What is Christian Perfection?

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PreachParsly Jan 20, 2006

I have been thinking about this for a few days now. I think the question is not, "Are we commanded and have the opportunity to be 'perfect'", but what does it mean to be 'perfect?'Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. I am also interested in the history of the 'doctrine of christian perfection." I'm wondering what the different views of it are.I recently read a sermon by Finny on the subject and one by Wesley.I look forward to the discussion. Thanks!

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InTheLight Jan 20, 2006

Great question and I think a search of the forums will show there has been some considerable discussion on this previously.One thing that may also be helpful is to look a little closer at the two Greek words used in the verses you quoted. From Vines Expository Dictionary...katartizo "to render fit, complete" (artios), "is used of mending nets, Matt_4:21; Mark_1:19, and is translated 'restore' in Gal_6:1. It does not necessarily imply, however, that that to which it is applied has been damaged, though it may do so, as in these passages; it signifies, rather, right ordering and arrangement, Heb_11:3, 'framed;" it points out the path of progress, as in Matt_21:16; Luke_6:40; cp. 2_Cor_13:9; Eph_4:12, where corresponding nouns occur. It indicates the close relationship between character and destiny, Rom_9:22, 'fitted.' It expresses the pastor's desire for the flock, in prayer, Heb_13:21, and in exhortation, 1_Cor_1:10, RV, 'perfected' (AV, 'perfectly joined'); 2_Cor_13:11, as well as his conviction of God's purpose for them, 1_Pet_5:10. It is used of the Incarnation of the Word in Heb_10:5, 'prepare,' quoted from Psalm_40:6 (Sept.), where it is apparently intended to describe the unique creative act involved in the Virgin Birth, Luke_1:35. In 1_Thess_3:10 it means to supply what is necessary, as the succeeding words show."[ From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 101. See kataritzo_under_FIT.teleiosis denotes "a fulfillment, completion, perfection, and end accomplished as the effect of a process," Heb_7:11; in Luke_1:45, RV, "fulfillment" (AV, "performance").In Christ,Ron

sermonindex Jan 20, 2006

An excellent article to read about Christian Perfection is CHRISTIAN PERFECTION BY ASA MAHANGo here to read thishttp://www.victoryoversin.com/cperfect.htmHere is a short quote"The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open. To this fountain the sinner is brought, and because he may descend into it, and there "wash his garments and make them white," he can fulfill the command, "Wash you, make you clean," "make to yourself a new heart and a new spirit," and "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." The sinner is able to make to himself a "new heart and a new spirit," because he can instantly avail himself of offered grace. He does literally "make to himself a new heart and a new spirit," ONLY when he yields himself up to the influence of that grace. The power to cleanse from sin lies in the blood and grace of Christ; and hence, when the sinner "purifies himself by obeying the truth through the spirit," the glory of his salvation belongs, not to him, but to Christ."

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philologos Jan 20, 2006

Wesley made the point that the word 'perfect' is relative and not an absolute condition. Evangelical or Christian perfection is not to be confused with divine perfect, nor angelic perfection. Perfect is relative in the sense that a new born child may be perfect while still needing daily improvement and growth.

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PreachParsly Jan 20, 2006

That is correct, philo.I think when you start talking about Christian Perfection the first thing you have to do is give a definition of perfect and explain what you mean. That's what I would like this thread to turn into. Here is a Wesley sermon on Christian PerfectionI believe Finney and Wesley both equate the words "Christian Perfection" with the word holiness.

sermonindex Jan 20, 2006

Here is a quote from CHRISTIAN PERFECTION BY ASA MAHAN"My design in the present discourse is to answer this one question, What is perfection in holiness? In answering this inquiry, I would remark, that perfection in holiness implies a full and perfect discharge of our entire duty, of all existing obligations in respect to God and all other beings. It is perfect obedience to the moral law. It is "loving the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our strength, and our neighbor as ourselves." It implies the entire absence of all selfishness, and the perpetual presence and all-pervading influence of pure and perfect love. "Love is the fulfilling of the law."In the Christian, perfection in holiness implies the consecration of his whole being to Christ the subjection of all his powers and susceptibilities to the control of one principle, "faith on the son of God." This is what the moral law demands of him in his circumstances. Were the Christian in that state in which he should "eat and drink, and do all that he does for the glory of God," in which his eye should be perfectly single to this one object; or in which the action of all his powers should be controlled by faith, which works by love, he would then, I suppose, have attained to a state of entire sanctification his character would be "perfect and entire, wanting nothing." Every duty to every being in existence would be discharged."

