Women need to find thier place, men too!

A bar?? You got to be backslidden to enjoy a bar scene anyway. What I have read she has no right to divorce her husband unless hes committed adultrey. She lost all her rights if & when she went to the cross! As a pastor when I counsel others the first question I ask is about a couples devotional life. Are you in prayer everyday seeking the face of God? Are you in the Word everyday? And if the answers are NO which they normally are if they have troubles... that IS THEIR PROBLEM!! They have no relationship with God. I have never found someone HOT for Christ and their marriage in trouble. Theres been more books written about marriage in the last 40 years than in history. I know I'm being straight forward but we dance to much in church anymore.

brent, thats what i always felt too and i'm single. So, when i 'date' or get to know someone, first thing i'm wondering about is how is this person's devotional life.... What would you consider as a 2nd and 3rd question in this scenario? I believe singles can apply this in their relationships to avoid potential problems.thanks,-j

lovejt,If they're in the Word and prayer daily really seeking God theres really no other questions, because if they're doing this then my 3rd question would be: are you witnessing?? But again if their seeking God then they should have a natuaral desire to win the lost. Just listen what they want to talk about the most and that will tell you volumes!! If Jesus is their life then you will hear it. Just look for the FIRE!! Fire is self-evident.

Thanks Brent! Any extra advice can only help. :) I love what you said below. >I have never found someone HOT for Christ and their marriage in trouble. Amen!-j

I think Loveslave has some very good points. Also the others.The difficulty with marriage is both come into it expecting the other one to make them happy. And when they soon discover that their spouse is not the Angel of God but the Cross of Christ, then trouble begins.Two fallen self centered people will not find the bliss they expected. The wife does not submit and the husband does not love His wife as Christ loved the Church.The reason marriages fail today is on two accounts. In the old days morality was still a big factor and there was an element of shame in failed marriages. And this kept many miserable couples together despite their unhappyness.Today this restraint is all but gone. And so as soon as the marriage ceases to be the bed of bliss they go their way. But whether we take the moral way or the modern way, the problem is still not solved.But the anwer is in taking the Cross. That is allowing God to use your spouse no matter what they are like to be an instrument of death to your self life. And by learing to turn to the Lord and apply the Cross then we live in resurrection Life and the Love of Christ becomes the reality in our marriage.Over time two people who love Christ and take the cross and cease to view the other as their means of satisfaction become united not only in spirit but become one souled. There is a reality and beauty of Christ between them which others see and admire. The successful marriage is one that flows from the Spirit of Christ. And this comes only through the experience and application of the Cross.Graftedbranch

I would also add that as long as a man demands submission and says, "I would love her if she would only submit" He will never get what he wants. If she is strong willed, she will reject him and rebel. If she is weak willed she may become outwardly submissive but inwardly she is miserable (and probably secretly plotting his demise). Either way he does not have what he wants.But if he finds his satifaction in Christ alone then He can love his wife no matter if she is stong willed or weak sumissive or rebellious.And on the same score as long as a woman says, "I would submit if he only loved me like he should" she will never find satisfaction.We must accept the spouse Our Lord has given us and take the cross to our Self. Then we can experience Christ as our satisfaction and we will find over time that we are spontaniously loveing and she is spontaniously submitting out of Life and not out of compulsion.The husband will cease demanding and the wife will stop manipulating to make him the way she thinks he should be. There will be the Reality of Christ and the sweet aroma of His resurrection life in their marriage.I knew one brother who had attended a certian bible school and he was always having trouble with his wife not submitting. And he said, "I don't understand her. When we first married we went through the Bible snd studied all the verses which show a woman's role."But I asked him. "when did you do a study of the husbands role in loving his wife? He said, "no, we didn't do that. The commands to the wife are not written to him for the husband to use to gain her submission. They are written to her. And the Scritpures pertaining to the husband are written to him. There is not a verse in the Bible which says, "Husbands, make your wives submit" or 'wives, have your husband love you as Christ loved the Church"Graftedbranch

