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a struggling problem about God

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

hi i am andy 39 from uk..i have a problem that keeps bothering me..i am hoping u guys could help..basically it can be sumed up asif God is all knowing and knows my life from beginning to end..how can i not live what he as seen..hense i only have limited freewill for i can hardly not act out what God as seen..its got to the point where i am thinking about this even in veiw of judas..we know the o/t mentions a betrayer hense judas was stuck? he couldnt not fullfill what 1)God's planned/saw 2)he was created to do this,if not him SOMEONEandy

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

This in some ways became a stumbling block for me in my walk.It's like when someone watches a new movie and they already know the ending. Does it change the ending when that person brings you to the movies? Nope.God knows everything, He knew satan would rebel, God knows all. But He is also going to help you through life.Don't focus so much on the future. God has everything in control, He knows what He is doing. Just focus on your love for Him. That's the greatest and #1 thing that we are called to do. The greatest commandment 'Love God with all your soul,spirit,body, and strength' and likewise 'Love others as yourself.'I think the most greatest thing is God loves you and accepts you even though He knows in 15 mins your gonna sin. (example, not literal) God loves you despite the sin you committed in the past, present and FUTURE and He still loves you with an everlasting love. Everlasting, means it doesn't stop. Every second of every day, God loves you.So, I challenge you to focus on the Love of God instead the 'future'.

P
pottershands Jan 30, 2006

God entrusts us with more when we have shown ourselves trustworthy with what He has already given us. Don't overthink and get sidetracked on this issue. Does God want you to follow the guidelines laid out in His scripture? Yes, He does. Do you have to figure out how all the misteries of God work? No. You know God wants you to study His word, so do that. You know God wants you to obey His commandments, so do it. You know He wants you to fullfill the Great commission, so do that. Ask Him how it all worked later when you have arrived at His throne. You will be able to sleep soundly and move on with your Christian walk by being a faithful steward of the information He has laid out for you in His word. Hope that helps.Melissa

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

hi i am andy 39 from uk..i have a problem that keeps bothering me..i am hoping u guys could help..basically it can be sumed up as if God is all knowing and knows my life from beginning to end..how can i not live what he as seen..hense i only have limited freewill for i can hardly not act out what God as seen.You are correct in that we cannot live apart from what God has seen. God even sees what we do in secret (Matthew 6:6). its got to the point where i am thinking about this even in veiw of judas..we know the o/t mentions a betrayer hense judas was stuck? he couldnt not fullfill what 1)God's planned/saw 2)he was created to do this,if not him SOMEONEJudas was used by God for a specific purpose...that purpose was to betray Jesus. This betrayal would lead Jesus into the hands of the Jewish authorities and then into the hands of the Romans who would crucify him...leading to our salvation.Judas played a vital role in history. He was used by God for a special purpose, albeit not good in the end for Judas himself.I am remined of Psalm 115:3, "Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him."Also, we must remember that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses. God used the wickedness of both Pharaoh and Judas to accomplish his own will. Does this make sense? Is this fair? I think Romans 9 answers these questions:Romans 9: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?I hope this helps you in any way. I by no means have all the answers...I myself am still trying to come to a complete understanding. I do know that God is in control and that I belong to him. I take great comfort in these verses:Romans 828And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

I think the most greatest thing is God loves you and accepts you even though He knows in 15 mins your gonna sin.AMEN! Well said.

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

hi i will be clearer i find it unfair that God blames us for sining whens he already see it which makes us unable not to surely?..jay dont u have a problem that he used judas like that? i do..andy

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

and a ps if he knows why bother to pray can u change the out come no its catch 22? is praying saying God can have is mind changed therefore he wouldnt know the future right?

