"End of the Spear" Steve Saint Speaks

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crsschk Feb 1, 2006

Received the following from Randy Alcorns ministry the other day and thought it better to separate it from the thread End of the Spear and draw attention to it in isolation. "Randy asked me to send this request to you for prayer regarding the End of the Spear movie and the Chad Allen controversy. Many of you are no doubt aware of the controversy that surrounds the End of the Spear movie and the actor who plays Nate Saint, Chad Allen, who is a homosexual activist. Randy has found himself on the inside of this controversy talking with the principle parties involved on both sides of the issue. He was reluctant to get involved but because of the substantial amount of misinformation that is being passed around he felt he needed to address it. After long interactions with the primary parties related to this controversy (including hours of phone conversations and dozens of emails) he has put together a comprehensive response. He’s asking that you would pray for Mart Green and Steve Saint and their families who have suffered incredible pain from the misinformation that has been dispersed over the internet. Prayer is also needed for Jason Janz who has been involved in the center of the controversy. Please also pray for Chad Allen and his exposure to the gospel through acting in this movie and for the many nonbelievers who will be attending the movie because of Chad Allen’s role. To get a clear picture of what is involved, you can read the following two articles that are now posted at our website:" Randy Alcorn’s response to the End of the Spear and Chad Allen Controversy: http://www.epm.org/articles/end_spear_response.htmlMart Green (head of Every Tribe Entertainment, producer of End of the Spear) & Steve Saint answer questions: www.epm.org/articles/end_spear_chad_allen.htmlThink it was a noble thing of Randy to get down into the muck and mire here, despite everything. I do hope this might serve as a future warning about jumping to conclusions and taking positions.

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IRONMAN Feb 1, 2006

brethrenThe Lord is certainly not ignorant of Chad Allen and his lifestyle and yet it was so that he played this part in the movie. if the Lord had wanted it any other way, it would have been so. it seems to me that this is a lesson for us to keep from running our mouths sometimes and to let God check us. i've not seen very many discussions get as emotionally charged as ones to do with homosexuality. it seems to me adultery and fornication are by far more rampant sins in the church which have done far more damage to families, congregations and indeed our witness and yet i've yet to see us on these boards get riled up about any of these things. i'm in no way condoning this sin because God doesn't condone it. yet there is much else the Lord doesn't condone which we don't pay much attention to.i guess we all have aired how we feel, now let's seek the Lord earnestly on what to do.Lord forgive us of our pride and compel us to repent. :cry:

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

if the Lord had wanted it any other way, it would have been so.Hey Ironman... I cant go along with your reasoning on this point. (The rest of what you wrote is subjective opinion, and I dont necessarily disagree or agree)... but anyway... God promised Abraham a son with his wife. Abraham took it upon himself to help the Lord out, and did things his way. The result?? Terrorism, high gas prices, threats of war, Islam, etc. If Abraham had trusted the Lord to fulfill his promise then Isaac would have been the (only) son God wanted Abraham to have, and world history would have turned out completely different. But instead, Abraham chose to help fulfill God's promise by way of adultry, and having an illegimate son. And we are all living with the results of that decision today.Remember 9/11?Of course a movie is not earth shattering like Abrahams goof was... but the point is the same. MAN messes up, not God. And God does not always intervene to make sure we dont mess things up. Sometimes he allows us to mess things up, and then makes us live with the consequences.Love ya, bro...Krispy

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

but anyway... God promised Abraham a son with his wife. Abraham took it upon himself to help the Lord out, and did things his way. The result?? Terrorism, high gas prices, threats of war, Islam, etc. If Abraham had trusted the Lord to fulfill his promise then Isaac would have been the son God wanted Abraham and his wife to have, and world history would have turned out completely different.Do you realize that you are posting this from such a close minded comericalism american point of view!!! what in the world does Abraham have to do at all with the material success of america?? is america the "chosen people" now? Think outside the box (the american box) that is. The world does not revolve around america. I am saying this not disliking america but wanting to show the truth of the matter.I think Ironman has a valid point, but does not say that homosexuality is not a sin, it is a grevious sin actually and a depravity of Human nature that wants to rebel against God. I personally think that Christians can do without the "end of the spear" why do we NEED it? when has the church been so desperate to guard and maintain our slice of the world? we are called to forsake it. I am tired of blockbuster Christian movies.. We need the power of the Holy Spirit .. we need apostolic success.

