Remember that Revelation was written to an uneducated people. Generally peasants and slaves, it was written for common man...not meant to be complicated. Everything should be taken literally inless it specifically says not to (and it does a few times).
Welcome to SI jceinrichs, if you would, please take the time to give us an introduction of yourself in the Welcome & Intro forum.Concerning your post here, I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that the seven churches were uneducated. Also, I'm wondering how the notion that they were peasants and slaves fits in with this verse concerning the Laodicean church? because thou sayest--I am rich, and have grown rich, and have need of nothing, and hast not known that thou art the wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,(Rev 3:17)In Christ,Ron
Welcome jcheinrichs.Hope you'll enjoy posting more here and benefit in some way. I don't know what your views are on the Revelation but I know what you are saying.You'll definitely benefit from reading all the Classic Authors offered on the Main Site.I understand what you are saying and yes, the whole N.T. was written that way ... in the Koine Greek (the "street language" of that day) instead of the higher dialect, Hellenistic.I'm not into anything but "simple" anymore also.After 30 years of hanging with folks who love deep debate, the Lord showed me the same thing ... "Come unto Me as a little child" ... so that must mean a little child can understand the N.T.. I Do believe that. Besides Jn. 16:13 added.The "you say you are rich", does not have to be financially (and more than likely isn't, for the most part) ... but in these last days ... I also see where there are large numbers who believe they "have it" spiritually or because of the 'Mega-size' of their Church, but in "spiritual reality", they have nothing, they are "blind".Sort of like, also ... "all talk and no action", where the "blindness" would come in. Why would ya put eye salve into a rich person's eyes ?They seem to be spiritually blind, if we look at the whole of the warning, etc. to them.Blessed are the Poor in spirit.Anyhow ... Welcome and Enjoy the Classics offered here.
jcheinrichs' Remember that Revelation was written to an uneducated people. Generally peasants and slaves, it was written for common man...not meant to be complicated. Everything should be taken literally inless it specifically says not to (and it does a few times).This sounds like a good idea except for the fact that the beginning of revelation says this is not the way to interpret the book.“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” (Rev. 1:1, KJVS)...where the word 'sign-ify' is a brilliant translation of the Greek word 'semainO' which literally means to 'communicate by signs'. In other words the opening words of the Revelation tell us that this book is full of 'non-literal' information.Ask yourself the question...Do I believe that Christ is literally holding seven stars?Do I believe that there are literally seven spirits before his throne?Do I believe that there is a literal lamb with seven literal eyes and seven literal horns?Do I believe in a literal beast which rises from the ocean?Do I believe in a literal 12000 from every tribe of Israel with Dan omitted?I will be interested to hear your answers. :-)
Awww Ron, already ? on the poor new guy/gal's first post ?I wanted to hear his/her view on eschatology first. I thought we're supposed to say 'Welcome' first and then nail their posts. :lol: Oh well, Hope they come back, cuz now you and I are both made curious about this poor new posters views.Come on back to sēmainō jcheinrichs', that you're not mad at us.God Bless all too. John 16:13
Come unto Me as a little child" ... so that must mean a little child can understand the N.T.. I Do believe that.I don't believe that. The New Testament is deep, It is often complex, It is full of many things which as Peter says, "Are hard to understand which the unlearned twist as they do the rest of scripture.But the point of comming to the Lord as a "Little child" is to come not with a simplistic view, but to come simply to recieve from Him what we have no capicity in and of ourselves to obtain.To understand the New Testament requires the very Spirit who inspired them. Our attitude should be as a little child toward the Lord in crying to Him to open up His Word, "that the eyes of our hearts might be enlightened, that we might know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritence in the Saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."To come to the Bible simply does not mean simplistically. It means with a simple heart attitude toward the Lord to open up His Word and to enable us to "comprehend with all the saints what is the length, breadth, hight, and depth and to know the knowlege surpassing Love of Christ."A child like attitude comes to the Bible and crys, "Lord, I don't understand, I don't see this. Lord, show me. Enlighten me, enable me to see it"."The soulish