P
PreachParsly Jan 30, 2006

I don't believe God forces you to sin or anyone else. Knowing something will happen doesn't mean that you forced it. I can watch someone walk into a room and say, " I know for a fact that he/she will walk out of this room." I am not forcing them to walk out, I just know that they will. Ofcourse this is a feeble example compared to God's knowledge... There are some things that God seems to 'force' but he is not willing that any should perish. How many of you have kids? When (or if) you decided to have a child, did you not know they were going to do something wrong in their life? Surely you know that your kid will lie to you once in his/her life, yet you still had a desire to reprodce, correct? Maybe God had a similar desire?

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

God knows what "choices" we will make.Angels and humans have 100% Freewill.Some don't believe that, but that's what I see.We live second by second with 'choices' and those seconds turn into minutes and then hours, then days, and finally a "life" that is judged in the end, by what choices we've made.He's a fair God and wants our Love to be an act of freewill, and Love is an action ... and obedience is just one of the actions that Love produces. If you take Freewill out of the equation, it sure could get confusing.All His Best to you.me again

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

hi i guess i'm seeing this differently to you guys..my veiw is if God as seen it then ur going to do it right? who are you not to do what God as seen..how can it truely be freewill when ur doing what's already know ur do? it might be a kind of free will here on earth but its limited..does a actor have free will when he follows a script?..Gods Shakespeare and ur Laurence Oliver only difference is we dont know it..andy

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

jay dont u have a problem that he used judas like that? i do..andyI admit, it is hard. It is hard to imagine Judas not having any chance at salvation and being condemned to damnation even before he was born.I think I know what you are going through because I have experienced it before, in my case it was, "What is the purpose of prayer? Why pray for someone if God will just do whatever he wants to do anyway?"However, God does tell us to pray. He does not say, "Pray if you want to." He says, "Pray without ceasing." 1 Thessalonians 5:17Isaiah 55:8-9 says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. It is hard to understand, but we must realize that we are not God. God is a lot smarter than us and knows a lot more than we do. Also, going back to Romans 9, who are we to talk back to God? As some other brothers have mentioned, it is not our job to completely understand everything about God...we are called to believe in his son Jesus Christ and make disciples of all nations.In summary, it is good that you have questions. We all do. No person on this earth has a complete grasp of the soverenty and holiness of God, but we have faith that he is who is says he is...a God who is love. 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16.

P
PreachParsly Jan 30, 2006

To be honest I think it's foolish to charge God with being "unfair." He is not unfair but that is somewhat beside the point. He is the one who gave you a mind to think that something is "unfair." If (which He is not) God was unfair, what good would it do to rebel against Him or call Him names. He is going to judge everyone of us. Who, before standing in court, throws paperwads at the judge? No one who is in their right mind. I think when we try to blaim or accuse God of things it might possibly be pride or us not wanting to take responsibility.

P
PreachParsly Jan 30, 2006

Rom 9:20 .... O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay[?].....

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

hi i guess i'm seeing this differently to you guys..my veiw is if God as seen it then ur going to do it right? who are you not to do what God as seen..how can it truely be freewill when ur doing what's already know ur do? it might be a kind of free will here on earth but its limited..does a actor have free will when he follows a script?..Gods Shakespeare and ur Laurence Oliver only difference is we dont know it..andyAndy, you are a Calvinist who struggles with being a Calvinist. Not a bad thing at all. (Well, depends on who you ask. lol)Let me share with you were I am in my Calvinist walk:I grew up believing in complete Free-Will of man. I am a person who makes my own choices and I can chose to follow Christ or choose to reject him, but it all pointed back to ME and MY choice.Recently, I started reading Romans 9 and through the preaching of a Calvinist preacher on the radio, God opened my eyes to predesination and election.Also, this verse in John 6 has been stuck in my mind recently:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Now, if I can understand your problem, you are bothered by the fact that God might not "draw" everyone to Jesus (for example: Judas). By draw I mean, bring conviction of sins. Is this correct? If not, let me know...I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.My response to that is that God does not have to draw anyone to Jesus. We are all sinners who deserve to be punished for our sins. In fact, it is proof of God's amazing mercy and grace that any of us are forgiven for our sins!Let us never pray, "God give me what I deserve." Let us always pray, "God have mercy on me!"