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

Hi Krispy,How can you possibly hold Abraham solely responsible for that list of pains? Adam, surely, had more to do with it? What's more, the love of God is such He sent the second Adam, to bring the first Adam back into fellowship with Him. I've lived with the consequences of my actions, and it isn't easy, but, it was there that God proved Himself to me more than any other - His compassion for me, and His Fatherhood towards me. I would never have known how deep He can reach, if He had not let me fall so low.

K

KingJimmy Feb 1, 2006

My favorite part of the one article is where it quotes Paul in Philippians that says whether the gospel is preached in pretense or sincerity, he will rejoice that the gospel is preached. I saw this movie Friday night with my fiance, and boy, must I say I was delighted to do so. The movie had such a powerful demonstration of the self-giving sacrificial love of Christ and forgiveness. It had my fiance and I crying pretty good. Especially powerful was the martydom scene. The movie has encouraged me to go deeper in my walk with Christ, grown my heart for world missions, and makes me want to read the book, The Gates of Splendor, as well as see the actual documentry behind the movie.

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KingJimmy Feb 1, 2006

when has the church been so desperate to guard and maintain our slice of the world? we are called to forsake it. I am tired of blockbuster Christian movies.. We need the power of the Holy Spirit .. we need apostolic success.Who said by defending this movie we are guarding our slice of the world? Why do you equate making a Christian movie with worldliness? Movies in themselves are not wordly. Seeing a movie based on the Gates of Splendor is no different than reading the Gates of Splendor. They are simply two different forms of media. Or what about the rather famous documentry that we have of the Welsh Revival? Should we do away with that as well? It was quite powerful from what I recall.The apostolic power of the Holy Spirit is behind this movie in that He inspired the missionaries on which this movie was based. I know I found myself being questioned by the Holy Spirit as I watched the martydom scene, and asking myself, could I give my life in such a selfless way, to see the souls of an unwanted and despised group of people saved, knowing that within my short contact of them, I might be killed, and never have significant chance to share the gospel with them?

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

Wait wait wait... what happened to asking people to clarify their statements before jumping all over them??I can not even fathom how you got America involved in this. You conveniently misunderstood my point entirely. My point was that the ripples of Abraham's disobedience is felt today. God had a plan, and Abraham circumvented that plan... and we are still feeling the effects of it today. Especially in ISRAEL.I only mentioned gas prices because the Arabs control the world's economy. I mentioned Terrorism with ISRAEL in mind because 95% of the terrorism in the world happens in ISRAEL!! Thats the result of the disobedience of ABRAHAM.I swear, its amazing how people misinterpret what others are saying on here. I know I am guilty of it as well... but gee-whiz people! Before you scold me, ask me if perhaps you're misunderstanding me, or if perhaps I wasnt clear enough. I think IRONMAN's comment that "if God wanted it another way it would have happened" comment is not necessarily correct. It's actually a neo-Calvinistic statement. It denies man's "freewill".It's amazing how one post can be understood 20 different ways from upside down.Does clarify it for everyone? Am I "outside the box" now? (I always was)Krispy

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roadsign Feb 1, 2006

If Abraham had trusted the Lord to fulfill his promise then Isaac would have been the (only) son God wanted Abraham to have, and world history would have turned out completely differentKrispy, did God not miraculously spare Ishmael's life in the desert when he was dying of thirst? Diane

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IRONMAN Feb 1, 2006

bro Krispyi think this issue should be discussed elsewhere so that the theme of this thread isn't lost. we can talk privately if you wish but i'll start another thread on this perhaps.love you too bro

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

Krispy, did God not miraculously spare Ishmael's life in the desert when he was dying of thirst? DianeGod did not intend for Abraham to father Ishmael. That is my point. Had Abraham trusted God instead of sinning against God Ishmael would never had been born. That is my point. God has a plan, but He allows us free-will to either carry out his plans in faith... or not trust Him and mess it up.I only use Abraham as an example of God not interveneing to impose His plans on us. Can God turn our mistakes around? Of course... but His perfect plan can still be pre-empted by our disobedience.And I believe it applies to this movie as IRONMAN addressed it.That is my point.Krispy

