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In defense of Brother Katz

sermonindex Jan 19, 2006

Hi GuysThis is a topical subject for me as Art was at our church two weeks ago and things were definately shaken up. Some embraced his message wholeheartedly,others were angry and many confused. Our Pastor spent the next Sunday sermon on explaining what had happened and his view on it.I have a more radical point of view on the subject as a whole. I was born-again at the age of 26. I have been a Christian for 15 years and lived throught the "Torronto Blessing," and the "Pensecola revival." I believe everything that could be said has been said about those two events and I do not wish to add to it. Here is what I will say. We have a generation of preachers and leaders today who have been raised in the church. They are second or third generation and many come from people who were saved in the Holiness movements of various kinds or people who were saved out of denominationalism.As many of you readers know, there are no grandchildren in the Kingdom of God, only sons and daughters. Many of the people who fill the pews today "gave their hearts to the Lord," when they were three or four years of age, a thing that I question greatly. They hear tales of great movements of God in the past, how the Spirit of God would come down, how men and women were changed by the almighty power of God and it is something that they want to experience for themselves.The problem is, if you have not had a genuine Calvary experience, then you are still carnal and you cannot discern spiritual things. You will be tossed about by every wind of Doctrine, but most of all, you will be dissatisfied by your "experience." Why? Because outside of genuine regeneration and reconcilliation, what do you have?You have a religious experience. A religious life and experience will leave you cold and dead and longing for something "real." And since you have never experienced the genuine presence and reality of God, you will easily fall for the countefiet. The truth is, all those genuinely born again, realize that all of their needs are met and fulfiled in Jesus and Him crucified. To find genuine and deeper experiences with God the man or woman of God sets out on a path of death to self and he will find that as he denies his flesh then he ackkowledges Jesus, if he will not deny his flesh then he will find himself denying Jesus. I believe this is what Mr Katz is calling Christians to do. Brother Whitfield made a name for himself and became infamous when he claimed in an open letter that almost the entire clergy "knew nothing of the new birth." If he were alive today it is possible he could write the exact same letter. He was banned from every pulpit , which was just as well as tens of thousands showed up to hear this fearless man of God and we had revival in the land. 1st Corinthians 1:22-24 "For Jews require a sign and Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, to the Greeks , foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Madam Guyon writes................I am deeply grieved that so many in this day(she lived 300 years ago, people never change)even some good people, allow themselves to be led astray by the enemy. Has not God warned us against false prophets and lying wonders of the last days? All true prophets have spoken in the name of the Lord-"Thus says the Lord." The enemy gains great advantage because people love extraordinary manifestations, signs and wonders. I believe the inordinate love of external signs is used of the enemy to draw people away from the Word of God and from the inward way of faith.The signs that come from God encourage you to die to yourself. (Intimacy with Christ..p21) Madam Guyon spoke prophetically when she said that "the inordinate love of external signs is used of the enemy to draw people away from the word of God." According to Barna , this generation is the most Biblically illiterate generation for almost 300 years. You see, in 1st Corinthians, the Jews wanted a sign from Jesus that His power would establish power and dominion over all their enemies. The Greeks were looking for some brilliant philosophy that only the very rich and educated could understand, something that would conquer and better other philosophies of the day through the sheer power of intellect and man's genius. What they both got, was Calvary. And by being focused on outward signs and philosophies, they missed the greatest event in the history of the planet. You see, God Himself had stepped into time and space. Not as a rich man, not a highly educated man, but as a poor working man. The Lord Jesus was born amongst the filth and stench of a manger, not in a palace, not in a temple, but in the very lowest reaches of the earth. If you are a religious man, or a worldly man, Jesus is going to disappoint you every time. He will not perform at the whim of men, He came to die. To the Jews a stumbling block, to the Greeks, foolishness. Let no one doubt though, that Jesus had come to conquer, and conquer He did. He conquered doubts, He conquered fears, He conquered death He conquered pride and He conquered sin. Yet, in many ways, Calvary is not enough for people. They want, no demand, victory over their circumstances, a change in circumstances, anything less is unacceptable. Yet the way of the cross is the same today as it was then. It signifies death and victory, not for changed circumstances, but in the very midst of them. We see in the cross, the perfect example of obedience, even although Gethsemane showed the struggle. When we accept the circumstances of our lives, no, embrace them, then we see the miracle. Yet, when we surrender to the Lord in the very midst of the most difficult circumstances, lay our lives down, then a whole other world opens up before us, this is the true road of faith. Sometimes circumstances were overcome by the Apostles, just as many times they were not. Yet the Apostles discovered true faith in the very midst of their trials and tribulations. The Apostle Paul learned to be content in whatever circumstances he found himself in. It is worth remembering that all of the Apostles and a good many of the early church were eventually tortured and killed, were they abandoned by God? Of course not. Regardless of your circumstances this day, know that Jesus is in the midst of the storm with you. He will take you all the way through if you keep your eyes upon Him and that He calls on us to give thanks in everything. Remember when the Apostles were scourged for Him? They rejoiced. The Holy Spirit tells us to count it all Joy when you fall into various trials for this tests your faith that produces patience. When we face something horrific and life threatening, then we discover why we serve God. Is He our "Genie in a lamp?" or is He our Lord and Master to whom we have sworn to follow, all the way to the cross and beyond. In the beauty of Holiness Frank

