We have all sined, but must we continue to sin? From everything I read, the gospel speaks of empowerment. I can do all things... we are more than conquerors... greater is he that is in thee...we are told to mortify (kill) the flesh through the spirit.If we have killed the flesh, and we have been given power to triump over the enemy, why must we continue to sin?
Because although we are Justified, we are not yet Sanctified, that is a long slow process, some of which involves us falling and getting up again.Read Romans 6, 7 and 8. specifically 7:17-18, it takes a while to understand but the Holy Spirit will help.Each day we must kill the flesh cos he keeps getting up again (take up your cross DAILY. LUKE 9:23).
To bro, allhavesinned,First, let me say that I appreciate your response as many of our brothers seem unwilling to discuss such fundementals. The problem I have is that I have allways seen the Romans Chapters as Pauls argument for our need to allow christ to rule in our lives so that the "I" part of our sin nature becomes subjugated to his spirit.Is not the purpose of being made free from sin so that the sin nature that we were born into no longer dictates our actions?arghhh! Pray for me. I get so frustrated with my short comings.
It seems many Christians read chapter 7 of Romans and stay there, but Paul did not. Paul went on to Romans chapter 8. I say read Romans 6,7, and 8 until the breakthrough happens.Let me give you hope brother and say, no you do not have to sin! There is not a single sin in which you cannot find freedom from in Jesus Christ!
Bro. Lazurus,May God continue to use you to his Glory. What an encouragement your words are. I could never reconcile the scripture" I can do all things through christ who strengthens me" with the concept that this does not apply to my sin nature.Requesting the S.I members prayers and praying for you all.
One question for those out there that claim a sinless life is theoretically possible, who among you can actually claim they have stopped sinning? I have never met ANYONE yet that can claim that, yet the holiness folks claim it's possible. My church says this confession every Sunday," Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word,and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent." I would like the followers of Wesley and Finney to step up to the plate and testify that they do not need to make the above confession. Any takers to my challenge?
Quickened, I understand and relate to your frustration. I keep waiting for the day that I no longer have to deal with sin and this rotten flesh that weighs me down. What a burden... to have a heart that desires NOTHING more than to live for CHRIST, but to live with the stinking flesh that at any opportunity will rise up and take the vicotry for the sake of death and hell. There is not a time on this side of eternity that we will NOT sin, but SIN DOES NOT HAVE THE VICTORY IN CHRIST!!! It does not own us as it once did!!! Yes we sin, but we don't stay there. We were once slaves to sin, but now we are bondservants to CHRIST. The slave does not make a choice to be a salve, but a bondservant make the choice to give his life freely. The good news is that the spirit man CAN NOT sin!! There is a part of you that will NEVER sin. That is the HOLY SPIRIT that God has deposited within you!! The bad new is, the flesh will ALWAYS sin, if given the opportunity. Dying to self and living for Chirst is DAILY. It requries us to call upon Him day to day and moment to moment. We need to feed our spirit and starve the flesh. What ever we feed more will become stronger in us. We can have a strong spirit and dying flesh. Or fat flesh and a weak spirit. Which one will we feed today??
Here is a thread I started not to long ago. What is Christian Perfection?Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word,and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. So your church repents of the same thing every week? How can one say that have repented, when they have not stopped doing it? Repentance is not saying you are sorry. Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.
I would like the followers of Wesley and Finney to step up to the plate and testify that they do not need to make the above confession. Any takers to my challenge? I would not make that confession (every week) because I wouldn't want to lie and say I repent when I don't stop doing it.
They say this confession in the Anglican church, is it safe to assume you are Anglican, Jimbob? They might say it in other denominations, I'm just not aware of it.Just wanted to second what Jesse said. Amen. It doesn't end at Romans 7, but "thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" we move on into Romans 8.
Brother Lazarus wrote: It seems many Christians read chapter 7 of Romans and stay there, but Paul did not. Paul went on to Romans chapter 8. I say read Romans 6,7, and 8 until the breakthrough happens.That was going to be the starting point for my response to this topic. Andew Murray wrote a book called Absolute Surrender, and he deals with Romans 7 and 8 in one of the chapters.Notice in chapter 7 that the Spirit is not mentioned even once, but in chapter 8 He is mentioned several times. This is the key to victory. It is Christ IN us who is our hope of glory.If we confess our sins, God will forgive us and clease us from ALL unrighteousness. I believe that if God cannot keep me from all sin each and every day, then He is not God. Some christians believe that we have to sin every day. Why? If we walk in the Spirit, we don't have to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.I believe it's the devil who would have us believe we have to sin every day to keep us from walking in victory. God said to be perfect as He is perfect. If this were not possible, it would be totally unreasonable and unfair for God to say this. With God ALL things are possible!