man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are dicerned spiritually"A little child cannot understand the Bible. But a new born babe in Christ who has been regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit can. To reduce the Bible to the level of children is to rob it of it's depth, it's intrinsic meaning, and it's genuine complexity. A child can understand "God made everything and loves us." But a child cannot understand creation, the fall, the Old testament types, shadows, figures, and significance. A Child cannot understand redemption, sanctification, regeneration, and God's eternal Purpose. A child cannot understand incarnation, human living, suffering, death and resurrection in it intrinsic meaning. A child cannout understand the Hidden Manna in the Golden Pot in the Ark in the Holy of Holies. We need the Spirit for this.It is the fallacy of many modern translations who believe if they can just make the language simple enough then people can understand it. But they cut off the fine edges, lose the signifigance and depth of meaning and fail to recognize that no matter how much you dumb down the Bible, It requres the Spirit's enlightment to understand it and that a babe with the Spirit can understand complex things and enter into it's depths.In the end we all must come as a little child confessing that unless the Lord show us, we have no ability to understand. No matter our training, our degrees, our standing among men, we all must recieve from the Lord.But to come simplistically believeing that" I can understand it because it is simple" is to take the opposite position and to assert our ability to know and comprehend the Bible without the Lord. It is to reduce the revelation of the Bible to our level and to deny the need for the Spirit's enlightment by grace to bring us into it's wonders and depths.Graftedbranch
I thought we're supposed to say 'Welcome' first and then nail their posts.MeAgain, you made me chuckle! Diane
Graftedbranc, Hi !Can a little child claim this Scripture verse and be used of God to speak or learn ?Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into All truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. Looking forward to your answer.Happy Hugs for everyone. And hopefully more chuckles too :-D .A merry heart maketh good like a medicine, and I sure need some 'medicating' :-P . 8-)
Can a little child claim this Scripture verse and be used of God to speak or learn ?A little child who is regenerated and has the Spirit within him can claim anything. The issue is not age but redemption and regeneration.When He the Spirit of Truth comes" refers to regeneration and the indwelling Spirit.Can a little child be regenerated? Of course. There is no age limit. But the issue is not age but our condition and standing and whether or not we are regenerated.The issue is that the Bible is not simple but complex and deep. And only by the Spirit can we enter into it's meaning. Surely the Lord gives His revelation according to our capacity. And an 8 year old will not be recieving revelation on many things. But the Lord Himself at age 12 sat among the scholars and teachers in the Temple and amazed them by his wisdom and understanding.If it were simple, there would have been no amazement. If by nature a child could understand it, then it would be nothing amazing about the Lord Jesus expounding the scriptures among the scribes and priests.The Bible has milk for the "babes in Christ' but it also has solid food for those who are mature. To reduce everything to the level of milk is to rob us of the solid food.Graftedbranch
I've seen that people frequently quote Peter's comments about Paul's "teachings".If you read 2 Peter 3, the 'Whole' Chapter CLOSELY, you'll see that Peter is talking about Eschatology and is saying that folks were even messing with Paul's teaching on Eschatology ... (vs 16 "speaking in them of these things")Saying in the Greek that they .. "the 'unstable' .. "twist or pervert" .. unto their own destruction"The Lord's definition of coming to Him as a little child wouldn't "do" what Peter says folks "do to the Scriptures".A little child sits at the Feet of their Father, not having their own "ideas on things" and just listens as they read together.And if they're stumped on something, they Ask the Father, what does this mean ?If "brains" were needed, then you've cut off a 40 year old retarded man or woman.It's "brains" that "wrest" the Scriptures, more times than not.I gotta go now, it's Recess time, the bell rang and we got a new set of swings outside for me to play on.Bye Bye for now :-D Edited to add, you said """Surely the Lord gives His revelation according to our capacity. And an 8 year old will not be recieving revelation on many things."""Oh my, where do these thoughts come from.I'm sorry friend, but "consecration" is what He's looking for, nothing more, to fulfill John 16:13Samuel was how old ? And that was before what Christ has provided us by His Spirit alone.God BLESS !!!