"Believe it or not but men turn to men because the role to submit is found."I disagree with that statement, and I wonder if the writer is speaking from experience or hearsay? I can tell you from having spoken with formerly gay individuals, that THAT is NOT the reason. SORRY. I am reluctant to even address this thread, b/c I don't want to fan the flames of contempt. So, I will attempt to be as gentle as I can, under the circumstances. Please forgive me if I am not successful. I hear too many times of well-meaning "christian" counsel that tells women that they are absolutely under no circumstances, except adultery, of course, to leave their home/husband. They tell me that there is NO reason that the Lord is going to accept, for her to leave. Why, then did the apostle even address the SEPERATION from the husband, for a time? I wonder how many of these ppl have ever lived in a situation where the woman was being abused? Where the children are being abused and the woman is afraid to even attempt to speak to anyone in the church for fear they will be told that they are just not "LOVING" their man enough? I have a friend, now, who is in a similar situation to what I have described. Her church friends are telling her that she needs to just submit more. THEY do not seem to hear her when she tells them she is being abused. Many times it is possible to hide the marks, btw.I realize that there are always those who will look for ANY reason to run. That's not what I'm talking about. I personally stayed in a marriage with a man who was a sociopath, abusive, and very nearly convinced me that *I* was the insane one. I stayed through the illnesses from the stress, I stayed through the periods of my hair falling out from being under attack nonstop. I barely made it out alive. Was I wrong to refuse to submit MORE???? Perhaps I was. I am not nor was I then, a superhuman, OR a supersaint. I have done the best I knew how, to do what I read in the Word. I stayed there a lot longer than many would have. BUT God is not going to comdemn me for saving my life. I have no problem with being a martyr, but women are NOT called to die for their husbands.

That's not what I'm talking about. I personally stayed in a marriage with a man who was a sociopath, abusive, and very nearly convinced me that *I* was the insane one. I stayed through the illnesses from the stress, I stayed through the periods of my hair falling out from being under attack nonstop. I barely made it out alive.Sister, I believe you are correct. There is provision made in the New Testament for extenuating circomstance. Even among believers who separate "but let them remain unmarried or be reconciled to their spouse"..But provision is also made conserning those who believe and are married to unbelievers. "Let them depart for the believer is not bound in such circomstances". And a husband who habitually mentally and physically abuses his wife and children shows little evidince of being a genuine believer.What is needed in all such circomstances is a close walk with the Lord, and being sensitive to His leading together with much prayer and fellowship with those who know Christ. Not the legalists who are ready to impose their legalism. But there is a time when one should remove herself from such abusive circomstances. The Lord knows our frame that we are dust.Those men who make it their practice to speak often of men's dominance and right to control and rule over their wives are rarely Living Christ. And even though their wives may be outwardly submissive to them, inwardly there is little affection. They serve their husbands out of fear and servitude believeing this is what they "are supposed to do" because that is what their "church" tells them. These men are living their strong moralistic opinions and know nothing of the Cross and the life of Christ.Graftedbranch

Loveslave wrote:Men are to be the priest of his household, that is he serves his wife, providing his wife honours him thru submission. Once this is recognized and fought for, such marriages tho rare in North America are relished and enjoyed.According to the 2000 Census, just 26% of all families can be labeled as a nuclear family. And based on that starting point, how many men, in those nuclear families, practice according to the Scriptures their priestly duties? So you are correct, it is truly a rare thing indeed.In ChristJeff

Brother GB wrote:Over time two people who love Christ and take the cross and cease to view the other as their means of satisfaction become united not only in spirit but become one souled. There is a reality and beauty of Christ between them which others see and admire. This is a spiritual precept that speaks of the Seed bore by the woman. Genesis 3:15Everything you have written is very good. In ChristJeff

What do we do with these verses?Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sakeRom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. None of us wants to suffer, right? Did Christ want to suffer? In His suffering, what did He accomplish for those that believe in Him? How hard was it for Christ to see His own death? The cup He had to drink drink in the garden with all our sins in that cup. Just think of it every sin in the world was in that cup, I was in that cup. The Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world. Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.That is why we can say we were truly crucified with Christ and it no longer us who life but Christ the Lamb who live in us and gave Himself for us because He loved us. Then like the thief on the Cross that believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he was with Him in Paradise. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Not only was the thief crucified next to Christ but he was crucified with Him on The Cross of Christ, the King of the Jews, Jesus placed the thief in Paradise with Him, just like Jesus has placed us in the Heavenlies with Him already, and He will come again and bring us to Himself, whether we live or die so shall we all be with the Lord and in Him and Him in us forever, Amen.May we see Christ in each other because we see Christ in ourselves. A spouse should see not only Christ in him or herself but also in their mate. It is very hard to argue with Jesus Christ. Who really matters? Christ or our petty needs that we think our mate is supposed to fulfill for us, wrong. Let us love as Christ loves us, but most of all let us love because of Christ in the person or the capacity to have Christ in a person. Saved or to be saved by the Love of Christ and His Cross. In Christ: Phillip