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

hi just to be clear i am 39 saved at 15 i had read nicky cruz book but ive more or less backslidden from day 1..i think when u have no assurances of salvation u tend to ponder stuff maybe even get bitter..as far as being a calvinist i'm of two minds about that..when i did go to church its was a charismatic church,i also have a great interest in people like david wilkerson and recently jacob prasch books sermons etc,but also a great admiration for people like m.l.jones so that puts me in either camp right?lolandyps "Now, if I can understand your problem, you are bothered by the fact that God might not "draw" everyone to Jesus (for example: Judas). By draw I mean, bring conviction of sins. Is this correct? If not, let me know...I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.| yes iam bothered

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

jay u say "My response to that is that God does not have to draw anyone to Jesus. We are all sinners who deserve to be punished for our sins. In fact, it is proof of God's amazing mercy and grace that any of us are forgiven for our sins!Let us never pray, "God give me what I deserve." Let us always pray, "God have mercy on me!""that worries me more lol..thats like everything is stacked and if were lucky were picked if not tough.. that makes me think God why did u even bother to create all this.. wouldnt the ones not chosen be better off if u hadnt even bothered?i see now my problems is with the stage not the actor or the playwriteandy

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

Prayerbone,The most important thing for you is your relationship with God. If you have a desire to know God and live for him then you have assurance that he has called you and loves you very much.I see it this way,There are two people: Jim and John.Jim and John both are sinners who live for themselves and have no desire for God. They both live however they wish.One day, Jim and John are driving in a car. John the passenger turns on the radio to listen to music but while he is finding a station, he hears a preacher talking about salvation.John is quick to turn to another station but Jim stops him. Jim listens to the preacher talk about Heaven, Hell, salvation, faith and Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world. Jim really starts to wonder what all this is about and seeks more information. John on the other hand, is just wondering what happened to his friend Jim. "Come on Jim." he says, "You know that stuff isn't real."But Jim isn't so sure anymore.Now, this story is just an example of how some people hear the gospel message and respond...while others hear the exact same message and do not.I believe that God draws some people to him and does not draw others. Why? Only God knows that. I am sure that the reason provided is not suffient for you, but I believe it. As I mentioned before, God's ways are higher than ours. His understanding is greater than ours. The bible clearly says that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.I would encourage you to ask God yourself during some quiet prayer time. Pour out your heart to him and ask him all these questions. The bible says that if you draw near to God he will draw near to you.I pray that this has helped in any way.