A little child sits at the Feet of their Father, not having their own "ideas on things" and just listens as they read together.Brother, I believe if you read everything previous it would be obvious that what was intended is this very thing.A little child crys out to his Father to explain things to him. And as believers we as little children cry out to the Lord to explain these things to us.They are not simple things. But with the Lord's unveiling we can see them. It does not require great intellect. It requires spiritual understanding.Whether the context of Peter's words is eschatology or not, it is in fact the scriptures. And the beginning of this discussion was on the Book of Revelation which is eschatology in its finest.And the point which was being made was that we must approach the Book of revelation in a simplistic way. But it is not a simple book and it cannot be understand by taking a simplistic "wooden literalism". It is a book of signs with significance which reaches back to Genesis and the Prophets and requires to be accurate at least some understanding of Danial and many other books including Leviticus.The understanding of the book of Revelation requires first the Spirit, and along with the Spirit some diligent searching and study to acquire an understanding of the things signified.Graftedbranch
Imagine that, this person jcheinrichs, posts one post on here and we're on page 2 already. :-? Graftedbranch, You and I half agree with each other and that's good in my sight.Your one post leaned more toward the work of the Spirit and this last sentence a combo .. but I still have to ask ... IF, just IF, for any reason under the sun that we can come up with, a person is "unable" to, as you say ... """diligently search and study to acquire an understanding of the things signified."""" ........ then How would John 16:13 apply to them ? ...Say, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?Would their lack of having the Whole Book, which is needed to search and study, cause them to not be able to "count (decipher/compute) the number of the beast", and would thus be 'deceived' by him or take the 'mark', because they for whatever reason did not have the whole Bible in front of them or haven't been saved long enough to 'study', before the real hard parts of the end times begin ?Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. I am totally with you on, 'Study' to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Eschatology has been my utmost favorite study for 30 years. I "bug folks" with it, Not Intentionally ... and intensive Study was part of how I draw my conclusions .... a large part .... but it was the Holy Spirit that put the zeal into me to keep on a certain trail or path with it, to come to any conclusions on Eschatology.I just don't want anyone else out there to feel, that because they are young, mentally disabled, in a third world country, or what have you ,,, that the Lord Himself, through His Holy Spirit, will not guide them into ALL truth and EVEN show them things to come ... depending on or based on, their consecration/devotion to Him and 'His' Truth, only.jcheinrichs, needs to come back and explain his post ... I do agree that he/she needs to do that, but at the same time ... as this has progressed to where it is ... I think our minds need to be globally inclusive, and considerate of differing mental capacities, when we talk about "study" and The Revelation or revelations of any of God's truths.There is some alluding to/in Daniel, that what was "sealed" Will Be opened for the elect's understanding when the times come.I also bank on that and have experienced that, as things are being unveiled, with the who's who etc. of the last times.And, in the meantime, till it is no longer possible to, I study and then after my Bible is removed from my hands, I'll continue to trust John 16:13.Lord Bless and I really do appreciate you brother or sister.Love, Annie
Say, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?In the end we have to come back to the soverignity of God. There was a period in history for 1000 years or so when the scriptures were denied to the common man. We refer to this period as "the dark ages" and dark it was.But at a point in time God brought in the Light through primarily one man, Martin Luther who stood against the traditions of Rome and brought in the Light of Salvation by Grace through faith and brought the Light of the Scriptures to the common man.My son is a master of the hypothetical. Whatever you tell him, he will quickly come up with some hypothetical situation where what is said would not apply. But God is soverign and also just and will not hold us accountable to light which we don't have. But we have the Light. We have the full revelation of the Truth in the scriptures and we live in an age when they are readily availble to us and therefore we have more responsibility. To whom much is given, much is required.God has a goal and an economy which is to produce the Body of Christ. And He has given us the Spirit and the Word as our means. We can spend our days in speculating on what if and what about them or those people who haven't heard or don't have a bible or are under communist rule or in prison. But we have and we are responsible to God for what we have and what is given.God is soverign and God has His elect. And He brings the gospel to them and they believe into Him and He gives Light and Life and His Word. And if we stand and say, what about, what about, He may just pass us by and go to someone else.I might add that the church in China is stong and flurishing and they welcome and relish any portion of the Bible or ministry they can get their hands on.Graftedbranch
Edited to add, you said """Surely the Lord gives His revelation according to our capacity. And an 8 year old will not be recieving revelation on many things."""You must know some 8 year olds I don't. But few I have known can sit and discuss the "deep things of God". Most can't sit and discuss anything for more than 2 or three minutes.What is this? God is after consecration, but consecration based in revelation. Cain had consecration but Abel had revelation. Growth in Life and depth of understanding comes through many years of dealings with God and Light in the scriptures. We can be born of God in an instant but to be matured in Life requres day by day of contacting the Lord, calling on Him, feeding on Him in His word and the experiences of the Cross in our day to day living.We can concecrate ourselves but on what basis? Unless we have the revelation of the truth, unless we see our union with Christ in His death and resurrection. Unless we have the knowlege that "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit' and know that He is in us and we are in Him. What is our concecration? A commitment to do what we think is right? Unless we are renewed in our concepts we will searve God not according to His will but according to our natural concepts of right and wrong.Graftedbranch