So your church repents of the same thing every week? How can one say that have repented, when they have not stopped doing it? Repentance is not saying you are sorry. Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.I think thats a great point brother that we don't need to continue in willful sin. So a man can stop from sinning (fornication, uncleaness, adultery, stealing). But truly there are sins we commit everyday that we are not aware of. Here are a few examples.-If we do not give the full glory to God every second of our lifes then we are thieves, stealing the glory of God.-If we have any inclination to please self then we are selfish.But let's think about this, does God demand everything from yes, possibly yes. But is that possible on this side of eternity, no. We still have the flesh and are still being brough from glory to glory. We need to STOP SINNING in the sense of blatent willful sins, and submit also to the process of God working into us His character.. But as one brother said this is a long process and as we try to submit to the spirit daily, hourly the process continues.We aren't as perfect as Jesus was on the earth but surely that can be our goal, but I hate to burst any bubbles but that is not going to be ultimately possible because Jesus is unique and was SINLESS so that he could be the propiation for our sins. Or otherwise we could die for our own sins.Just some thoughts.
Is not the purpose of being made free from sin so that the sin nature that we were born into no longer dictates our actions?I like that answer.Before we are Christians, we are slaves to sin. We cannot choose NOT to sin. (Poor Grammer, great truth) When we become Christians, the Holy Spirit is given to us as a deposit of what is to come and he also leads us in all truth. In other words, we now can choose NOT to sin. I am not saying that we NEVER sin once we become Christians, but I am saying that we now are not slaves to our former sinful nature (i.e., the flesh)Paul says this about himself in Romans:Romans 7:18 "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[i.e., flesh] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."He then goes on to say why he is now different now that the Holy Spirit lives in him:Romans 7:24 "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."Paul still has the sinful nature living within him, but he does not live according to it. To sum this up:Nonbelievers only have a sinful nature. Romans 8:5a "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires;"Christians have a new nature, but the sinful nature remains: We now are not controlled by our sinful nature. Romans 8:5b "but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires."Does anyone deny that they still have a sinful nature that wars against their soul and is tempting them to do what is against God?But thanks be to God, we are not controlled by that nature...we have a new nature!!!I have more to say but little time, I am looking forward to all my brothers responses...God Bless.
Ron B said this in the What is Christian Perfection thread:Wesley made the point that the word 'perfect' is relative and not an absolute condition. Evangelical or Christian perfection is not to be confused with divine perfect, nor angelic perfection. Perfect is relative in the sense that a new born child may be perfect while still needing daily improvement and growth.I wrote this in another forumI think a lot of people are deceived in thinking that they can't really do what God has asked them unless they have been a Christian for X amount of years. This isn't true at all. Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Obeying the truth or the revelation of Jesus Christ that we have is how we are sanctified. We have to respond to the revelation of Jesus Christ that we have, and ofcourse the longer you are a Christian the more revelation you have so in turn the more responsibility you have. What we know to do that is "good" we have to do or we are in disobedience and rebellion, not holy and seperated from the world. What does everyone think?
I believe that if God cannot keep me from sin each and every day, then He is not God. Some christinas believe that we have to sin every day. I'm sorry but I think you're a bit off on this one. We have to recognize who we are in the light of Chirst. YES, YES, YES.... it is sooo true that the spirit of God within us is completly incapable of sinning!!!! BUT, our flesh is not capable of being Holy either. We have to be constantly aware of the inward battle between the spirit man and the flesh!! It will rage til the day we die!! If you think that one day you will wake up and not have to fight this battle, then you have believed a terrible deception!! A deception just as dangerous as the one that says we do not have victory over sin and death!!! No Child of God sould live in bondage of sin. You are not living for Christ if you are a slave to sin. We are victors in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean that we are incapable of sinning either!! I desire to live a completly sold-out life for Chirst. When the Holy spirit puts His finger on an area of my life that needs to change, I give it to Him. I surrender my will completly. That is true freedom! But that does not mean that I no longer sin. We probably all sinned before we left the house today. There are sins in our life that we don't even recognize as sin until the Holy spirit points them out to us!! Praise God for His mercy, forgivness, and Holy spirit that sets men free!!! He is kind and gentle and deals with us so wonderfully!! We have no idea the mercy and grace that are upon us every day. The reason we can't be compley, 100% sin-fee is because God is compassionate enough to give us a life time to chage from image to image and glory to glory. He can only set us free from the sin that WE GIVE HIM!!! And we can only GIVE them to Him, if He reveals them to us first!! NO ONE could stand if He counted our inquities... not even the Paul from Romans 8!