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PreachParsly Jan 20, 2006

That sounds almost the same as this Finney quote:It is perfect obedience to the law of God. The law of God requires perfect, disinterested, impartial benevolence, love to God and love to our neighbor. It requires that we should be actuated by the same feeling, and to act on the same principles that God acts upon; to leave self out of the question as uniformly as he does, to be as much separated from selfishness as he is; in a word, to be in our measure as perfect as God is. Christianity requires that we should do neither more nor less than the law of God prescribes. Nothing short of this is Christian perfection. This is being, morally, just as perfect as God. Every thing is here included, to feel as he feels, to love what he loves, and hate what he hates, and for the same reasons that he loves and hates.God regards every being in the universe according to its real value. He regards his own interests according to their real value in the scale of being, and no more. He exercises the same love towards himself that he requires of us, and for the same reason. He loves himself supremely, both with the love of benevolence and the love of complacency, because he is supremely excellent. And he requires us to love him just so, to love him as perfectly as he loves himself. He loves himself with the love of benevolence, or regards his own interest, and glory, and happiness, as the supreme good, because it is the supreme good. And He requires us to love him in the same way. He loves himself with infinite complacency, because he knows that he is infinitely worthy and excellent, and he requires the same of us. He also loves his neighbor as himself, not in the same degree that he loves himself, but in the same proportion, according to their real value. From the highest angel to the smallest worm, he regards their happiness with perfect love, according to their worth. It is his duty to conform to these principles, as much as it is our duty. He can no more depart from this rule than we can, without committing sin; and for him to do it would be as much worse than for us to do it, as he is greater than we. God is infinitely obligated to do this. His very nature, not depending on his own volition, but uncreated, binds him to this. And he has created us moral beings in his own image, capable of conforming to the same rule with himself. This rule requires us to have the same character with him, to love as impartially, with as perfect love--to seek the good of others with as single an eye as he does. This, and nothing less than this, is Christian Perfection.

sermonindex Jan 21, 2006

Im one of the few who believe that christians can live without sin.Its alot easier to live without sin than to live with it.Dying to yourself is easy when you really love the Lord and want to please Him in everything. If you want to know how to be perfect here is your measuring stick: "If any man can bridle his tongue the same is a PERFECT man and able to bridle his WHOLE body."-James v.? If you want to be perfect learn to hold your peace and when tempted...die to it.But if you fail don't give up or get discouraged.Once you learn how to bridle your tongue your on your way to perfection.

sermonindex Jan 21, 2006

I really feel led to add this: When I finally decided I wanted to put away my carnal ways things didn't get easier they got worse.I had all hell break loose against me.People you love will speak against you not the other way around.I decided that I was going to bridle my tongue and it ripped my heart right out.When you feel like your heart has been through a meat grinder thats some hurt! I went to a church where the power of God was falling and I knelt down in front of the church totally broken and the pastor who has a gift of discernment said that there was virtue coming out of me and he had everyone lay their hands on me.That was so awesome!I never had anything like that happen to me.Now I welcome the hurt because I know its producing something in me. I can't explain to you all the hell I went through during those months of holding my peace but it was well worth it!!!

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Christinyou Jan 21, 2006

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen. My first choice is to believe what God says about His Son, Jesus Christ, and Him being our only Life.Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.There is one central theme in perfection and that is Jesus Christ and His life in us, as a birthed child of the Father, our final conclusion and work as a Christian is that we become completely enveloped in the Father Hood of God. The true Nature of Christ is in the Fathers Seed, and our true nature is in the Seed of Christ that the Father has birthed in every believer, just like the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary the Life of Christ, The Holy Spirit has conceived in each believer the Perfect of the Father. We died with Christ, and were sealed By the Holy Spirit into Christ just as He Sealed Christ in to Mary, and she gave birth to Jesus. So also us, The Holy Spirit by birth has sealed Christ into every believer.We have been made perfect in Christ and all we need do is renew our minds to this perfection, Christ in us the Hope of Glory,1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him Glory in the Lord.Christ is our Glory and He that is Born Again can only Glory in the perfection that Christ in us is becoming as we KNOW these truths in our Mind and KNOW that we have the Mind of Christ and are working out our salvation with fear and trembling unto a perfect man in Christ. We can do nothing even as Christ; Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. May we seek The will of Christ in us as He did the Father. In every thing we do let us allow Him to come forth as Christ is. Each one different but the same Mind of Christ being changed from Glory to Glory as diverse as the petals of a flower, as dears son's and daughter's of our Father. PERFECTIONIn Christ: Phillip

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Graftedbranc Feb 1, 2006

I Like this portion in "Chystallization-Study of the Epistle of James"I removed this post because the issue of the differneces between James and the rest of the New testament are controversial and have been discussed in other forums. I don't want to re-issue this controversyIf any are interested this whole treatment can be found at:http://www.ministrybooks.org/high-peak.cfmGraftedbranch

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claydough Feb 12, 2006

God never gave a command in scripture that was impossible to keep. several times in the gospels christ commands those who receive forgiveness for their sin, to sin no more. that means that it is a possiblity to live with out sin. i cannot speak for you but when I got saved i became 2 cor 5:17. a new creation, old things have passed away all things have become new. James it says to him that knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. also 1 john 2:1 says these things i write to you that you sin not. and note the nedt part of that verse. IT SAYS BUT IF, IF, IF, IF. The word if is conditional, that is you can or you can't do something. the verse does not say when, but rather if. and if the correct word is if, then sin must have the upper hand, but then that is not true, for we know that God is greater than all others.