Graftedbranc wrote:
May it be so for us also, 'before' persecution comes.And my "hypothetical" is more prevalent than you may be considering at the moment GB.God richly Bless you.AnnieSay, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?I might add that the church in China is stong and flurishing and they welcome and relish any portion of the Bible or ministry they can get their hands on.Graftedbranch
And my "hypothetical" is more prevalent than you may be considering at the moment GB. :)I am just having a difficult time getting hold of the rational behind this. It seems as if the argument is that because everyone does not have a Bible, then the bible is not necessary.We might as well say that because everyone on the planet has not heard the gospel, then the gospel must not be necessary so why waste our time in missionary activity and preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth.The Gospel is necessary for salvation and the Bible is necessary for growth in Life. And to those who are not so privalidged to have access to Bible's are at a disadvantage, but God is still faithfull and gives them grace and they may enjoy more of the Lord than those who have shelf full of Bibles. But this does not invalidate the need for the Bible but rather it only shows God is faithful and meets us according to our need. But to say because of this that the Bible is not so necessary is to temp the Lord and despise His provision. Watchman Nee spent the last 20 years of his life in a Chinese Prison and was not allowed a Bible and not even allowed to pray outwardly. But the Word of Christ dwelt in him richly and He enjoyed the Lord Jesus as grace and his joy for 20 years. And all He had was the scripture in his memory to use as fuel for prayer and communion with Christ.Because some are imprisoned and cannot have contact with other members of the body of Christ shall we also conclude we don't need the body? We don't need to meet with the Church? We have no need for the fellowship of the Saints? This too would be preposterous.Graftedbranch
Gb. You've gone too far now with your judgments.You have totally twisted my words and it's becoming tiring and disturbing ... have you nothing better to do with your God Given Time ?Anyone who knows me, knows I push "STUDY" more than anything and had a thread here, now gone with the older ones, called "Teach a man to fish and he'll eat forever" or "A hunger for the Word".Your assertions are getting extremely ridiculous now and had nothing to do with what I had said. You seem to be just in the mood to quarrel with someone. To just circle the forum, looking for who to correct.No matter what is said at this point, you take it to extremes and accusations of things that have never entered my mind.You don't know me, others here do, as GrannieAnnie, and my hunger and devotion to His Word is all I've lived for or has kept me 'alive' for 30 yr.s.You seem to like debate just for the sake of debate ... and I see that as not healthy. And your 2 cents bundles are piling up in ways they shouldn't.How easy to sit behind a computer and preach to us instead of get out there and work for Him, yet not talk about it, or blow trumpets about our works.Have a fun day GB. I'm tired now.Annie
You have totally twisted my words and it's becoming tiring and disturbing ... have you nothing better to do with your God Given Time ?I appologize Annie.I got this thread confused with another one "Can the teachings of Jesus be compared to the writings of Paul"I was not responding to anything you said but to JFEdgar's posts on the other thread. He was contending that the Bible was not necessary. I got confused and thought your comments were with regard to the other thread and I was refering back to what I thought was the original statements which were by JFedgar.I thought our conversation had come out of that one. It is my mistake. Sorry if I misunderstood you. YOu will notice I said, "It seems as if the argument is that because everyone does not have a Bible, then the bible is not necessary."The argument I was refering to was the one originally posted in the other thread.Graftedbranch
No problem GB.I should come over to that thread and post against that belief also then :-) .Just that Title alone scared me Bro, so I've stayed off of it completely so far. I'm glad it was just a mistaken identity of postings, and that I can surely understand and empathise with.Peace brother.Love.Annie
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into All truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. If we put this passage into its original context“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” (John 16:12-16, KJVS)It becomes apparent that this word was spoken expressly to the apostles and is part of their unique commission and enabling. It is part of a package of promises with similar purpose... “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:26; 15:15, KJVS) John 14-16 are the same discourse and the themes carry through the three chapters. "guiding, teaching, and reminding" of all things are part of Christ's unique authorization of the Apostles.The fulfillment of this promise begins in “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:21-23, KJVS) Luke does not record the exact words of John but describes the same resurrection meeting “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” (Luke 24:45, KJVS)This unique "breathing upon them" and the words "receive the Holy Spirit" (receive now; aorist imperative) are not to be confused with the Spirit's coming 'into' all the believers at Pentecost.The promise 'he shall teach you all things' has been a precious promise to many an individual but that should not hide from us the fact that these words had a unique audience and a unique application. God has certainly promised to guide us and to speak to us but his guidance and his speaking do not have the special authority of the acts and words of the Apostles; God's words to 'me' must never be given the status of 'inspiration' that we accord to the scriptures and our doctrines must be based upon the scripture not our personal revelations.
This discussion is locked.
