Gaither topic | SermonIndex

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mblawrence Feb 11, 2006

First of all, we need to ask ourselves this question- Which approach will lead others to Jesus? It does say in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination unto God, but it also says lying lips is an abomination unto God. If any of you out there says that they have not lied well then you just committed an abomination unto God. Church, there is a whole mission field in the gay and lesbian community that will not be reached unless we, as the Body of Christ, reach them. How will any of them see the error of their ways unless they are around the healing presence of a loving Church. We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the Church. God is a big God and he that began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. We are all works in progress, so have a little patience and stop being such Pharisees.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2006

There is recent thread on this topic in the forum. I would encourage you to move this thread to that forum as it's the very same thing. Here is that link:BILL GAITHER AND GAYS – A NEW LOW IN THE “JUDGE NOT” PHILOSOPHY

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ginnyrose Feb 11, 2006

mblawrence wrote: We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the Church. Sir: I beg of you to provide a verse with its reference to prove your point! I suggest you take any concordance and look up the word 'holy' and read ALL of those references and then come back and tell us what the Bible says about holiness!!!ginnyrose

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

So I guess you wouldnt have any problem with homosexual pastors, missionaries and evangelists?We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the Church.What is the "church"? I would recommend you do a study on what that actually means. If you are an unrepentant sinner you are not part of the Body of Christ... which is the church. Does that mean that those of us who are saved dont sin? No... but the difference is that we have the Holy Spirit, which convicts us when we do sin. If you claim to be a Christian and have no conviction of your sins, and continue on in it.. you are not saved.Holy does not mean sinless. Holy means set apart, seperate.Krispy

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pottershands Feb 13, 2006

What's that sound? pssssst- crack! Oh no, it's the sound of another can of worms being opened.... :-? I hope this doesn't turn into another 17 page arguement! (No, this post isn't directed at anyone in particular. Please don't throw rotten fruit at me!) ;-)

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

There really is no can of worms... scripture is clear. There is only ignorance or ignoring of the commands of scripture.Just be clear... no one has ever said that we should not befriend homosexuals and make efforts to bring to Christ. Of course we should. But to say that God will use unrepentant sinners (folks who are not saved) in ministry makes God a liar, because He clearly forbids that in His Word.As far as lying being an abomination, if a believer is caught in lie then he should be dealt with so that he is brought to repentance. Same thing for a believer who falls back into homosexuality (or any other sexual sin). Thats why scripture discusses church DISCIPLINE, but that goes largely ignored today as well. We wouldnt want to offend anyone and risk them leaving the church... right? Let 'em go, I say. I've had to ask people to leave before. It's never easy, but it was needed on several levels.To obey is better than sacrifice.Krispy

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro Krispyyou saidWhat is the "church"? I would recommend you do a study on what that actually means. If you are an unrepentant sinner you are not part of the Body of Christ... which is the church. Does that mean that those of us who are saved dont sin? No... but the difference is that we have the Holy Spirit, which convicts us when we do sin. If you claim to be a Christian and have no conviction of your sins, and continue on in it.. you are not saved.what sins do you still commit even though now you're saved which you committed before you were saved? if there is even one then by your logic here you would be unrepentant and thus unsaved and i know you're saved. or am i missing something? :-?

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

I think perhaps we might be over shooting the original thread. Let me explain:We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the ChurchI believe what the writer is saying(Icouldbewrong) is that he/she believes in holiness, but not the way that he is seeing today, thru legalistic ways. The reason why I believe this is what is being said is the latter part of the post:We are all works in progress, so have a little patience and stop being such Pharisees.I have come from a United Pentecostal background and holiness to that organization is far different than then what the bible teaches. Perhaps MbLawrence is coming from this point of view, but lacks the ability to use his grammer properly.I can understand the SI member concerns here, homosexuality is such a big issue that those who are non practicing homosexuals seeking help within a legalistic enviroment may as well forget about mercy, the law will cut him to pieces and I can attest to that experience. So the SI member may be using the word Holy in place of what he sees as legalism in the church. If he has received a true conversion than he does believe in holiness. My thoughtsKarl Karl

