to be enjoyed. It's not designed for disputes; it's designed for missions. It's not meant to divide people (though it will); it's meant to make them compassionate, kind, humble, meek, and forgiving.5. I close with one last pastoral thought. Don't think of election apart from Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:3 says, "[God] chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world." In other words, when God planned in eternity to pluck us out of our bondage to sin, he had Christ in mind as the way he would do it. God planned before the foundation of the world to save us through the death and resurrection of Christ. Therefore, what God has done to save us and call us to himself is not to tell us ahead of time if we are elect. God never reveals this except through a relationship with Jesus Christ, so that Christ is central to our election. Instead of telling us if we are elect, what God did was to send his Son and say, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36). "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself" (1 John 5:10). He knows that he is elect.So in the name of Christ I call you: Come, take him as your Savior and your Lord and the Treasure of your life. He never casts out any who comes in faith. He forgives sin. He clothes with righteousness. He gives the Holy Spirit. He will keep you. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:27). Hear the voice of the good Shepherd and come.John Piper

Hi, I thank you for your thoughts on this precept and the pastorial concerns by which those who are called to be shepherds through our Lord, must be concerned with. As your illustration points out, the training that we give our children must be tempered by their maturity level. Paul and the writer of Hebrews also clearly make this distinction. ie, "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as carnal, as to babes in Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:1. This discernment I struggle with because I have forgot the times of learning from my Lord did not come all at once. Isaiah speaks to this learning process. "Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breast? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little." Isaiah 28:9-10. This is how I have learned. I just listened to my second sermon given by Paris Reidhead, these words struck me yesterday profoundly. (Paraphrase). "Salvation is revelation." These 3 words defined what I have also experienced. I know that Paris knows God in the same way He has revealed Himself to me. This is how Christ truly brings unity in the body of His church. I believe Jesus gives those He calls to pastor a church these directions. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THE THINGS I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo I am with you always..."Matthew 28:19-20. I stumble because I have not dilligently sought to remember and then teach to others how my Lord has taught me. Because of the length of your message I also would like to address your thoughts sequentially. abiding in ChristJeff

I would like to look at the section of Scripture you began with. However, I will begin in verse 4, "But what does the divine response say to him: "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." This verse is crucial to understanding Paul's teaching about the work of grace that changes a man's situation. I agree with you on the nature of man. He can not save himself. He can not reach out to God. He has no understanding. He is at the mercy of his flesh," because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened...Therefore God also gave them up to uncleaness, in the lusts of their hearts..." Romans 1:20-24 So with this thought cemented within the context of Paul's teaching let us procede with verse 4. Please focus on these words, "men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Depraved men who are not born again, will bow their knee to Baal. God established this precept in Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed..." As you have stated what the Scripture teaches, man will perish with out God's grace. They will remain in the seed of satan. However in His promise, there are those who are of the Seed of the woman. We know that by faith we have been justified. "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God throught our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1 All who are of the seed of satan have enmity with God. Continuing, "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace..." Here Paul teaches that by faith we gain access through Jesus Christ. We are born of God or we remain in the seed of satan.Therefore we can see that those "men who have not bowed the knee to Baal could have only been saved by God's grace. The men were given a choice. The evidence is presented by God, we have a choice to remain dead, or to follow Jesus. I also agree with you in terms of the importance of the doctrine of election. This is God's revelation of His attributes to us. I can not begin to fathom His sovergnity. However, the words of " doctrine of unconditional election," are words used to define man's thoughts about God's attributes. I once might have believed as you in terms of what election could be defined as. Yet, I learn, day by day, precept upon precept, line upon line, here alittle there alittle that the only system that God has for man is to look unto Him for His revelation of Scripture to us. So my definition, or my theology, is refined by Him. This is what Adam had, and the predestined work of Jesus will restore those who live by faith. One can not teach about grace without faith. More to comeJeff

Hi Jeff,Thought I would interject something quickly here.The original post is not written in the first person. It was submitted by swsojourner and is attributed to John Piper, some of his sermons can be found here on this site. A small point, but thought I would point that out.Secondly, this is a fabulous treatment of this doctrine. It found a ready place in my thoughts as I have believed it to be as was stated eloquently "a reversal of roles".From a simpletons standpoint and please correct me if I am off base here, maybe it could be looked at this way.Your mother calls you and your brother in for supper. You, who love and obey your mother and also hate cold food, react instantly to her voice and come in. Your brother, being arrogant and rebelious, ignores his mothers plea and lingers outside till his food spoils. When he finnaly gets around to coming in, he realizes that it is too late, he will be going hungry.All along the mother, who loves both of her sons, knew how they would react, always holding out hope towards the rebelious one, that he would change his ways, but she knows her sons.Analogys always break down at some pointand when you are starting from that point, well....Much thanks to you, swsojourner

