The Spread of Democracy is Confusing

Rice: $75 million sought to spur democracy in IranWednesday, February 15, 2006; Posted: 11:44 a.m. EST (16:44 GMT) Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says funds would be used for radio and TV programs in Iran. (Reuters) -- President Bush wants $75 million to try to spur democracy in its adversary Iran, expanding a program that skeptics say can have little effect in the Islamic republic."The United States will actively confront the aggressive policies of the Iranian regime. At the same time, we will work to support the aspirations of the Iranian people for freedom and democracy in their country," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told a congressional budget hearing.Rice said the funds would be used to broadcast U.S. radio and television programs into Iran and pay for Iranians to study in America. She requested the money in a supplemental budget request for fiscal year 2006.Congress has already approved $10 million for such programs for the year, which begins October 1.Political analysts and Western diplomats are skeptical U.S. efforts to reach out to Iranians can work in a country where America is labeled the "Great Satan" and believed to be anti-Muslim, particularly because of a perception it favors Israelis over Palestinians.The United States, which cut diplomatic ties with Iran after its 1979 revolution, is locked in a standoff with the Islamic republic to curb what it suspects are programs to build a nuclear bomb.But the Bush administration has emphasized in recent weeks that it is not at odds with the people of Iran and said it wants to help them win freedoms from their government.Nuclear clashAt the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Rice said the Iranian government had increasingly isolated itself by pursuing nuclear programs."They have now crossed a point where they are in open defiance" of the international community, she said Wednesday.She told the committee the Bush administration has been examining the "full range of sanctions on Iran" and is also considering additional sanctions the United States could impose on its own, although international action would be more effective. Appearing before lawmakers, Rice gave no details. The United States has had broad sanctions on Iran since that country's 1979 Islamic revolution.Iran says its nuclear programs are for peaceful electricity generation.Rice said she will visit the Gulf region next week to discuss Iran's nuclear programs with Tehran's Arab neighbors. She did not specify which countries she will visit.A U.S. official has said Rice is expected to visit Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates and discuss the election victory of the Palestinian group Hamas and Muslim outrage at cartoons satirizing Prophet Mohammad.(end of article)The United States established democracy in Iraq. The Shiite Muslims control that democracy. The U.S. promoted Palestinian democracy and Hamas now controls that democracy.Now the U.S. is going to spend more money to promote a democracy in Iran. I can assure you that the Republicans and Democrats will not control democracy in Iran. The real question might be: what does the word "Democracy" have hidden behind it? Why do we not tell the truth?In ChristJeff

Democracy is another word for humanism. Its a great concept, its the best that humans have, but ultimately is got nothing to do with Christianity and it is a human philosophy which will fail. The way that President Bush and many Christians talk about Democracy reminds me of the eutopian dreamers of the late 19th century. Amen Frank - very well said I agree 110% - but I'm sure you already know you may have a hard time convincing others of this. Capitalism also fit in this category as humanism and a hollow philosophy of man. It is the best that man has, but it has it roots in sin - greed.The only hope for mankind is Christ, and the truth of this only further hammers home the view that politics is an impossible occupation for true Christians. The essence of politics is compromise. Its the only way that it works and "gridlock,' is avoided. Problem is, there is no compromise in true Christianity, only in "religion." What does that say about our current leaders?again - bravo!!! and duck!!! at the same time. In my opinion and I sure you would also agree in regards to our current leaders - they are religious at best, but true Christians - I don't think so - not with the compromise they participate in.

