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Theology

Evolution proof?

sermonindex Dec 12, 2003

A couple of posters asked about the proof of evolution. Here are two things to consider.A. Domesticated dogs. All domesticated dogs are the descendents of Siberian wolves. From the tiny tea cup chiwowa (sp?) to the great dane and everything in between. This shows the plasticity of morphology of animals.B. Neoteny, meaning the retention of juvenile characteristics into adult hood. They say a picture is worth 1000 words. This link is worth many more. The picture of the juvenile chimpanzee looks just like a human. www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Neoteny_in_humans.htmThis may not be conclusive proof, but taken together these points put the burden on the person who denies evolution because they demonstrate that human evolution from primates is clearly possible.

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Nasher Dec 12, 2003

Try this:http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dasc/EATB00.HTM

sermonindex Dec 12, 2003

Nasher,Evolution at the Bar was written about 30 years ago and is hopelessly out of date. Much of the scientific evidence required to answer his questions has been produced since the book was published. Jake

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5nva Dec 12, 2003

Jake:Your points put no burden upon me, one who denies the foolishness of evolution.God created man in His own image. That my friend is enough for me, as I live by faith and trust in Gods word.I will not ask some questions that came into mind to refute evolution because I'm sure you have a very non-biblical and anti-Christian explantion.I will state once again to you, that how can you, being a professing Christian believe such non-sense as demonstrated here and in your homosexual beliefs.Mike

sermonindex Dec 12, 2003

Mike,Being a Christian does not require a person to reject evolution. Nor does it require us to view the Genesis story as literal. Being a Christian requires acceptance of God's grace through Jesus and nothing more. Mike, be careful in using words such as "foolishness." Jesus spoke against this.Jake

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Jason Dec 12, 2003

Jake, all you have proven is adaptation. No person will reject the fact of adaptation.The problem with the theory of evolution (remember, it is just a theory -- and a poor one) is that it says that animals actually evolve into OTHER ANIMALS. What you have shown above is that dogs "evolve" into different types of dogs, not that dogs can become another species.Secondly, evolution is impossible because of the simple fact that one species cannot mate with another and produce potent offspring. (Horses and donkeys can mate, but mules are sterile, for example.) In order for evolution to be correct, there would have to be the exact same change from one species to another in several animals of the same generation, at the same time, and in the same place. Otherwise, this newly developed species would simply die out because it cannot mate with another animal -- the egg will simply not receive sperm from another species. Science has yet to demonstrate that this can even happen.Thirdly, not even humanist scientists will take a stand for gradual evolution (as opposed to gradual adaptation, which you have shown above). The theory has developed into a "punctuated equilibrium" model that essentially has animals not evolving for thousands or millions of years and then basically a "warp" in which animals suddenly become a different species all at once. This is because there is no proof for gradual evolution -- they admit this. They therefore have, in order to place the theory in hypothetical grounds that cannot be scientifically disproven, proposed a theory that is so improbable it would be much more sensible to believe the Genesis account. They also have, in the punctuated equilibrium, posited that we are now in a non-evolving period -- meaning that we will not be able to get anything to evolve in a meaningful way at this period in time. This was done because science realized that it couldn't produce evolution in a laboratory (animals have anti-evolution safeguards in their genetics -- like the egg not taking sperm from another species), and they needed a way to explain why we can't witness evolution now. Brilliant move, but it takes evolution out of the realm of believability and demonstrates all the more how it is a religion of its own.Finally, evolution is an attack against everything Christianity must take for granted in order for Christ to be anything meaningful at all. First of all, if evolution is correct, there is no such thing as "sinful behavior," because we were not created in the image of God with his own commands on our hearts. Rather, we are the descendants of beasts, meaning that whatever we do (be it homosexuality, bestiality, murder, etc.) is simply a part of our nature -- something we naturally do and not inherently wrong. What is labeled "sin" is actually simple social convention, developed to protect the species at large. God and redemption are therefore ruled out.If you are to "believe" in Christ, perhaps you should believe what he said. Remember that he cited the Genesis account as literally true in the Gospels. Paul also assumes that the Genesis account was true. If you are to disagree with them, you do not believe Jesus, after all. Take your pick: disbelieve the Son of God, his apostles, and all the prophets; or disbelieve humanist scientists who are attempting to re-write history in order to remove their responsibility for sin. If you choose the second, have fun on this earth, for animals do not have eternal souls -- at least as far as science has found. In addition, if you choose the second, you reserve the right for yourself to be called "fool," not only by men, but by the Word of God both now and at the judgment."The fool has said in his heart, "NO! God."