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro KrispyAs far as lying being an abomination, if a believer is caught in lie then he should be dealt with so that he is brought to repentance. Same thing for a believer who falls back into homosexuality (or any other sexual sin). Thats why scripture discusses church DISCIPLINE, but that goes largely ignored today as well. We wouldnt want to offend anyone and risk them leaving the church... right? Let 'em go, I say. I've had to ask people to leave before. It's never easy, but it was needed on several levels.but do we deal with believers who lie as we should? i don't think so coz we all lie at some point and oft get caught but that seems to get glossed over if it's noticed at all. i agree we should deal with (in Christ's love) with those who relapse into whatever sin coz guess what, we all do at some point. bro Frank (appolus) started a thread called "Are you an Adulterer", i think the thread ended up being 4-5 pages long or so, but the one on bill gaither and the 2 or 3 about the end of the spear easily had over 20 pages each. let's say (for arguement's sake that the total for the threads to do with homosexuality are 60 altogether, why is there that preoccupation? why couldn't we have more people speaking out about adultery?of course it should be left unspoken of or undealt with. however adultery and fornication are BY FAR the more prevalent sexual sins in the body of Christ yet we don't have the same fire concerning them as we do homosexuality and that's just hypicritical in the eyes of God. i'm willing to bet that 70-90% of Christians have committed fornication and adultery (even in the heart)or both and these sins are far more destructive to the body as more homes and lives are broken by them. how is it then in the face of alarming teen pregancy rates, kids fornicating at younger and younger ages and doing even more crazy stuff is there very little if any outrage about it?the unbeliever looks at this and says (even though this shouldn't be an excuse not to repent)"forget these hypocrites" we have got to start letting God deal with us instead of running from Him.bro Krispy you know i love you and we disagree on this issue on some levels but i feel burdened greatly of the Lord about all this.our problem is we like to jump up and down about sins we're not guilty of for whatever reason and we need to REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

or am i missing something?What your missing is that word "unrepentant". There is a big difference between when a believer sins and repents for that sin because they recognize it as sin... and someone who commits sin but refuses to acknowledge that it is sin. Of course I sin, but I also am aware that when I sin I need to confess it to the Lord and make things right with Him... and whoever I may have sinned against.Thats the difference.There are many homosexuals who call themselves "Christians" who believe God accepts them as homosexuals, that it is not a sin... and that God created them that way... and in so doing they justify their sin. And that is what I am addressing.And it is wrong for church leaders to join hands with this crowd under the guise of "ministry". Just the fact that we even have to have these discussions shows how close to the world's way of thinking the church has become.If I call homosexuality a sin... even on a forum like this one... I'm either called a hate-monger, or people say "Are you without sin?" What ever happened to truth?Krispy

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

but do we deal with believers who lie as we should? i don't think so coz we all lie at some point and oft get caught but that seems to get glossed over if it's noticed at all. i agree we should deal with (in Christ's love) with those who relapse into whatever sin coz guess what, we all do at some point. But again... your missing my point completely. A person lies, or even commits adultry... and confesses it and repents of it does not need church discipline. Church discipline is meant to produce repentance in believers who will not repent of whatever sin they have fallen into.(Having said that, there are certain sins in which a church leader should be removed from leadership even if they are repentant. Consult Timothy and Titus.)Say I treat someone wrong because I'm in a mood. I confess it and make it right to both God and the person I sinned against. There is no need for church discipline. However, if I dont repent but rather harden my heart and continually treat this person wrongly... then the church has a right to exercise discipline. Not to punish me or to exercise authority over me, but out of love for me to see me restored, and also to protect the people in the church, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.Not sure why we're not connecting on this, bro... am I still not clear enough?Krispy

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brentw Feb 13, 2006

Maybe we should stop preaching against the sin of homosexuality and just preach against "sins" and make everyone feel good. Or maybe we should not preach against anything at all since we all have faults?? 8-)