I would have to agree, all of this gets quite confusing very rapidly. Recently I heard a song that said "peace by way of war is like purity by way of fornication, it's like telling someone murder is wrong, and then showing them by way of execution"I think if anything it is time that the church should realize that it is not the job of the President(whoever he is) to evangelize, it is not the job of Hollywood to evangelize, but it is the job of every one who claims to be born of GOD to bear witness of Christ.We need to stop the sick idea that the media, politicians, or any other thing will save souls, and get off our duffs and be Christ.Okay soapbox is put away for now :-P

Democracy (I almost said "democrazy") and capitalism are humanistic and tainted by man's inherent greed, you guys are right.Interestingly enough, these days, democracy is the word the US uses for imperialism and world hegemony. There is also substantial evidence that "free trade" agreements are also designed (and have been so designed for a couple of decades) to establish American domination over the entire globe.So America is attempting to control planet earth polically, militarily (that should be obvious by now) and econmically. Some would say religiously as well....

Okay soapbox is put away for nowPlease take it back out again and use it often!!! This is the kind of stuff we ALL need to hear!

I see some here who understand and accept the world for what it is. But, what really amazes me is that there are so many people who choose to believe, in this case, the propaganda of spreading democracy will cure the world's ills. Do you see how easy it will be for the desolation of abomination to take hold of this world? Do you see the trees budding?How foolish is man, like sheep being led to the slaughter, that Satan has prepared. In ChristJeff

Recently a brother in our fellowship who used to be a shepherd of sorts(of sheep). He told me that to kill sheep, all you had to do was take a piece of twine(kite string), and simply place it around their neck. Not tightly but just so they know it's there. Then you straddle them, not putting weight on them, just straddling them. Then you take a sharp blade, and slit their throats, and they fall and die. They do not fight at all! Is this not how many of us are with Satan and his lies as they are but twine that like the twine around Samson could be broken easily? I fear brethren that it is time for the Church to come out from among this world.This world is nothing but props, smoke and mirrors, yet we(myself included) treat it as though it is reality. Let's pray for each other, let's love enough to share the message of repentance with people. Amen and amen

