What is sin?

I hope no one minds me starting a new thread...It seems that the "Must we sin?" thread turned into this.I think that for us to say that we can or can't be without sin we have to define sin. I think that is why some say you can/can't sin is because they both have a different idea of sin.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I think this is one of the items which resurfaces from time to time. The division of opinion is often on the question of Sin or sins. Individual transgressions of 'law' may be defined as sins but what is this Sin that Paul refers to in Rom 5:12 which entered the world at the time of Adam's first sin?My own personal definition (imperfect and partial, I know) is that "Faith is right response to revelation and sin is wrong response to revelation." “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17, KJVS)“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)

Hmmm.. I've never made a distinction of 'sins' and 'sin.' Can you give some more thought on this? This is a new idea to me. Thanks.

preachparsley's Hmmm.. I've never made a distinction of 'sins' and 'sin.' Can you give some more thought on this? This is a new idea to me. This is a fairly common distinction that evangelicals have made for a hundred years or so... but in essence it is a way of explaining what Paul is referring to in Romans 5. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”(Rom. 5:12, KJVS) You see we are back to this topic again. ;-) but I am glad to have another opportunity of working through it. From Rom 5:12 and for most of the rest of the next couple of chapters Paul refers to sin in a very different way to anything found elsewhere in the Bible; he personifies it. Before this point in Romans he generally has in mind 'sin' as the transgression of law. He uses the language of 'measurement', reckoned etc but when he arrives at Rom 5:12 Sin has become an entity and behaves with 'personality' characteristics. egSin enters the world...Rom 5:12 (through the open door of Adam's transgression.It reigns... Rom 5:21It has 'bondslaves's - us! Rom 6:6 but this has now changed Rom 6:17, 6:20,22It must not be allowed to 'reign' in the Christian Rom 6:12We must not surrender our 'weapons' to it Rom 6:13It must no longer be 'lord' (have dominion) Rom 6:14It must no longer be obeyed Rom 6:16Christians have been released from it and have become slaves to righteousness Rom 6:18It pays wages! Rom 6:23I won't go on into the next chapters but the point is that rather than sin being a 'mark' on a card against us, it appears here as a tyrant on a throne, and its co-regent is death.Have you ever read anything of Arthur Custance? I have often had his work recommended to me but have never really read it. Today, googling, I came across what looks like a pretty thorough examination of the topic The difference between "Sin" and "sins".It's quite a long read but if the concept is new to you it will make good 'homework reading' for you.

This is the greatest definition in the Bible for sin. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)These companion verses show what, "to him it is sin" means. John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on Me;This is sin that leads to death, "Of sin, because they believe not on Me;" In Christ the Sin of the world has been overcome and we become like Him in this world. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. 1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. The sins of the Flesh are not the Sin of the World. Sins of the Flesh were taken care of at the Cross and repentance in our salvation and confession in our sins takes care of them. The Sin of the world is overcome by believing in Christ Jesus unto salvation, all else comes after new birth, because we then have the Faith of Jesus Christ in us that has overcome the world and we then can be forgiven of our sins, for, "God is Faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."Sin and sins, forgiveness of Sin unto salvation by believing In Christ Jesus. Sins overcome by the faith of the Son of God that is in us unto good works and fruit that overcomes the world. Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."In Me", this is our life, our overcoming, and our Glory. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:For it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.In Christ: Phillip

It was somewhat of a long read, but there were many tables that made it look longer than what it really was. I'm not really sure why he threw the Calvinist doctrine of "Limited Atonement" in there at the end but that is beside the matter. So according to this view, would it be safe to say that we are born in 'sin' but we then choose to commit 'sins' and that is our personal rebellion against God? I have heard some about "propensity" but this was interesting and at first thought seems to be a Biblical truth. As he noted there are occasions that 'sin' is referring to 'an offense' instead of 'disease,' so that surely makes me want to study this more. Do you know of some others that hold this view that would have writings I could look at?Here is a quote for those who may not want to read the whole thing: Just to make sure that my meaning is understood, since we are really setting the stage for all that follows, I should like to reiterate what is said above in slightly different terms. Not only is physical death now the appointed experience of all men in Adam (I Cor. 15:22), but all men are active sinners. Romans 3:23 has it, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." But in writing to the Roman Christians, Paul makes it very clear that though all men inherit Adam's disease, Adam's sin, they do not imitate his particular sins. They have inherited his final mortal state but their transgressions are not a "similitude" of his (Rom. 5:14). Nor is Adam's particular form of transgression imputed to his descendants, though his acquired disease is inherited by them to become a root which bears fruit in their lives. As a result they stand equally under the sentence of spiritual death by their own disobedience to the law of God, as they do under the sentence of physical death. The penalty of spiritual death is shared because each man has sinned personally not merely because Adam sinned. Each individual comes under sentence of spiritual death for his own sins.