Loveslave, Earlier you mentioned some possible explainations for sinful choices - abortion, homosexual, etc. Perhaps those influences - like Women's Lib may have an effect in facilitating wrong choices, but I feel that the real reasons go much deeper - like right into the person's own heart. Here are some testimonials of those whom God has set free from a homosexual past. I think that they themselves help us to understand what influenced their choices in the past. Exodus - testimonialsAlso regarding abuse, and being willing to "suffer" needs to be futher thought through. We are called to suffer for the sake of Christ, but not ENABLE the sinner to continue in his destructive pattern. That is not love, and doesn't help the sinner see the need to repent! There is a time for one to remove themselves from the abuser. This topic is far to big to cover here, but it it worth persuing. For now, I'll just share this: I know a lady who was being abused. She had no money, was not "allowed" to use the car, etc etc. God saw her and took pity on her. He miraculously had someone GIVE her a car, someone else gave her money, and someone else gave her a home and a job in another place - all separate events, but at the same time. God himself removed her, and then worked in her life to restore her. The understanding of the word, "submit" is usually distorted. The Bible is far more egalitarian than our society, or the church (where it brings society's values into the church).Ephesians 5:21 says, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Then in the next verse it says, "Wives submit to your husbands." I believe that the same word, "submit" is used, but we have made it mean two different things. One expanation I heard: To submit is to yeild our rights for the sake of another - like Jesus washing the disciple's feet, like Mom getting up in the night to feed her newborn. It is to consider others better than ourselves. But others above ourselves. Always love. Christ submitted to mankind by giving his life. That did not mean that mankind had authority OVER him. I believe that godly submission has nothing to do with hierachy - anyone being above another. I think it is clear in scripture that no one is to assert themselves over another in any way. On the other hand, no one is to surrender themselves UNDER another person - in that that person replaces the role of Christ in their lives - trusting in man to be their protector, and provider. A woman is accoutable to Christ. In the Spirit, Christ is her authority. Therefore she can never use her "unsaved" husband as an excuse for not being all that Christ has called her to be. She cannot excuse her passive maladaptive behavior as her "calling to suffer". Whereas men have tended to dominate because they are stronger, there has also been the problem of women desiring to have someone over them - just like Israel wanted a king to RULE over them. The curse not only included pain in childbirth, and weeds, but also woman's craving to have man be her "knight in shining armor", and for man (the stronger) to rule over her. Those are just a few thoughts for now. Diane

Also regarding abuse, and being willing to "suffer" needs to be futher thought through. We are called to suffer for the sake of Christ, but not ENABLE the sinner to continue in his destructive pattern. That is not love, and doesn't help the sinner see the need to repent! There is a time for one to remove themselves from the abuser.Sister, not to suggest that one should remain in an abusive and dangerous situation but Christ suffered unjustly at the hands of sinners. And if we are one with Him we will experience the same things. "the servant is not above His Master. If thsy persecuted Me they will also persecute you.And we suffer daily with Christ in all kinds of things if we will take the cross to self and let the Lord use our circomstances to gain us and to form Himself within us.If instead of looking for a way out of the cross (as we naturally do) we turn to the Lord and thank Him for the situation and embrace His Cross, we will find the Spirit within us rejoicing in the midst of misunderstandings, abusive speaking, and much else and we will find an amazing ability to love the unlovable.But we must walk with the Lord and pay attention to the flow of Life within us. And there may come a time when the Lord says, "get out of there", when our attempts at loving are not flowing from Life and we have no peace (in our spirit) by remaining. Graftedbranch

Sister, not to suggest that one should remain in an abusive and dangerous situation but Christ suffered unjustly at the hands of sinners. Christ also understood God's timing and purpose. He kept himself out of the way in order to avoid a premature death. (His time was not yet) He escaped through a crowd when they tried to throw him over the cliff. Many times he kept away from his abusers. He did not fully disclose himself to them. Most important, he did not give anyone power over them. He did not play the "victim" role through dysfunctional relational patterns. That is the BIG difference that is worth examining. I was referring to a pathological "suffering" that is really called "enabling". This pattern tends to go down the generations - and so we have countless descendents who perpetuates the abusive set-up -whether perpetrator or victim. However, having said that, I add that simply by removing oneself does not correct anything in itself. The abused person must undergo considerable inner transformation and healing, and repentance from sinful patterns and thinking, or they will end up in another similar situation again where they enable the pattern to develop. We must understand the value of separation, of getting disentangled from pathological relational enmeshment – even if it is for a season only (ideally). Sometimes remaining in an abusive situation, though it may appear "noble" is a slow suicide - of soul, spirit, and body. I believe that the church, in its zeal to encourage outer transformation, has not grasped the psychological dynamics, and has even viewed those who wish to address it as "humanistic". This is tragic, and merely keeps a lot of people imprisoned in a superficial religious state of "righteousness" This also keeps the most needy people away from a healing, compassionate environment.All too often I have heard, "No one at my church understands what I'm going through." It is sad when empathy is replaced by finger pointing and religious busy-ness.I think that Alcoholics Anonymous has it right: An alcoholic responds best to one who has been there. (because they understand, and really know how to help) Of course we cannot be "disqualified" as a facilator of healing just because we haven't experienced someone's exact troubles, but we can all relate on one level: we are fallen sinnners who are very needy of divine mercy and love. We could very easily have been in anyone's shoes. And on that level we should be able to empathize. The most unloveable people are the ones who need love the most. Diane