Rom.13[1] ... For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God ...Greetings in Christ Bro. Jeff, i haven't rambled on about a subject in a while but this one struck my interest, as so many of your posts do ... Isn't it good to know that no matter how chaotic things seem now or how out of control, especially in the world and particularly here in America with Pres. Bush's neo-conservative America's got to remain #1 in the world at all costs agenda, that our God in ALL His sovereignty is still sitting on His throne and in total control? ... This thought brings me exceeding comfort. The world events that are so rapidly transpiring these days do not cause me consternation or concern for personal safety, and neither am i questioning the hows and whys of how and why God does what He does concerning mankind anymore ... All in this arena with me now is, "Lord, Thou knowest" and "Lord, Thy will be done" ... All i know is according to Rom. 9, a chapter of scripture that i admittedly can't comprehend (nor do i try) as to it's message of pre-destination, God's already knows what His plan is for us and our world towards the bringing of His kingdom here on earth as it already is in heaven ... In Rom. 9 He speaks of vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, both of which in His utilization of such all point back to His divine and almighty attributes;Rom.9[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Nay, my consternation is not with a bunch of questions about His business with our world, it's governments, and it's political leaders, or why they do what they do, and why He allows it, or even orchestrates it ... But my question as one who knows that i'm a un-deserved vessel of mercy chosen by the Father to be given as a redeemed one to His Son (for Jesus did say that as many as come to Him are given Him by His Father) has become, "O.K. God, You've chosen me a vessel of Your mercy - What is it that You want me to do in Your choosing me" ... The things that are happening in the world today, particularly with America, is causing many folk, even saints, to become worried and faint of heart ... Not so with me, because the worse things seem to get for this old system of things the closer i see my/our deliverance getting even nearer ... My biggest concern in this seeming escalation toward God's appointed timing toward an end time culmination is "Lord, as a vessel of Your mercy what's my salt and light part in my lifetime toward the furtherance of Your Kingdom advancement ... please show me how to be Your most effective tool towards the harvesting of Your other vessels of mercy ... and finally if You have something specific and special (a ministry) for me to do towards this then please Lord make it plain to me" ...Bro Jeff you asked, "The real question might be: what does the word "Democracy" have hidden behind it? Why do we not tell the truth?"Please correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems to me that when Satan paraded ALL of the kingdoms of the world before Christ, America was also included in the bunch ... To me anything and everything that is not under the Theocratic government and governance of God is not of Him, but of the devil, tho i must say that i personally think that Britain and America have probably done the best job so far of balancing, if not masking, it's devilish element of government and governance behind a facade of a once pious religiosity ... Notice i didn't say Christianity because if both nations, peoples and governments had of truly been of Christ, England and any other so called Christian european government would never have indulged in the slave trade, would never have went to other continents and brutally colonized them in search of riches ... America herself would also have never come to this land and slaughter almost the entire race of the Red Man to say nothing of the ridiculous government mandated slaughter of the Buffalo to starve the Red Man ... If truly under Christ, America herself would also have never become intrenched in the slave trade and the forced labor of the Black Man for it's own selfish means of economic and political independence, nor would it have abused the Yellow Man in it's quest to build the trans-continental railroad, nor would it have traded in the physical bondage of it's Black population after the Civil War, to a most devestating psychological and economical bondage of exclusion by the greater society ... i could go on but i think my point is made ... i'm always amazed at how now in America there seems to be so many questions as to whether America is a Christian nation, and now more recently is Pres. Bush saved or not because he's gotten us in this war in Iraq ... First let me say that i don't believe anything transpires on this globe without God's permission or instituting, and to me if a thing passes and becomes history then apparently (to me) it was God's will ... Folk act like our current president is the only one who ever claimed Christ and did something that certainly didn't seem of Christ, when in fact if we search the entire history of Israel under Jehovah, and the so far history of every group, tongue, nation and government of folk (including America) who claim Christ, what we'll find is imperfect man attempting to be Christian (Christ-like), but falling often times hard into carnality ... Some of us need only to check our own Christ to carnality ratio on this SI forum to understand this point, for even Paul himself spoke of this terrible imbalance ... So what's the difference between Geoge Washington claiming Christ but up-holding slavery as a means to this nations financial independence, and George Bush claiming Christ and attempting to secure oil as a means for the continuance of American independence by this war in Iraq? ... What's the difference between all the presidents who followed Washington who were responsible for the government endorsed mass massacre of the Red Man to attain America in the first place, and our current presedential proffessor of Christ who's now over in the Olive Man's territory amassing collateral damage to those folk in order to keep America happily motoring? ... In God's eyes i don't think that He sees a difference, but yet He's allowed (some would believe even orchestrated) both, as well as so many other seemingly horrific events to transpire ... Bottom line for me is this, whether God allows or orchestrates world events and governments His outcome for us is all that matters and is playing out to His divine purpose whether we understand it or not ... It also seems to me that those of us who have the misfortune of being appointed/allowed to a place of governmental authority catch pure-T living hell from the likes of us that are governed when the Word says that we should bombard heaven in prayer for our leaders ... Then too as i've so often said before had American saints en-masse in the late 50's and early 60's exercised their God given right as American's to vote against the demonic crap that is now running rampant in the country, American wouldn't be so blatant now in the showing of the devil behind our national mask of Democracy ... But that didn't happen, tho those same saints who had problems with voting didn't have any with chasing our post war materialism, and so now it seems to me that America has become catalyst in an escalation of violence between the sons of Shem, Ham and Japheth, and the religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and ALL that has and is transpiring is (to me) God's will, and that His allowed time for satan, and the rule of the gentiles is reaching critical mass ... Personally as a nation i think America is on it's way to a very rude awakening and not because we're in this war, but because we saints in America have done such a slovenly job as light and salt because of our friendship with the world and our marrying into it's worldly minded (satan inspired) pursuits ... Again my own personal opinion but i don't think God is really overly concerned with Gentile wars or their massive casualty counts that ever increase with each war ... In fact during Israel's time God condoned their slaughtering of those Gentiles that were in the way of His will ... God used gentile nations all thru-out OT history to slaughter one another, and then to often slaughter Israel when she needed correction ... Seems to me that the only actual nation God was concerned about then, and still claims today is Israel, and that when it comes to we Gentiles the only ones of us that He's truly concerned about is we saints who come out of every nation, tribe and tongue, we who are collectively God's elect and choosen vessels of mercy, Christ universal Church and Bride, and even today many in both camps still come to horrific deaths in wars, etc ... Elie Weisel lost his faith in God over what happened in the Holocaust ... It short circuited his brain to think that God would allow such awfulness to happen to the Jews, so you know it was impossible for him to even fathom that God may have caused it ... It made me wonder if he had read the same OT i had because it wasn't the first time God put the hurt on Israel in such a horrific way, just as He's gonna put the hurt on this world as foretold in the Revelation ... But the hurt that's about to transpire on this side of the Trib, the economic hurt that's about to affect the globe and in particularly we over pampered, saved and un-saved alike, soft, cushy 5% of the earths population who consume 25% of it's energy that's gonna take so many by surprise ... It makes me sad to wonder how many will fall away from Christ because their prosperity gospel bubble popped ... But it makes me overjoyed to think that out of such an event REVIVAL may break forth ... i totally believe both events are about to transpire ...And why can't we tell the truth? ... The devil can't tell the truth, whether he's operating thru a government, govenor, or governed individual as most of us are ... We all know that politicians don't tell the entire truth, in fact it's said that politicians can't tell the truth, that's why my prayers go out to any politician who claims Christ and that thankless job too! ... But in the meanwhile i think most us individual Christians strain at gnats by focusing in on the deficits of our political and religious leaders, so that we can feel better about swallowing the camel of neglecting our own personal responsibilties to the latter, and our greater responsibility to God to do all that will propigate and promote His light and salt wherever He has placed us ... It's been my experience in life so far, that folk, especially we saints, would rather sit back and complain rather that get out into the fray and be an ambassador for Christ and Christian ways ... As Ravenhill said, "We'd rather form a committee (lets get together and complain) than form a commitment (let's first be a personal light and then a collective shining city on a hill) ... i put myself at the head of this problem and have therefore come to a point of stopping asking God "Why"?, but "HOW can i be of His ultimate service in WHAT - He would have me do"? ... i've been giving much thought to the following scripture in light of this old world we live in ...Isa.46[8] Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:i think i've rambled on far to long here bro. Jeff ... Have a blessed weekend!