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro KrispyWhat your missing is that word "unrepentant". There is a big difference between when a believer sins and repents for that sin because they recognize it as sin... and someone who commits sin but refuses to acknowledge that it is sin. Of course I sin, but I also am aware that when I sin I need to confess it to the Lord and make things right with Him... and whoever I may have sinned against.i think we're getting somewhere, but what of the sins we commit knowing they are sin and yet we continue to commit them, is that not unrepentance? or is unrepentance limited to not acknowledging something as sin? :-? There are many homosexuals who call themselves "Christians" who believe God accepts them as homosexuals, that it is not a sin... and that God created them that way... and in so doing they justify their sin. And that is what I am addressing.just as this is true, there are also many adulterers who make the same claim, so do many of our youth who fornicate also and this is what i pray we don't neglect coz this is a far more pervasive and destructive issue as more people are involved in such. And it is wrong for church leaders to join hands with this crowd under the guise of "ministry". Just the fact that we even have to have these discussions shows how close to the world's way of thinking the church has become.i agree bro, just as it is also equally wrong for church leaders to join with adulterers and fornicators, and liars etc under the guise of ministry. but then again, there is a lot of adultery and fornication going on too...just as we have to wrestle with the fact that the church is very lax on adultery and fornication shows also how close we've come to the world in the justification or neglect of these things too :-( i agree with you homosexuality is sin, let's just not forget about all the others while we're at it is what i'm saying. What ever happened to truth?yeah, what ever did happen to truth? :-(

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro Krispylike i said though in the post about lies, "we oft get caught" but when we do get caught is there discipline dished out?Say I treat someone wrong because I'm in a mood. I confess it and make it right to both God and the person I sinned against. There is no need for church discipline. However, if I dont repent but rather harden my heart and continually treat this person wrongly... then the church has a right to exercise discipline. Not to punish me or to exercise authority over me, but out of love for me to see me restored, and also to protect the people in the church, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.does this apply to lying also and other sins too? bro i'm getting a better picture of where you're coming from, i hope you're getting a better picture of where i'm coming from.are you?

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

Why is it that we don't see anywhere in the New Testement that we are to preach against sin in the world?In the Church yes, but not to the world.In all instances they preached the Good News, and they preached Christ.John preached Repentance to Israel!Jesus preached the Good News to Israel!Apostles and others preached Christ and the gospel of reconcilation to Israel and to the uttermost parts of the earth!Now can someone give me a scripture in the New Testement where anyone preached against sin to the world?Pauls letters were sent to Churches, not to the world. Who does the convicting? You or Me? Nay but the holy Ghost does it. We preach Christ and the ressurection and as we preach the holy Spirit convicts hearts. "And God adding to the Church such as should be saved" God was adding not man. Judgements were for those who are inside the Church not to the world. The world is already condemned, "He came not to condemn the world, but that the world thru Him might be saved". That word still stands today and forever.It's Jesus Jesus Jesus, He is the one that this world wants to know about, but all we talk about to the world is sin sin sin sin, your going to hell hell hell, God loves the sinner but He hates the sin. Foolish philosphies, God loves you PERIOD with or without sin. It's not your sin that is the issue, it's what you do with the Good News of Jesus Christ, are you going to receive the report or reject it? Being wooed and lured into a feeling sorry for your sins is pointless, you will do it again given the opprutunity. This flesh will make sure that you will sin again again again, most who read this know exactly what I am saying. I am not excusing sin, no siree. But Christ must be preached and His ressurection this is the whole of the gospel message that we have now excess to the Father because of the act of Jesus Christ.If Christ were not risen then we are still dead in our sins and we are still seperated from the Father. But now that Christ has been risen we have been accepted in the beloved even all those who have received Him gave He power to become the sons of God. This is important, this is the Good News that Christ rose again, this is PARAMOUNT in our faith.I have never known what I am typing to you at this very moment, as I am typing I feel the holy Ghost giving me these words. I have never known what I am saying right now about why it was important that Christ rise again, if Christ had not have risen we would still be in our sins and would have no way to come to Father we would have been seperated forever. This is the Good News the reconcilation of mankind back to God. It doesn't matter what sin you are involved in come to God anyway and let Him deal with it one on one.We put such an emphasis on sin that we have condemned the sinner as sin. And I felt for a moment that God is greived by our actions that He wants us to LOVE instead, the kind of love that covers a multitude of sins. That simply means that we literally don't see the sin, it's covered. When Christ died, the lintels of Earths door had been stained with His blood. God's love covered it all, "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son". Sin is not the problem, rejection of the message of the good news of Jesus Christ is.Can we believe that we are causing the problem of many not receiving the message? The North American love in the church is, "Bless us four and no more".I remember reading about D.L.Moody, where he went into a large train depot as he was doing some traveling, and people in that station started to drop to their knees because they felt the awesome conviction of God in this man. Was it because He preached against sin, the story doesn't say that he said anything. I wonder what agape love can do? I don't know a soul anywhere that has this kind of love streaming from thier lives that would cause sinners to take notice that God resides in that person.I want to be that person. Brother Moody what is the secret, can you tell us?KarlPS: I mentioned the holy Ghost speaking to me, not to convince you that you need to listen to me. No, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches, and allow these words to sink down into your ears. Luke 9:44