quote: by TaKa Some christians believe that we have to sin every day. Why? If we walk in the Spirit, we don't have to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.Thank you all for your patience and input on this matter as I'm sure it has been discussed prior to this. The thing is that I have just in the last 5 years began to (cautiously) venture outside of my holiness pentecostal beginings in the hope that I might "prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" I have failed God many times but each time I have risen with the hope and prayer that God would move me beyond the point of my failure, and he has done just that but I seem to find new ways to fall short.Is prefection to lofty a goal, even with his spirit dwelling inside me?I think I'll go look at preacherparsly's thread on christian perfection.
I see two great lies when it comes to this subject:1) A Christian CANNOT sin2) A Christian CANNOT live without sinBoth are completely wrong.A Christian certainly CAN sin, but certainly does not HAVE to sin. No temptation over takes us except that which is common to man, but when we are tempted God ALWAYS provides a way out, and NEVER puts more on us then we are able to bear.So Holiness is not teaching that a Christian CANNOT sin, but rather is the biblical teaching that a Christian doesn't HAVE to sin.If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. I heard Leonard Ravenhill say in an audio I listened to recently, "It's not the inability to sin. It's in ability not to sin."And as Duncan Campbell used to say, "You'll never get to the place where it's impossible for you to sin. But praises be to God that you are in a position where it's possible for you not to sin."1Jo 4:17 - "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."
These are great quotes Jesse from some powerful speakers but surely there is a difference between being perfect rather thenwalking in the spirit and having freedom over sin. If sinless perfection was a true doctrine that ravenhill, duncan campbell and others fully committed to then they would have taught it adamently because nothing less would be justice to the cross of christ if it allowed for a state of sinless perfection for us believers. I just don't see them teaching this, but rather teaching a victorious christian life, but we can never be 100% free from sin until we reach heaven. This is not a cause to backslide or to allow sin in our lifes but its rather an earnestly surrendering our lifes daily to the leading of the Holy Spirit and to the conformity to the likeness of Christ.Perhaps we have too narrow a view of what sin is and therefore we make it easy to claim perfection from sin.
Here is a powerful prayer from a puritan book called "the valley of vision" I can't but help fell that I have not submitted fully to divine love and surrendered all of my self as I read it:The Great GodO Fountain of all good,Destroy in me every lofty thought, Break pride to pieces and scatter it to the winds,Annihilate each clinging shred of self-righteousness,Implant in me true lowliness of spirit,Abase me to self-loathing and self-abhorrence,Open in me a fount of penitential tears,Break me, then bind me up;Thus will my heart be a prepared dwelling for my God; Then can the Father take up his abode in me, Then can the blessed Jesus come with healing in his touch, Then can the Holy Spirit descend in sanctifying grace;O Holy Trinity, three Persons and one God, inhabit me, a temple consecrated to thy glory.When thou art present, evil cannot abide;In thy fellowship is fullness of joy,Beneath thy smile is peace of conscience,By thy side no fears disturb, no apprehensions banish rest of mind,With thee my heart shall bloom with fragrance;Make me meet, through repentance, for thine indwelling.Nothing exceeds thy power,Nothing is too great for thee to do,Nothing too good for thee to give. Infinite is thy might, boundless thy love, limitless thy grace, glorious thy saving name.Let angels sing for sinners repenting, prodigals restored, backsliders reclaimed, Satan’s captives released, blind eyes opened, broken hearts bound up, the despondent cheered, the self-righteous stripped, the formalist driven from a refuge of lies, the ignorant enlightened, and saints built up in their holy faith.I ask great things of a great God.
Perhaps we have too narrow a view of what sin is and therefore we make it easy to claim perfection form sin. You hit the nail on the head!
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