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Compton Feb 12, 2006

There is some straw in James, but not all the points of this book are straw. To decide what is straw and what is not straw needs a top discernment.So this is what Witness Lee teaches as the "high peak of the divine revelation?" While James does seem to emphasize different aspects of the Gospel compared to Paul's portrayal, it is rash to assume that faith and works can't be harmonized. Critiquing James epistle as straw (partially) because it offers contrast to Pauls' epistles is like questioning the bass clef of a Bach Fugue because it's different then the treble clef. The two lines may be moving in different directions at times, but they do not produce dissonance or discordance...only a richer harmony that unifies the whole composition into something more profound then just the melodic themes we like to hum. To continue the analogy... music appreciation and theory takes a lifetime of work...why would we expect to judge scripture any faster? If there is something we don't understand about scripture, the straw is in our ears...not in the text. (Maybe that's why Paul calls them "itching ears".;-)) Just my 2 cents on this "controversy."MC

sermonindex Feb 12, 2006

Perfect is relative in the sense that a new born child may be perfect while still needing daily improvement and growth.Ron,I am not trying to attack this simple word picture that you quoted but really how is a child "perfect"? We all have faults even in our physical bodies and minds, we are definetly subject to our enviroment in some extent to our "condition"?

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MrBillPro Feb 12, 2006

I know man was created in the image of God and are all born sinful as a result of the sin of Adam,we are all born fully sinful there is no moralgood in us. :-?

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MrBillPro Feb 12, 2006

Rebecca5 wrote:Im one of the few who believe that christians can live without sin.Yes, I can testify to that :-P Just kidding folks.No child of God will live a sin-proof life until after they die and leave this "body of death,For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7). Jesus was not sin-proof but sinless. If He were incapable of sinning while living in his body upon the earth, then the temptations that He overcame were not temptations at all. Jesus truly had to be able to sin in order to overcome sin. Otherwise, all the temptations would have been a lie and Jesus would have been part of that lie.

sermonindex Feb 12, 2006

Rebecca5 wrote:Im one of the few who believe that christians can live without sin.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever responds:For years I tried to walk the line- to always do good, to treat my brother as myself, to never lie, never cheat, never commit adultery, etc. etc. etc.. Then, I read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and my world turned upside down.Christ brought to life the true meaning of the 10th Commandment when he gave the Sermon on the Mount. Up until that very day, men were not aware that just looking at another woman in lust made them just as guilty as committing the very act of adultery. Jesus Christ explained to them how it had been from the beginning, only man could never see it. Being angry at our brother makes us just as guilty as murder (lying in wait and killing another).No one could ever meet this standard except Jesus Christ. We are all born with the sin nature that we have inherited from Adam. Christ is the only one who was able to keep the standard. We are saved based upon our relationship to HIM, and our position in HIM.Christ received His blood from the Holy Spirit, and we all received our blood from our fathers, who are in the line of Adam. In paternity suits, the fathers blood is always the determining factor in determining the paternity of the newborn. Christ's blood came from up on high, by the Holy Spirit. That is why He never sinned, even though he was tempted as you and I are daily!God bless,Steverp.s If we were all able to keep the 10th Commandment, we would most certainly not break the other 9!!Matthew 5:20-41 "20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24. Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."P.S.S. Sorry if this is a little long, I just wanted to document Christ's Words.

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jimp Feb 12, 2006

i do not have the faintest idea. i have never had it or witnessed it in reality in 42 years of "faithful" service.jimp

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jimbob Feb 12, 2006

jimp wrote:i do not have the faintest idea. i have never had it or witnessed it in reality in 42 years of "faithful" service.jimpBINGO! An honest answer and an honest self evaluation. If we say that we have no sin,we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

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jubilee Feb 13, 2006

It is true that in ourselves there is no perfection but in I Cor. 1:30 it say " of God are ye in Christ Jesus". God has placed us in His Son and we are the righteousness of God in Him. All our righteousness is as filthy rags but God doesn't view us that way, thank God, but through the finished work of Jesus Christ. When we went down into that watery grave we came up to walk in newness of life. Old things are passed away and all things are new, so reckon yourself to be dead in Christ. I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. We are a new creation and that is the way God views us, in His son. jubilee