dont take this the wrong way, but I thing God has just spoken on this topic, through rahman. i have been pierced by these words and may God bless you.

Hello...!I am so amazed at people using their freedom to complain about democracy -- when their freedom is provided because we have a democracy that allows it. Democracy, like all forms of government, can be either good or bad. Democracy is simply a form of government where the actual government consists of the people who consent to be governed. It allows the people to have a say (even if it is just a single vote) when a matter is brought before them. America is blessed to have had a government that was created by a deeply religious and moral group of founding fathers. Many of our ancestors left nations that had state or national religions. So the first guaranteed freedom that was included in the Bill of Rights was that of religion and expression. This insured that a single denomination or group did not dictate the policies of the government or the practices and beliefs of the people. A democracy in another part of the world may not include the Christian heritage that is enjoyed in the United States. A democracy in the Muslim world will include Islamic references. But remember, democracy does not always translate to freedom. The United States Constitution protects the rights of all its citizens -- not just the majority or minorities. This is liberty -- that is supported because of democracy. But in some instances, the majority in a democracy might prefer to limit rights. In fact, some democracies can serve to limit freedom. This is the "democracy" that you see in Iran. It is the hope of the U.S. Government that the democracy in Iraq will be a pure democracy -- one that will protect the ideas and views of all people regardless of race, faith or political beliefs. Every time I read my Bible in the United States, every time I tell others about Jesus, and every time I attend meetings with other believers, I am thankful for the liberty provided by our Constitution. I do not mistake democracy for my faith. But I am so thankful that this form of democracy has stood the test of time. It is sad that many of us do not make the most under the circumstances by which we live. Do we share the Lord in our nations that allow us? If we don't -- then shame on us!Sadly, the freedom of religion is coming under attack more and more in the United States. Groups like many in Hollywood, the media and the ACLU attack or openly mock Christianity with more and more frequency. On a side note, I would be very careful before I make such accusations that openly question the spiritual condition of President Bush. I don't know where he stands with God -- but neither does anyone else. Why should Christians join the often Christ-hating media that attacks the President daily? If you don't agree with him -- be thankful that you are not under the same scrutiny of faith. If you were the President, then someone somewhere will find something about which to question your salvation. And instead of talking about or complaining about him -- why not join us in prayer for him? He is the elected leader of the most powerful nation in history. He needs our prayers. Why don't we join in prayer that the Lord does an awesome work in his heart and life? :-)