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

Maybe we should stop preaching against the sin of homosexuality and just preach against "sins" and make everyone feel good. Or maybe we should not preach against anything at all since we all have faults??Well, by that logic we should throw out the Bible completely because it was written by men who had faults.Krispy

sermonindex Feb 13, 2006

Ironman,It so happens that this particular discussion is about homosexuality. You and I have conversed enough that I know you know that I speak out on a number of different things. And if this discussion were about fornication and adultry I would be saying the same things.I think we all have sins that we are unrepentant of. But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins. We are all a work in progress, and none of us will reach perfection here on earth, but when a group of people stand up and say "What we're doing is not sin", and scripture clearly says "Yes it is"... thats a problem. The believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship may not "repent", but I doubt very seriously that they would say "This is not a sin!". (Maybe they would! Who knows, with the worldliness that is in the church today...) I really dont think we're very far apart on this. This is why clarification is needed at times on this forum. Plus it helps that you and I have a history together that gives us a little more understanding about each other. I hope we serve as an example to others here that we can discuss... even debate... issues on here, and still be brothers in the Lord.Krispy

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brentw Feb 13, 2006

Well, by that logic we should throw out the Bible completely because it was written by men who had faults.Love it!! :-)

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro KrispyI think we all have sins that we are unrepentant of. But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins. We are all a work in progress, and none of us will reach perfection here on earth, but when a group of people stand up and say "What we're doing is not sin", and scripture clearly says "Yes it is"... thats a problem. The believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship may not "repent", but I doubt very seriously that they would say "This is not a sin!". (Maybe they would! Who knows, with the worldliness that is in the church today...)well i would disagree on the last bit about the believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship calling it sin. i'm sure there is a lot of ignorance, ie people being remarried outside of the bounds of scripture but there are those who know it's sin and yet remain in such relationships and even some who would contend they are not in sin.bro Karl brought up this point which the Lord showed me through sis Diane and bro Ron Bailey on a similar thread and a couple of others too. what should be convicting sinners is not so much our words as it is our conduct. Karl brought up D.L. Moody who upon walking into a trainstation and not even saying anything, people were convicted. the Lord's Spirit had so worked on him that it emanated from him and he didn't have to say a thing but just be there. that's a lot easier than getting into debates and shouting matches...let us all let the Lord deal with us unto repentance that our lives may testify to the Lord's grace and mercy such that we need not even say anything.Lord conform us to yourself by any means necessary.AMEN.

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IRONMAN Feb 13, 2006

bro Krispyoh yeah we're not far apart, we're coming from different angles of the same issue. and yes the bottom line is that we are brothers in Christ and member of the same body and we need eachother.