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

i think this issue should be discussed elsewhere so that the theme of this thread isn't lost. we can talk privately if you wish but i'll start another thread on this perhaps.No, it wasnt my intention to veer off the road. My original post was in keeping, the misunderstandings kinda veered it off.If we're all clear on my point (agree or disagree) we can get back to topic, perhaps?Krispy

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roadsign Feb 1, 2006

Had Abraham trusted God instead of sinning against God Ishmael would never had been born. That is my point.But God DID intervene by sparing Ishmael's life. And that says something about God's nature. And that DOES speak to the very issue under discussion, does it not? God has always been a master at turning things upsidedown - pouring out mercy exactly where it shouldn't go. We're in the mess we are in because of unbelief, not because of those "illegitamate" sinners across the ocean. God promises to protect those who trust in him, and no foe need by feared. Diane

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

God has always been a master at turning things upsidedown - pouring out mercy exactly where it shouldn't go. Thats exactly what I said, Diane, but thanx for reaffirming it. :-)We're in the mess we are in because of unbelief, not because of those "illegitamate" sinners across the ocean. God promises to protect those who trust in him, and no foe need by feared. Yea, but again, I was not addressing America. I was addressing the "Arabs against the World" mentality that they have over there. The fighting between the Jew and the Arab. I've been there, I've seen it. I've been shot at over there. It's a very real hatred that started with Abraham's disobedience.To bring it back on topic... my point with all of this is... the statement that if God had a better plan He would have implemented it is not accurate. And I believe God had a better plan the The End Of The Spear.Krispy

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IRONMAN Feb 1, 2006

bro Krispyok, i got the other thread going, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac etc. in the lounge. as it pertains to the movie let everyone seek the Lord's counsel on what to do be it see it, pray for those in it, examine ourselves or whatever the Lord would have us do. To bring it back on topic... my point with all of this is... the statement that if God had a better plan He would have implemented it is not accurate. And I believe God had a better plan the The End Of The Spear.does anything happen outside the will of God? is the Lord not sovereign over all that whatever He intends can be usurped by our own will? are we not subject to His sovereign will even in our own free will? hey maybe i didn't need to start a whole new thread or did i? :-? this issue of the Lord's sovereingty is kinda what i want to get into on the other thread.

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roadsign Feb 1, 2006

All that I can say in response to the article is "Wow!I had no idea!"There is a lot to read, but it is worth it. I was very humbled when I read Steve Saint's own testimony - his dream, and how God convicted his heart of the need to shed his fear of man, and accept his sovereignty. There can be no disputing that God clearly directed this movie (behind the "scenes")As I read I was convicted of my own sins. You see, in the previous thread on this topic I had judged the ETE fasely - assuming that they used the controversy to make money. That was not the case at all. The overall message to me: Do not make judgments or assumptions on something you know nothing about.Thank you Mike for posting this. Diane

sermonindex Feb 1, 2006

I read the article too...What are we to think of Steve Saint's dream? It is simple. God would never act contrary to His own Scriptures. That would be the penultimate confusion. If God does not act strictly in accordance with His own revelation, it would be impossible to know anything for certain. This is not to "put God in a box." It is rather to honor God by taking Him at His Word.What does the Scripture say on this issue? It forbids Christians to yoke together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14) and it requires Christians to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11), to turn away from those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof (2 Tim. 3:5), and not to keep company with "any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" (1 Cor. 5:11).That is clear enough. God does love men and has provided salvation in such a manner that "whosoever will" can repent and trust Jesus Christ and be saved. But God's love for sinners and His desire that all be saved is an entirely different issue than the one at hand, which is whether or not Christians should yoke together with a homosexual activist who has blasphemed the name of Jesus Christ in movies and plays (Corpis Christi) and whether they should promote him in the role of a martyred missionary that did not believe in the homosexual agenda.In further justification of his support for the homosexual activist in the role of his father, Steve Saint said, "God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." This is Hollywood's favorite Bible verse and has been quoted in countless movies, but of course it is nowhere in the Bible!Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.I respect Steve Saint, however he is just as capable of being completely wrong as any of the rest of us. And in this instance... I believe he is.Krispy