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tacklebox Jan 19, 2006

Frank,Great post. It really ministered to me. Great thoughts, and the presentation was graceful yet chiding. I hope everyone on these boards reads this post.-Chris

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Nellie Jan 19, 2006

Very good, Frank.Amen.Nellie :-)

sermonindex Jan 20, 2006

I can see where many so called christians will be easily deceieved in our time.It will be very interesting to see how many fall.How many who think their rich are really miserable,poor blind and naked.What does it mean to buy gold tried in the fire? Don't you have to first be willing to go through the fire to get to the gold? The church has become so strange.Why are so many christians obsessed with vitamins for instance? They want to find out all the benefits of being a christian and that's it.They want to know all about their heritage and what the bible says about them and thats all they care about.They perk right up when you talk about their spiritual geneology and how their grafted in.What about being holy and winning the lost? You talk about those things and they get mad at you for upsetting their apple cart.How much teaching is life changing and convicting? How much of it wants you to be more like Christ?

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tacklebox Jan 20, 2006

They perk right up when you talk about their spiritual geneology and how their grafted in.What about being holy and winning the lost? You talk about those things and they get mad at you for upsetting their apple cart.How much teaching is life changing and convicting? How much of it wants you to be more like Christ?Amen!!!

sermonindex Jan 22, 2006

Religous men love to talk about religous heritage and things of the past, they also like to talk about how bad the world is.Born-again Christians love to talk about our future and why we should love our enemies and we also like to focus on our own wicked ways rather than how bad the world is.........Frank

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IRONMAN Jan 28, 2006

bro Franki'd wanted to post on this thread but the Lord restrained me and had me read up on what He's been saying through brother Katz in text sermons section concerning the prophetic and the apostolic and with good reason. bro the word of the Lord is indeed offensive, look at the results of it, Christ crucified, the church persecuted and the world turned upside down. those that were angry or that get angry with bro Katz for highlighting the need for the death of self that Christ may live themselves are not willing to die to self. we have a tendancy (and the Lord showed me this in my own life) to want to keep life as intact as possible after being saved. i feel that those whose lives have not been altered to some degree by the Spirit of God since salvation have not been saved at all and are still in danger of hell. one can't have a true calvary experience as you said and remain the same, it doesn't work because the old sinful man must die. the apple cart has to be tipped right over. you wroteYou see, God Himself had stepped into time and space. Not as a rich man, not a highly educated man, but as a poor working man. The Lord Jesus was born amongst the filth and stench of a manger, not in a palace, not in a temple, but in the very lowest reaches of the earth. If you are a religious man, or a worldly man, Jesus is going to disappoint you every time. He will not perform at the whim of men, He came to die. To the Jews a stumbling block, to the Greeks, foolishness. Let no one doubt though, that Jesus had come to conquer, and conquer He did. He conquered doubts, He conquered fears, He conquered death He conquered pride and He conquered sin.AMEN bro, the Lord came in a way that defied the conventional wisdom. it leads me to ask "if Christ came and was born in a stable and was not wealthy, why the insitence on these extravagant bascilicas laden with gold and finery, would Christ not have said for it to be melted down and divided among the poor?what of the oppulent lifestyles of some of these ministers?" if the Lord didn't live as a pasha, why should we? if Christ came to do the Father's will what right have we to our own will? if Christ suffered, how dare we think we are not to suffer persecution for His sake?bro Frank Art Katz has a jealousy for the Lord which the Lord has graciously allowed me to share in, a deep desire not of my own but God's to see His Church revived and all this present foolishness utterly destroyed. the Lord will surely tear all this down and expose us for what we are and show us our true state before Him and before all creation. our nakedness and shame will be made plain and the proud will be brought low so the Lord may be exaulted. Lord conform us to yourself by any means necessary.AMEN.

sermonindex Jan 28, 2006

Amen BrotherThere is a growing movement within the Body that knows and realizes that judgment begins in the house of the Lord and that unless we , who are called by His name, turn from OUR wicked ways, then He will not revive us. Death to self is on the march, may it grow stronger each day. If you get a chance, please read "Will you stand up and die for your God?" Its under Scricptures and Doctrine, I am sure it will be a blessing to you.........Frank

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