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5nva Dec 12, 2003

Jake:'Becoming' a Christian requires nothing more than acceptance of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Being a Christian requires complete trust in God, His word and His ways.1 Cor. 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God..Eph. 5:15-17 - Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil.So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.Gal. 3:1 - You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.Luke 24:25 - And He said to them. O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken.I am not calling you foolish. I am calling the idea of man evolving from an ape foolish.Mike

sermonindex Dec 12, 2003

Mike,Here is an article based upon the book "Finding Darwin's God" (Darwin was not an atheist!) written by Kenneth Miller, a professing Christian and scientist. He answers your objections and questions far better than I ever could.www.brown.edu/Administration/Brown_Alumni_Magazine/00/11-99/features/darwin.html

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jouko Dec 13, 2003

Jake, I as opposed to you and the professor must be reading a different Bible and that includes a different Genesis. Take the creation out of the Bible and you have created Darwin's god. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed. Joh 3:21 But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God. jouko

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philologos Dec 13, 2003

Hi Jakeyou wrote:Here is an article based upon the book "Finding Darwin's God" (Darwin was not an atheist!) written by Kenneth Miller, a professing Christian and scientist. He answers your objections and questions far better than I ever could.I am not a scientist although I am fascinated by science. However, I am not intimidated by the experts and, although theer grasp of the details of the evidence is quite beyond my scope, I can follow their arguments and philosophical trends. I have read Miller's book and without getting into the nitty gritty I think he makes a fundamental mistake right at the beginning in his section of 'proofs'.Miller is a scientist but I wonder if he has ever thought about 'proofs' and 'rules of evidence'. He wants to make the point that science 'has proved evolution'. However there are different degrees and kinds of proof. For example, mathematical proof is the purest and most absolute. Not only can it be proved that the the square on the hypoteneuse is always equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides, it can be proved, absolutely, that it can never be otherwise. In this mathematics has proved something does exist and at the same time proved that something different cannot exist. For a logical mind this is a kind of earthly heaven, where everything behaves just as it should. ;-) It is not possible to imagine a right-angled triangle in which Pythagorus does not work. However, QED eliminates any need for faith.Then there is scientific proof which begins with a 'hunch' or hypothesis which is tested. When the hypothesis cannot be disproved by calculation or experimentation you have a theory. When it can be proved you have a law, but even if it can be proved, the law cannot guarantee that it holds in every imaginable situation. Nevertheless, in a closed system science can be satisfied with its 'proofs'. Although it can never prove that the opposite or different can 'not exist'. Most mathematicians slyly feel that scientific proof is inferior to mathematical proof. Scientific proof needs a system of scientific beliefs.Then we have forensic proof which is the kind of 'proof' that the courts demand. Here you can have majority verdicts, circumstantial evidence, and much incomplete evidence which is however sufficient to 'prove' to the jury that the accused is guilty. Most scientists would think that forensic proof is inferior to scientific proof. Most mathematicians would think that forensic 'proof' is a joke. Forensic proof demands a high degree of 'faith' or confidence in the witnesses.Miller takes circumstantial liklihoods, conjectures and extrapalations and says they 'prove' evolution scientifically. He has crossed from forensic proof to scientific proof and doesn't seem to realise what he has done. (A thorough going scientist will not accept a court's verdict as 'proof'.) He then claims that science has 'proved' evolution. Science can do no such thing, unless science can prove that something different was not the case. In order to 'prove evolution' science has to disprove that God created, and the proof should take place in a laboratory where it can be monitored by other scientists. A proof that says things could have happened in a certain way is not scientific proof; it is probability and circumstance. It might satisfy a court of law but it should never satisfy a scientist. It is a betrayal of scientific method and philosophy. When science has 'proved' that 'God did not create' our cosmos then we will have a 'scientific proof'. When mathematics has proved that God could not have created the cosmos then we will have our 'mathematical proof'.Until then all we have is forensic evidence which must rest heavily on the credibilty of the witnesses. This is forensic proof. As a general rule, :-D, I have found God to be somewhat more reliable than the scientists. I'm sticking with Genesis.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2003

PhilologosIn my initial post I say that I am not offering conclusive proof. But that the preponderance of evidence weighs on the side of evolution. Additionally,if you hold to a literal Genesis you have to reject things that are quite provable, such as radiological dating techniques that show animal fossils to be millions of years old.What I do show clearly with the two points put forth is that it is possible for an ape (a chipanzee) to evolve into a human. The plasticity of morphology is demonstrated by the diversity of dogs. The Neoteny photo show how closely a young chimpanzee resembles humans. Together these points make this evolution a real possibility.One thing that Miller also discusses and allows for that many scientists object to is that God acts in the here and now, and not just in the past. Many scientists reject this completely.Jake

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philologos Dec 15, 2003

Jakeyou wrote:Additionally,if you hold to a literal Genesis you have to reject things that are quite provable, such as radiological dating techniques that show animal fossils to be millions of years old.Not necessarily. Up until the 1950's most evangelicals were not 'young earthers'. They believed we have an old earth but a young human race. In addition, up until the early 1900's most evangelicals held to a 'gap theory', that it to say that Gen 1:1 is all we have revealed to us of the actual creation but that something happened in Gen 1:2. Literally it reads, and the earth became void and without formSince the writings of Whitcomb and Morris 'The Genesis Flood' many , if not most, evangelicals have settled for a young earth and have rejected the 'gap theory'.However, there are just a few of us dinosaurs left. :-D