bro Chriswhat is freedom though?how does the freedom we promote via spreading of democracy fit with what the Lord says? if we are free to do as we wish is that not bondage to sin? the freedom we seem to hold most dear is that which comes from a national independance rather than that which comes from freedom in Christ. we don't need rights bro. the early church didn't have them and they were used of God to turn the world upside down. i think in some regards the idea of being entitled to rights has helped to make us impotent in terms of being salt and light to the world. we tend to see ourselves as people from whatever country we are from first and then christians second or somewhere down the line. we are Christians first and whatever else next, in fact we're Christians period and the rest really is of no consequence because to be in Christ is to have it all. i'm sure we all know what democracy is but let it be clear that the way God rules is not a democracy, it's totalitarian, God's in control, there is no deliberation on what He passes down, either one gets with the program or you deal with the consequences. look at how the Lord dealt with Israel, after the golden calf issue, the Lord sent a plague on the people.He told them not to make any graven images or have any other gods but Him, they didn't comply, there was no discussion of it, the Lord sent a plague right quick.democracy is humanism. if we were a Christian nation, our type of government would be a theocracy or more theocratic. there are some benefits which come with democracy i'll admit. but it seems as though (to me anyway) the debate and deliberation afforded us by democracy has crept into our practice of the Faith as it pertains to the Lord's word and how we ought to conduct ourselves and the like and that is a tool of the enemy. i don't know Bush's spiritual state or standing with the Lord but i know he's there because God put Him there for whatever God needs done. one could argue both ways that bush is saved or not. i think he is, i admire his candor as far as speaking about his faith despite the many haters out there. we enjoy many luxuries here afforded us by democracy but in short order it will all evaporate the Lord tells me. when our position at the top of the world is brought low and our wealth, military might and beloved system of government comes crashing down (and it will) what do we do then? at that point it won't be about putting God first coz there won't be anything else left, it'll be about putting God only and that's the sort of spiritset/mindset we need to have. when our rights are taken from us, we'll know for sure where those who're sold out to God are at coz them people will be the only ones chillin while everybody else is freaking out...