sermonindex Feb 2, 2006

In further justification of his support for the homosexual activist in the role of his father, Steve Saint said, "God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." This is Hollywood's favorite Bible verse and has been quoted in countless movies, but of course it is nowhere in the Bible!Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.Krispy,I don't know if you did a search for the exact words you quote from Steve Saint, but there most definitely are many references to wonders, and the meaning (of God's 'mysterious ways') is very clearly sketched there using slightly different words. For instance, Job said (9:10)Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. and Psalms 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked [him] at the sea, [even] at the Red sea. I've stayed with the KJV, because the sentence you quote is from a hymn, written in the era when it was the version mainly available, and that's why such a phrase has passed into common English usage. God moves in a mysterious wayHis wonders to perform;He plants His footsteps in the seaAnd rides upon the storm.Deep in unfathomable minesOf never failing skillHe treasures up His bright designsAnd works His sovereign will.Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;The clouds ye so much dreadAre big with mercy and shall breakIn blessings on your head.Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,But trust Him for His grace;Behind a frowning providenceHe hides a smiling face.His purposes will ripen fast,Unfolding every hour;The bud may have a bitter taste,But sweet will be the flower.Blind unbelief is sure to errAnd scan His work in vain;God is His own interpreter,And He will make it plain.William Cowper 1731 - 1800Interesting that this hymn specifically mentions God's sovreign will. 'He plants his footstep in the sea and rides upon the storm' are thoughts also in Psalms.Therefore, I think you're taking a huge amount upon yourself, to suggest that Steve Saint was not hearing from God when he made the decisions he did concerning the making of a film about his father. Another thing to remember is how very young the children were when their fathers died, and the effect of the bereavement on them, as well as any natural desire to bring the truth of history outworked (before video cameras were invented) to the understanding of a completely new generation.

sermonindex Feb 2, 2006

Krispy, you also said (p1 of this thread)If Abraham had trusted the Lord to fulfill his promise then Isaac would have been the (only) son God wanted Abraham to have, and world history would have turned out completely different. Did you know about Abraham's concubines?Genesis 25:5, 6 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. One of the points of discussion during the unfolding story in Genesis, is that Abraham and Sarah did not know whether either of them could have children. The outcome of Abraham and Hagar was proof that Abraham at least, was fertile. The Bible refers to Sarah as barren (Gen 11:30), but of course, they didn't know that, while they were living through it. Can you imagine what a huge comfort it was to Abraham to realise the only reason he had not had children, was his wife's barrenness? This immediately shifted the focus on to whether God could over-rule Sarah's condition.Genesis 20:17, 18 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. So, Abraham's prayer life was nothing diminished for calling on his primary relationship to Sarah, namely, that they were very closely related, apart from marriage. The other thing bothering me about what you said about Abraham, is, God called him His friend and imputed to him righteousness for his faith.Are we not obliged to accept God's assessment of Abraham's character? ......... In that He has called us 'friends', He has proved in our generation what kind of taste He has in friends..... You wanna grumble about that?

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roadsign Feb 2, 2006

Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.If we did not carefully examine other surrounding facts and Steve's testimony, we could possible arrive at this conclusion. Steve was not eager to accept the actor. It felt wrong, but it was also unethical to break a contract. The dream exposed the real motive of his reluctance - it was the fear of backlash. This reminds me of God's request to Peter in the dream of the sheet and unclean animals. The dream helped Peter accept God's purposes - to have mercy to the Gentiles - something which to a Jew seemed totally against Torah Law. It seems clear to me that Steve is not equally yoked with the world in this issue. His heart remains reserved for God, and I sense no compromise in his testimony. It is also worth considering how those who opposed reacted - hardly Christlike, and hardly in a manner which would bring conviction to sinners (rather it would turn them away)If this is indeed a divine appointment, we will see God's hand in it. (unless we're like the Pharisees who rejected many of the miraculous things Christ did.) Diane