Mike's quote:Your mother calls you and your brother in for supper. You, who love and obey your mother and also hate cold food, react instantly to her voice and come in. Your brother, being arrogant and rebelious, ignores his mothers plea and lingers outside till his food spoils. When he finnaly gets around to coming in, he realizes that it is too late, he will be going hungry.All along the mother, who loves both of her sons, knew how they would react, always holding out hope towards the rebelious one, that he would change his ways, but she knows her sons.Mike, this is a nice illustration but it is not 'unconditional election' as Calvinism (and Piper) teaches it. The first point of the Remonstrants (Arminians) was Against Calvin’s teaching of the unconditional, arbitrary choice of a sovereign God, the Remonstrants taught that God’s foreknowledge of man’s faith was the condition of his election.Your illustration is a perfect example of election based on foreknowledge; the whole point about Calvinism's 'unconditional election' is that it is 'unconditional'. ;-) That is, it is based on God's sovereign choice without reference to man's merit or God's foreknowledge. Election based on God's foreknowledge of man's faith or action would not be 'unconditional'.and I have a question.. is election to salvation or to service?

Thankyou Mike for looking out for the rookie.

Hi Ron, In regards to your question...is election to salvation or to service? I too have a sense that the doctrine of election covers more of what we will become in Christ. There is also another shadow that I see in regards to election. Within the Scriptures we are given individuals, who it is said of that the Holy Spirit has worked even within the mother's womb. "He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15 This is speaking of John the Baptist. Like wise the seperation of Samson unto the life of a nazerite. Within these two examples we find that the life is filled with power of God to do His work. But there is also a seperation between these two people. Samson's life is impacted severly by his following the lust of the flesh. As I said these are shadows in my understanding. As the earthly tabernacle was a shadow He calls us to search for the heavenly sanctuary which is creating this shadow. in ChristJeff

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." Within the pastorial concerns of this sermon, the author applies this verse in a sense that seems to discourage the believer from seeking a deeper relationship with our Lord. I rejoice in what Moses wrote, for the treasures of revelation are the source for my passion that the Lord has given me. You see the last section of this verse was not included within the verse the author quoted. "That we may do all the words of this law." This is the grace that I know. God revealing Himself to me is my salvation. He enables me, stumbling along the way, to do the words of His law. His law is spiritual. It is the shadow from which man suffers in the wilderness. Hebrews chapter 8 addresses the problem from which our Lord delivers us from. The author begins, "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying; We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens. A Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man...Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer...I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I wil be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying 'Know the Lord." for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Hebrews 8:1-11This is what our High Priest offer us who give up the shadow and seek His treasures.in ChristJeff

Thanks Ron,I figured if I threw it out there, someone would come along and help me dismantle my thought process. Even as I had finished the illustration I knew it was wraught with problems. If I follow along then, I guess that would make me a Remonstrant...(Gasp!) ;-) After going back and re-reading this original post, especially the latter part dealing with the email from "Kristin", if I counted correctly eight times the word "chose or choosen" is used.Going back to the other thought about "The ancient man approached God . . . as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man the roles are reversed. He is the judge: God is in the dock. "Trying to tie these together with the key word "unconditional" doesn't seem all that difficult. It brings to mind for some reason David's "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?" (Psalm 8:4)Is it that we are asking the wrong question? Instead of "who" is choosen 'unconditionally' or with God's 'foreknowledge' isn't the wonder in that He is even "mindful" of us in the least, considering the depravity of us creatures, the exceeding sinfullness of the human heart..."The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt;There is none who does good,No, not one." (psalm 15: 2,3)The hard part for me is trying to grasp the thought that I could be "choosen","Who, me?, are you kidding?"Yet, I accept it while I shake my head in bewilderment.Amazing grace it is.I know this could go on endlessly, so I will stop short other than to ask, am I processing this correctly?To the question you posed "salvation or service"?Both?!?