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philologos Dec 15, 2003

JakeI didn't reply to your original posting but your more recent one has drawn my attention to it again.I have a reaction or two.A. your quote re 'mastiffs and chihuahuas' This shows the plasticity of morphology of animals. Or it may simply show the incalculable riches of the original gene pool in wolves/dogs.B. your quote Neoteny The picture of the juvenile chimpanzee looks just like a human. I have followed the link and seen the pictures of the juvenile chimpanzee. I am tempted to ask what part of the States you come from if the picture is exactly like the juveniles you are used to. ;-) We have some pretty odd juveniles over here too, but none that I would mistake for the juvenile chimpanzee in the illustration. ;-) In fact, the text to the link is much more moderate in its claims. You say ‘just like’ the text says ‘resembling’. Relatively rapid growth of the jaw gives juvenile chimps skull proportions resembling those of adult humans. I don’t mean to be patronising or frivolous, but if God had a good idea why shouldn’t He use it just as he wants to, in apes or humans? I understand, that we share lots of DNA characteristics with the cabbage, but I don’t know that anyone has suggested we have a common ancestor. Although, the more I think about it… ;-) Finally This may not be conclusive proof, but taken together these points put the burden on the person who denies evolution because they demonstrate that human evolution from primates is clearly possible. Surely in scientific debate the ‘burden of proof’ lies with the person who claims he has ‘proved’ something. I don’t think creationists think they have ‘proved’ creation. They believe it and regard the evidence as not incompatible with that belief. What they would like ‘evolutionists’ to do is admit that their system too is a ‘belief’ rather than a ‘scientific proof’. Evidence must be interpreted. The creationist knows that he is interpreting evidence; the evolutionist should be prepared to make the same admission.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2003

Philologos wrote:"In order to 'prove evolution' science has to disprove that God created, and the proof should take place in a laboratory where it can be monitored by other scientists."This is not correct. Evolution is the means by which God has created us. It is described in story format in Genesis, and my point is that the story format matches and supports the story line of evolution. The order of events is parallel. Life forms are described in ascending order of complexity. Events in Genesis have parallels in science. (Such as the Noah Ark story and the Out of Africa Theory both saying that all humans are the descendents of one small clan. Furthermore, do you actually believe that two of EVERY creature were on the Ark? This is completely impossible because not all creatures live in continguous areas of the earth, not to mention that the Ark would have had to be a couple of miles long in order to have enough space.)Jake

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philologos Dec 15, 2003

Jake wrote:Philologos wrote:"In order to 'prove evolution' science has to disprove that God created, and the proof should take place in a laboratory where it can be monitored by other scientists."This is not correct. Evolution is the means by which God has created us. More exactly, I should have said that 'atheistic evolution'. It is frequent claim of atheistic scientists that unaided evolution has proved that God does not exist. In the nature of things, other than in mathematical proofs, it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. The whole of 'Star Trek' is based on scientific possibility, but possibility does not prove actuality. The possibility of atheistic evolution cannot 'prove' the actuality of atheisitc evolution.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2003

Philologos wrote:"I am tempted to ask what part of the States you come from if the picture is exactly like the juveniles you are used to."I didn't say "exactly like". You must admit that there is a clear resemblence. Sans the facial hair and with slight facial modifications, this young chimpanzee would look very much like a human child. What the plasticity of morphology of dogs shows is that these modifications are a real possibility. Jake

sermonindex Dec 15, 2003

Genesis 1:9 "God said, 'Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that dry land may appear'" This is a reference to what scientists call "pangea" where all the continents were connected and the seas were one. What astounds me is that this happened long before people were around to make record of it. Thus, it is clear that the story of Genesis was given to the authors though somekind of "vision" process.Jake

sermonindex Dec 15, 2003

Philologos wrote:"and the earth became void and without form"This is true. Planets were formed from large gaseous clouds that condensed due to the force of gravity. In the initial stages they had no consistent or defined form, but were free flowing in shape.

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5nva Dec 15, 2003

Genesis 3:8-9 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God..Then the Lord God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"Clearly God spoke directly to Adam and Eve. I don't see any need for somekind of "vision" process. God spoke to them of which trees to eat of and not to eat of. Perhaps God spoke many things to them before their disobedience.One other thought is that Moses is the one that is usually believed to have written Genesis. God spoke to Moses many things and there is no indication that they were through a "vision" process.Mike

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InTheLight Dec 15, 2003

Here is a link to an article that sets forth a good argument detailing why theistic evolution is an oxymoron. It's worth a read.Theistic EvolutionMay God's grace be with you,Ron

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