C
CJaKfOrEsT Jan 30, 2006

Sorry this is so long, but I've got to admit that I agree with Josh here. The there comes a point that you have to just accept that God is God. The way He made this whole deal is acceptance first, understanding later.Consider also, that the whole point to life is relationship with Him, which is expressed through love for others. Choice exists, but for most of us, it needs a little redefining. Choice is about willing participation in God's plan. A big poblem with modern evangelism, is that it's tainted the statement "God has a plan for your life." Modern evangelism has painted that to imply the importance of the believer, as in "God needs you to get His work done". The emphasis is always on "His plan". It's a matter of, "Here's what's happening. You're either in or out."Consider the following hypothetical situation. God chooses for Person A to reevive the church, and for Person B to display His judgement on a nation: Person A grows up in a satanist family. He spends his lifetime manipulating people for power, and causing enemies to bicker until they've destroyed each other. He makes it his personal project to descredit the pastor of the local church, ruining every marriage and disbanding the church along the way. He joins the church, quickly rising to leadership, due to his "supernatural abilities" and spreads ever subtle heresies and successfully seduces the married women with subtle flattery, realising that their husbands have been starved of affection. His efforts lead to a church split. Half of those who leave are the result of the pastor buying into the man's lies, half again the result of hurts caused by lives lived in accordance to the teachings, while of those who remain, all but two are loving it, utterly besmitten by this seducer. The two that remain see the lies, and that leads them into their Bible, to search for truth (it's amazing how decption is one of the best catalysts for seeking the truth). The two begin to warn others, only to be heckled, and accused of being "devisive". As they warn, they discover each other, and begin to meet to pray. Then the unthinkable happens, the seducer is arrested by the Spirit of God in a "Damascus road" type experience. He repents and confesses to the pastor, and then dies in a car crash on his way home. The pastor now begins to meet with the "two" and as they study and pray together, truth begins to come forth in his preaching, as he weighs truth, long neglected. May are saved, and the church grows to ten times it's previous size, however not all in the same place, but several other churches are planted, mostly on the foreign field.Person B, on the other hand, grows up in a God fearing family. Early on in his life an angel appears to him, revealing God's purpose for him. The thought of this fears him, and so he seeks the counsel of other believers. He receives conflicting advice from different "christians", eventually settling on the angel being satan coming as an "angel of light" to deceive him. After all, God is a loving God, and any God who would judge a nation isn't loving in his book.Like many, the existance of God is successfully disproven in college, but still this strange vision from his youth haunts him. He decides to go on to become a peace activist. He goes to Africa and deciding to follow "Christ's example" he helps orphans by improving living conditions and providing education. One student shows promise, and so he takes him under his wing, ensuring that he takes up a peaceful ethic and doesn't fall for the notion of a "vengeful God", like his parents. The child grows and the kind man dies. However, with his death, aid to the childs village diminshes, and the children begin to starve again. The child is now a man, and he finds refuge in a Jihad training camp, where he is converted to Islam, and takes a special hatred to the "American who gave him false hope"'s nation. He moves to America, and begins a terrorist cell, which spwans and multiplies, until their are cells in every major city. Within a few years, there are dirty bombs going off everywhere, and the nation is left saking themselves, "Why has God forsaken us?"The question is, which one deserves hell? The Person A or Person B? The answer is simple, both. However, which one will be in heaven? One would assume only the first.Though the first dedicated his life to cruelty and distruction, and the second to benevolence, the first led to many being saved from hell, while the second led to many deaths. However, in the end, God had his way, regardless of the participant's actions.The first man entered into heaven in shame, while the second entered hell in glory.Sin is simply misused freedom. God judges the heart, based upon our works, in the light of his word. Judas had already rebeled against God several times in his life, by stealing money, and judging Christ's actions and motives. I believe that if he hadn't, he would have "dipped the sop" with tears in his eyes, as he knowingly fulfilled God's intended plan for his life.Salvation merely brings us into a right relationship with God. His plan for us never changes, it's now simply about whether we fulfill it, or He fulfils it through us. Never forget, salvation is never about us anyway.:-)

J
JaySaved Jan 30, 2006

Prayerbone,Please consider reading Romans 8 and 9 and take these questions to God in prayer. The Holy Spirit will guide you in all truth.God Bless.P.S. I can tell that God is really trying to show you something important, be strong in your faith. Humble yourself before God and he will lift you up.

sermonindex Jan 30, 2006

Your problem is right in the title of your thread.You're the one who going to choose Calvinism or not. That again, is your "choice".If you want to believe "if we're lucky we're picked" ... that's your choice .... and all I hear is "your problem with God".No, your problem is you're choosing to have a problem with God by choosing to believe in Election and Predestination. (No offense intended - honestly)I put it as simpley as I could in my last post ... but you'll take it or leave it ... again, "choice".That's why the first Commandment from Deuteronomy on is, "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul and strength".That's the first choice, after getting SAVED.God's "Foreknowledge" of what 'choices' you "will" make, have nothing whatsoever to do with what choices you "do" make.Love is the bottom line of all that God is and has done.He IS Love. He created us Because of love - to love us and to have that Love relationship with Him.His commands are because of His Loving protection of us and others.God IS Love, and all else is a by-product of that and without His Love in us, we cannot be saved. That is His goal in us, to make us like Him.You choose.You choose the belief system that fits your own 'desires'. Bottomline.But He loves you.

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