I have had another thought in regards to pastoring a flock and the caution which point 1 stipulates. Again the thought conveyed by the sermon is one of saying don't think to high. Yet Paul who founded many churches taught this way. Paul prayed for the congregation of Ephesus, "That He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, MAY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND, with all the saints what is THE WIDTH AND LENGTH AND DEPTH AND HEIGHT, TO KNOW THE LOVE OF CHRIST WHICH PASSES KNOWLEDGE; THAT YOU MAY BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD."Paul knows what he is praying for the other believers to know. He is exhorting them to seek Christ. Teaching the doctrine of election, with the thought of limiting the seeking of the believer, for fear of breaking the law, will only cause the sheep to look to Moses for the feeding. more to comeJeff

Mike's quote:Going back to the other thought about "The ancient man approached God . . . as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man the roles are reversed. He is the judge: God is in the dock. "Trying to tie these together with the key word "unconditional" doesn't seem all that difficult. It brings to mind for some reason David's "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?" (Psalm 8:4)Hi MikeI generally try to keep out of these Calvinsim/Arminian debates other than to ask questions of those who have 'sorted it out'. However just a comment or two. As I understand it, Calvinism is a very tightly knit series of argument where each one is integrally part of another. (Finney's theology is the same but from a different direction) If a person feels the need to suspend judgment on a particular part of the theology the whole thing grinds to a halt.Unconditional election is part of a package deal which includes the heart of orthodox Calvinism; The ULI of TULIP.Unconditional election (please correct me if you are a card-carrying Calvinist and I am misrepresenting your view)is a theological term which puts God's choice of who will be 'saved' into the sovereign counsels of God's will. Without reference to faith or response or obedience God chose who would be saved. He based it on His own sovereign will and nothing must be added to this statement if it is to remain 'unconditional' election. Technically, to say 'He elected me because..' undermines the word 'unconditional'. There can be no 'reason' why God did this other than that He decided to do so. To enquire further is an impertinance. The 'double predestination' held by some Calvinists is the logical counterpart to this, namely that God 'unconditionally elected' the others to 'damnation'; this is likewise 'unconditional' This fate was determined before the worlds were made.Linked to 'unconditional election' is the L of 'limited atonement' (sometimes called 'particular redemption). This teaches that Christ only died for the 'unconditionally elected' and that no sacrifice or redemption has been provided for any who were not 'unconditionally elected'. They cannot be saved; no blood has been shed for them. Christ's death was 'limited' to provide 'atonement' only for the 'unconditionally elected'. Christ will see of the His travail and be satisfied as His travail was only for those who will inevitably be saved.Linked to the UL of 'unconditional election' and 'limited atonement' is the I of 'irresistable grace'. Those who were 'unconditionally elected' and for whom Christ died 'particularly' will not be able to resist grace; they will be saved. They will respond in faith because they were predestined to do so as part of the unconditionally elected. The fifth letter P is 'perserverance of the saints'.. (you will be used to the logic of this now..)those who were unconditionally elected will come to faith and their faith will not fail, consequently they have the guarantee of 'eternal security'.This is the package deal of classical Calvinism. You take it or you leave it. Strictly speaking, I can't even add the phrase 'it's your choice'. ;-)Now all this will have steam coming from the ears of some of our forum. Please remember that I am trying to explain what others believe. These are not my views. If I have misrepresented classical Calvinism, please forgive me and correct me. WKIP

Thankyou Ron, I am beginning to get the feel for this platform. I need listen and reflect upon what one is saying. Thankyou for clearly stating Calvin's thoughts. This is my understanding based on what I understand God has revealed to man through the Scriptures. First God says in Scripture, "Say to them; "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil ways! FOR WHY SHOULD YOU DIE, O house of Israel?' Ezekiel 33:11.Also, "Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair" O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways." Ezekiel 33:20Also, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.In these three verses God clearly shows us His desire for His creation. Especially note what Peter says, "The Lord...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Knowing what Scripture teaches us about the nature of fallen man, again we know that it is imposible for man to know God unless God reveals Himself to man. Knowing this fact, again knowing this fact, points man to God for His grace. When Peter writes that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, who is responsible for enabling man to repent? Does not Scripture prove that all begins with God. He is the Creator. It is only through God's grace that man can come to repentance. So God declares, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live, Turn, turn from your evil ways!' God in His nature can not lie. If He says He desires that the wicked should turn to Him, He will also provide the grace to enable the wicked to turn. By faith those who turn to Him are snatched from the devil's hand. O House of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to HIS OWN WAYS.back at you.Jeff