Christinyou'sThis is the greatest definition in the Bible for sin. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS) Weymouth's paraphrase has “If, however, a man knows what it is right to do and yet does not do it, he commits a sin.”(James 4:17, WEYMTH) Weymouth is picking up the fact that we are not talking about 'sin' generically but individually. There is no definite article attached to 'sin' here which means we could equally translate this "he commits a sin"; which is why Weymouth has paraphrased it as he has.Biblically 'sins' are dealt with by forgiveness and the one who committed the 'sin' is justified. SIN as the inward dynamic which entered the human race at the time of Adam's sin has to be dealt with by regeneration.The Custance article hyperlinked alleges that all uses of 'sin' in the singular in the NT are really referring to 'Sin'. I think he may be right; I haven't checked all the references.In Christ the Sin of the world has been overcome and we become like Him in this world. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. 1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. The sins of the Flesh are not the Sin of the World. Sins of the Flesh were taken care of at the Cross and repentance in our salvation and confession in our sins takes care of them. The Sin of the world is overcome by believing in Christ Jesus unto salvation, all else comes after new birth, because we then have the Faith of Jesus Christ in us that has overcome the world and we then can be forgiven of our sins, for, "God is Faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I am struggling with this section. I think you are distinguishing between 'Sin' and 'sins'. I am not sure what you think the 'sin of the world' is. As far as I am aware the scripture does not speak of our 'overcoming the Sin of the world'. On the contrary, it tells us that Christ 'carried away the Sin of the world'. This is not 'overcoming' but substitutionary atonement' as typified in the sin-bearing goat which carried the sins of the people away into the wilderness. I would like to see a simple statement like "the sin of the world is....". Can you crystalize what you are saying into such a sentence?

Preachparsley's So according to this view, would it be safe to say that we are born in 'sin' but we then choose to commit 'sins' and that is our personal rebellion against God? I have heard some about "propensity" but this was interesting and at first thought seems to be a Biblical truth. As he noted there are occasions that 'sin' is referring to 'an offense' instead of 'disease,' so that surely makes me want to study this more. Do you know of some others that hold this view that would have writings I could look at? As I said earlier I had not read Custance on this until today. The person who put me onto him is someone with whom I have had many hours of discussion and I guessed he thought Custance and myself were seeing things in the same light. So I find this particular document very encouraging. I spend quite a bit of my time 'out on a limb' and from time to time it is encouraging to find other folk out there too. :-) I haven't gone through the whole of his piece but I find a great degree of agreement in the way he is expressing things. I don't know of any one who would express it quite like this, except me! :-? I will do some googling and see what I can find.

The Custance article seems to advocate that the spirit of man is alive and just in a process of being corrupted and the death the Lord talked to Adam about was a literal dieing of the human body. I'll need to re-read it again but I'm not at all sure that I totally agree with that position. I read through it rather fast and will for the next 2 weeks be out of town so I'll have more quality quiet time to read this again. It is an interesting topic though and one in which I'll be very much interested in reading through the thread when I return.

I read through it rather fast Me too. I need to re-read it.btw preachparsley, you asked for more to read. Thomas Cook's famous 'New Testament Holiness' has this passage Depravity as such is not always seen in the outer life, but it is manifest to the painful consciousness of the believer. When he would do good evil is present with him. The strong man is bound, but not being cast out, he makes desperate efforts to burst his bonds and reassert his supremacy in the household. The evil within may be kept iii subjection, but the struggle is often so severe and protracted that ever and anon the bitter cry is extorted, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"The penitent convicted of his sins seeks Divine forgiveness. The believer convicted of the depravity of his nature sighs for inward purity. The one inquires, How can the sins which are past be forgiven? the other asks. How can I be cleansed from conscious impurity? We are guilty for what we have done, but we were depraved before we were responsible for our doing. The existence of both original and actual sin has always been accepted by the Christian Church as a Scriptural doctrine.It is because sin exists in this twofold character, as an act and as a state, that salvation assumes a twofold aspect, or is applied in two forms. For guilt there is forgiveness, for depravity there is cleansing. Forgiveness is complete forgiveness, but forgiveness can only extend to actual transgression. A mother puts upon her child a clean pinafore, and says, "Now, this must not be soiled ." But the child disobeys. The mother may forgive the child for her disobedience, but she cannot forgive the pinafore clean; she must wash it. So God may forgive the wrong we do, but He cannot forgive a depraved heart. Depravity is removed by purgation or cleansing. This is in perfect harmony with the Scriptures. Zechariah represents the fountain of Atonement as opened to meet this double need -- pardon for sin (guilt), and the purity for uncleanness (depravity). St. John's teaching is exactly the same. "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (guilt), and to cleanse us all from all unrighteousness (depravity). And with this view the hymn is in exact accord:--Let the water and the blood,From Thy wounded side which flowed,Be of sin the double cure,Save from wrath, and make me pure.This twofold provision for the two forms in which sin exists runs all through the Scriptures. It was typified in the history of God's ancient Israel when they crossed the Red Sea and the Jordan in leaving Egypt and entering Canaan. We enter the holy place by regeneration, but let us not forget that, after the second veil is the tabernacle which is called the "Holy of Holies" (Heb.ix. 3).My remedy would be expressed differently to Cook but we share the diagnosis!