Hi IRONMAN...!Actually, I was agreeing that democracy in some nations could actually be dangerous to minority groups. But LIBERTY is often associated with democracy -- and rightfully so. In my opinion, democracy can only be good if it comes with certain inalienable liberties. As an undergrad, I read some of Thomas Jefferson's writings. While his spiritual condition is often questioned by some modern historians -- by today's standards he would be preaching on television. ;) But one of the things that he stated concerned liberty. When deciding upon what form of government this new nation should implement, Jefferson reasoned that regardless of the form, liberty was essential. He refused the notion of a theocracy or a monarchy. His reasoning? Christ never forced anyone to accept him. But of course, Jefferson reasoned, there are eternal consequences for a refused acceptance of Christ. Why should a government force a people to accept the beliefs of its leaders? But a Constitution would allow the law to prohibit undermining the government. And actually, this is also evident in spiritual matters. The entire plan of Creation was to allow man to choose Christ out of our own free will, rather than by being forced to. The Lord does not "force" us to follow him. He gave us the will. It is most pleasing to God that we choose him -- even though the world offers us pleasures, distractions and lusts. Should the rest of the world be introduced to democracy? Democracy is simply the voice of the people in their government. But even more important than democracy is the need for personal liberties. My sister's brother-in-law is a missionary in a Muslim nation. He can only work there after being listed as a "teacher." He was forced to register his Bible when he entered the country (like guns are registered in the U.S.). He was warned that he cannot take it out in the view of Muslims. He told me that the greatest difficulty in winning people to Christ was the fact that people are legally prohibited from converting to a religion other than the state form of Islam.That Islamic state has a totalitarian form of government. Does that nation need democracy? Only if that democracy is also combined with liberty. But can a free democracy be achieved in such a state? It worked in Japan following World War II. Japan went from a theistic totalitarian form of government to a free democracy in a matter of a decade. In 1940, it was illegal to publicly practice Christianity. In 1945, citizens of Japan were granted freedom to worship. Today, there are many believers in Japan (over a million) -- and those believers are not prohibited from practicing their faith in Christ. Many more believers left Japan during what was known as the Japanese Diaspora.I agree with what you said about President Bush. There have been several believers on this website that have publicly demeaned, criticized, slandered, and questioned the salvation of President Bush. The President publicly professes faith in Christ -- and sometimes shares his testimony of meeting Christ. Is he truly saved? I don't know -- and I don't believe that the Lord would even tell me. Members of Hollywood and the media continue to mock the President with great delight. Some mock his actions -- but many actually mock and hate him because of his stated beliefs (against abortion, against homosexual marriage, etc...). I believe that he is a smarter man than the media and liberals claim. He earned a BA from a liberal school (with a GPA a point higher than John Kerry), and then went on to another liberal school where he earned a MBA (making him the first President to do so). I don't know the President, but I know some people that do. They said that he is a quiet, private man. They also said that he feels awkward in the public, and it is reflected in his public appearances -- leading the critical mind to accuse him of being unintelligent. But they also told me that he is deeply sincere in his faith and yearning for a relationship with God. That is why it is quite disheartening to see people that profess Christ mock him so easily or question his relationship with God -- since they do not know him personally. Regardless of whether or not people agree with his policies -- there should always be humility in our speech about him (and prayer in our closets). :-)

bro Chriswhat has liberty to do with our practice of the faith? what fellowship does the invention of a governmental system by the ancient greeks have to do with the Lord's Church? it seems to me that whether in a democracy or dictatorship the bottom line is to practice the Faith. it's easier here because we don't experience persecution as our brothers in Asia YET though. i think the freedom/liberty democracy affords us is a hollow worldly one which is different from the freedom we have in Christ. as it pertains to free will, that's a complicated issue. Christ says not only "whosoever will..." but also "as many as you have given me" which shows that God the Father is the one who calls people to Christ. it's not free will in the way that we think of free will (being able to do whatever) but it's being able to do only what the Lord allows in His sovereign will. The fact that God's sovereignty in all things is not taught much is probably an underlying cause of our poor perception of what free will really is. we are God's elect and that speaks more of Him choosing us first than the other way around. since we know a bit about democracy we can say to elect is to choose right?you said Japan had made it illegal to pratice Christianity for a time but that says to me that there were some who practised it anyway under penalty of the law. which says to me we don't need the rights democracy affords us in all truth.about the president i think he is saved. i don't agree with all his policies though but the Lord is working all things for our benefit and so that His plan is seen through. for instance people talk about the war in Iraq being one on terror, wmd etc, there're more to it and the Lord has us there to set up whatever it is that He's about to do next.