I would like to address the second point of this sermon. The theme or reason for holding onto the doctrine of election is based on that the church must remain entrenched in the definitions presented by the men of the church. The doctrine of election will hold our eyes on God and thus while the world changes we will always be anchored to the only truth. I can picture a Roman Catholic bishops writing the same thing in the 1400-1500's. Their doctrine of election was somewhat different, yet they could argue the same way. And then God comes along and messess everything up by raising up a man such as Luther. The world was moving into the Age of Enlightenment. As Solomon says, there is nothing new under the sun. in ChristJeff

Hi JakeOur mutual friend Robert Barclay's 5th and 6th Propositions were aimed at this expression of the Calvinism of his day. Barclay referred to 'universal redemption'. By this he did not mean 'universalisim' which teaches that all men (and in its extreme form, Satan himself) will ultimately be saved. Barclay was strongly defending the teaching that the benefits of Christ's death were available to all.As I mentioned in my post, these are not my views. I am trying to state them as honestly as I can until someone comes along who will do the job from personal conviction.

Jeff wrote:I am beginning to get the feel for this platform. I need listen and reflect upon what one is saying. Thankyou for clearly stating Calvin's thoughts.Whether Calvin and his fellow-travellers will share your gratitude at my 'clear statements', I wait to see. ;-)

I would like to address point 3. The focus of this thought is that the teaching of election prevents us from reversing roles with our Creator. I submit to you that there are 3 ways to teach the sheep about the doctrine of election. The first, and probably most taught way is to tell the sheep who have confessed Christ as their savior that they were predestined by God to be believers. That as I have read of Calvin's thoughts, provided by Agent 001, the sheep are saved by the sacrifice on the cross. That the blood of Christ has done its work, and so on. I have heard of another group of teachers who feed the sheep in a similar way. "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father." For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones." Luke 3:8. The truth as I see it is that this way of teaching the sheep can easily lead them to the same conclusions that the Pharisee had arrived at. You see this teaching can easily lead to the promotion of man. How would a sheep of this fold react to Mordecai's statement. "For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" Esther 4:13-14The 2nd way to teach the doctrine of election is more correct than the first. The pastor teaches the sheep that they are the elect. And that since they are the elect, according to Romans 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON..." I know a few Mennonite brothers who live this way. You see Scripture clearly teaches that those who are the elect will be conformed to the image of His Son. They are taught that if your are one of the elect your life will begin to look alot like Jesus'. So here is the problem with this method. They begin to live under the law. And they struggle to know God in the middle of all their toil. Yet I know of some wonderful brothers who carry those burdens, and there heart is good. They are seeking hard after God. The third way to teach the doctrine of election is taught in Hebrews chapter 8. The writer is addressing those who are believers and yet have problems similar to the Mennonites. The more perfect way is to know our High Priest. "Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer...For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me..." Hebrews 8;1-11. If men would look to the High Priest so that He would write His words in their hearts, and no other man would have to continually intercede to correct a brother. If you know Christ as He has offered in the New Covenant, there would be no longer need of worrying about the focus of the sheep. Those who hear His voice are His sheep. They know His voice. They will always have the right view. He will increase and the believer will decrease.more to comeJeff

In addressing point 4, the author writes about the risk taking of an individual who holds on to the doctrine of election. This thought of risk taking is not compatible with what is taught in Scripture. What risk did Joshua take when Jesus came to him and told him exactly what to do in the taking of Jericho? What risk did Moses take when he lifted up his staff to part the Red Sea? What risk did Peter take when he healed a certain lame man at the gates of the temple? I believe rather that God speaks and we learn to trust as He leads us by the Holy Spirit. The problem is not of risk taking, the real problem is unbelief or disobedience. How many today who do works for God know Him? To the world it may seem a risk, but to those who have walked with Jesus there is no risk. In ChristJeff

And finally point 5. The author writes,"when God planned in eternity to pluck us out of our bondage to sin, he had Christ in mind as the way he would do it. God planned before the foundation of the world to save us through the death and resurrection of Christ." Andrew Murray speaks to this point, "A preaching that insists upon salvation by faith chiefly as pardon and acceptance must produce feeble Christians. The fulness of faith is indispensable to the full Christian life." The Holiest of All pg 420

Thanks Ron,I guess I am reaching more for personal conviction in a sense, not sure where my leanings fall in this I don't think I 'hold' to a particular camp. Maybe I was attempting to get someone to push me into one or the other ;-) It just seems so beyond me trying to figure out the ways of God in this matter and why it matters if I have an understanding (albiet limited) or not in daily practice. Something tells me it does.For now I think I will take the advice of Jeff and "listen and reflect" for awhile, my brain hurts.