He did go into some scientific stuff talking about how he felt 'sin' was passed on physically. From what I understood of him is that he was saying that when a child is born he/she has 'sin' or going to die, the body will physically decay, and has a propensity to sin. Then when the child gets to the age that he/she can make a moral decision will inevitably commit 'sins' at this time. I may have been reading other theories into it but that is what I remember of it.

The sin of the world is every sin from Adam to the last sin committed at the end of the 1000 years and all wrong against God inbetween. This is what Christ did on the Cross, He took all sin upon Himself and His sacrifice made all sin, past, present, and future to disappear from the Eyes and Heart of God to those that would believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten of the Father. Jesus is continually putting the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world, that it is the daily office of Christ to take away our sin, by presenting to the Father the memorials of his death. Christ takes away from all believers the guilt and punishment of their sins, the filth and pollution of them, the power and dominion that is in them: Sin permeates our Members (Rom. 7:23). Sin makes law ineffective (Rom. 8:3). When Law came, Law made sin effective and visible. Without the Law there is no sin. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the written law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: There is no excuse for sin, even those without the written Law make the Law viable and true in themselves. "Sin"Our personal sins are separate, but from, the sin that Christ put death to on the Cross. The working out of our own salvation with fear and trembling is our own works of repentance of our individual sins that are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit because of the separation imparted by our sins and works of repentance bring us by revelation to the mind of Christ, thus fellowship with the Father once again. Thus our forgiveness in confession of sin by agreeing with God that in the revealing by the Holy Spirit we must repent and become the son's of God of whom we truly are by the Christ in us whose Mind is now ours.In Christ: Phillip

ChristinyouYour view has some serious implications. The sin of the world is every sin from Adam to the last sin committed at the end of the 1000 years and all wrong against God inbetween.Our personal sins are separate, but from, the sin that Christ put death to on the Cross.I think you are saying that our personal sins are not part of the 'sin of the world'? This is a view that I have never heard previously. You seem to be saying that God's distinguishes between the world's sin and the Christian's sin.Jesus is continually putting the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world, that it is the daily office of Christ to take away our sin, by presenting to the Father the memorials of his death.This is only a hair's breadth from the Catholic notion of a sacrifice that needs to be offered continually. Where do you get the idea of a 'daily office of Christ to take away our sin'?Heb. 10:10 (KJVS) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:14 (KJVS) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:18 (KJVS) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. You view of a 'daily office' is really little more than a modification of the Catholic view in the 'offering of the mass'. There is no 'daily office'. There was a 'once for all' offering which requires no repetition and no 'daily memorial'. John's first letter makes this very plain:“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”(1John 2:1-2, KJVS)The death of Christ needs no memorial. I really can't think what the phrase "the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world" might mean. Propitiation is the price paid. In the presence of God there stands one who 'is' the Propitiation; the price paid. All forgiveness of sin, whether of 'the world' or 'the saint' is based on exactly the same ground.1John 4:10 (KJVS) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. No memorial, nor daily office, could have any additional efficacy. The statement of Christ being 'the propitiation' is fundamental to Christian teaching“whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;”(Rom. 3:25, ASV) That verb 'set forth' is in the Aorist: he did set forth. The Propitiation is an historical fact. Nothing that we (or God) can do will alter it in any way; it is finished. The language of I John is not intended to convey any 'memorial' or 'daily office' but is a simple way of saying our acceptance with God, then-now-always, is on the basis of a propitiatory sacrifice that was completed 'once for all'.

Or in other words, "It is finished !"P.S. The idea of continual propitiation is also a Seventh Day Adventist heresy.

freecd's "Paris Reidhead" "A sinner is a person who has committed himself to the purpose and practice of pleasing himself without due and proper regard for the interest of God and the rights of others."Now we are going to have to define 'sinner'. :-) Does a 'single' sin make a man a sinner? Or is being a 'sinner' something which we are born with?We first discussed 'Paris Reidhead's views on 'original sin' way back in August 2003! Here is the archive.

Philo,In the difference between 'sin' and 'sins', would you say that 'sin' is a dispostion, and that 'sins' are offenses?