Wow, Diane, you said a mouthful! I concur 100% w/ your statements re: enabling and the fact that the church is not altogether aware or prepared (many times) to address the inner healings that must-MUST-take place before th wounded person is able to begin to get out of the survival mode and regain some semblance of LIFE. Whom the Son has set free, IS free, indeed. I heard someone say a long time ago, that we are called to be Martyrs for CHRIST, NOT for our spouse. Even then, it's a whole different thing. I guess in my experience, it was a matter of the abuser setting themself up to be god, and anyTHING that didn't fall in line, was going to pay dearly. And about the AA understanding another drunk better than other ppl is right on the mark. I find that in many situations, it is SO unbelievably easy for us to throw a pat answer to ppl, when we really have NO IDEA what they are REALLY going through. I can't tell you what I would do in your place, if I've never been in your place. On the other hand, even if I have, I can only tell you what worked for me. Isn't this an interesting place that we've ended up, so far, as a result of "Women need to find their place...."?! Methinks that perhaps women ARE finding their place. OUT of the pit, and UP on the mountaintops, braving the winds of the world---with or without a mate beside them. Coz, really, guys, aren't we all pretty equally helpless when you put thing in perspective? Ants ALL pretty much look the SAME to me: tiny, black (or red) and, well, ant-ish. Thank GOD I lived long enough to find out that God actually DOES like women...abbie :-o

Methinks that perhaps women ARE finding their place. OUT of the pit, and UP on the mountaintops, braving the winds of the world.Might I add a few thoughts - see if you agree with this: Our place as women is the same place as Mary: at the feet of Jesus. In those days it was only the men who were mentored, never women. Mary should have been in the kitchen. But Jesus commended her for her desire to learn, even if it meant being in the "man's place". Mary was bold - rising to the mountain tops!with or without a mate beside themThis may sound brazen. But I believe that you are not implying a vindictive women's lib philosophy. I sense you saying that women can move ahead in their spiritual walk without requiring the hand of a mate. It is a solitary journey, married or not. I must admit that I have met far too many women who are not moving ahead with the Lord because they want to be "under" their husband. And their husband is not interested in spiritual things, church, etc. Their wives ungodly "submission" gives them both an easy out - like an exuse. Sadly, many women do not realize that they can move ahead, and that moving ahead with Christ will make them more submissive (in a godly sense), and stronger in their love for their husbands. Christ gave us glorious liberty in our hearts - freedom to be all that God called us to be. So, women, let us claim it. Diane

I believe that the church, in its zeal to encourage outer transformation, has not grasped the psychological dynamics, and has even viewed those who wish to address it as "humanistic". This is tragic, and merely keeps a lot of people imprisoned in a superficial religious state of "righteousness" This also keeps the most needy people away from a healing, compassionate environment.I don't believe the church, that is the mainstream church which we call christianity has every really preaced the cross in its purity and reality. It preaches it in a very shallow way.But the genuine takeing of the Cross is not to live a life of self denial in the sense of denying this or that thing for ourselvs. The Cross and self denial is just this, the denial of Self all together. That is we don't live by Self whether good self or bad self. We deny Self and live by Christ who is within us.Self denial is not denying ouselves this or that pleasure or this or that sin. It is just denying self altogether as our basis for living. It is livieng by Christ and enjoying Him as our indwelling Life.We think of Self denial in terms of maybe fasting and denying ourself some thing. This is not self denial. This is asceticism.We confuse biblical self denial and the cross with asceticism and this is the cause of much frustration in situations like this.Often times Self is what would tell us to do this or that difficult thing or remain in an abusive situation or not to speak or what have you. Whereas if we denied Self and lived by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, He might just be the One to lead us out or whatever. The issue is not asceticism, but rather the doing of the Will of God which the Spirit leads us in and we must deny our Soul life (Self) to live by Him.Graftedbranch