The Last Days, Past or Present?

I actually grew up in a church that firmly believed that we are living in the last days and that the Lord could "come" to take his church away at any moment! I remember coming home from school one day (in middle school) and no one was home... My mom and brother and sister were usually home when I got there... It felt a little eerie walking through the house saying "Mom?" "Mom?" I immediately thought that maybe the rapture had taken place and my family had been taken away... I called my Dad's work and no answer. Called my Grandparents and no answer...Finally I called the church (at this point getting very scared and panicky) and my Assistant Pastor answered. In a shaky voice I asked "Is my Mom there?" My Assistant Pastor, being the quick thinker he was (and a well-known jokester), immediately - and ironically - replied "She was taken in the rapture." I thought for a few moments and said, "That can't be..." "Why not?" he asked. "Well, because you'd be gone too..." He laughed, and replied, "I guess you're right...!" It ended up my Mom was there at the church for a workday of some sort. Many of us growing up being taught to expect the Lord's coming "any day now" have had similar experiences thinking he had come when in fact it was just another "false alarm."Since then God has shown me a much more biblically acurate view of the "Coming of the Lord" and "The last days." When we take scripture word-for-word and rightly divide it, we can see at least two indisputable facts on this subject:1.The Bible teaches that Jesus and his disciples lived during the "last days" :Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams…1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.Mal 4:5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful. 6 And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!Compare to:Mat 17:10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?' 11 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things, 12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.' 13 Then understood the disciples that concerning John the Baptist he spake to them.2.Jesus plainly promised that his coming would take place within the lifetime of his twelve disciples:Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory…Mat 24:34 Verily I say to you, This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.Mark 13:26 and then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory;Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall in no wise pass away, till all these things take place.Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.Jhn 21:21 Peter having seen this one, saith to Jesus, 'Lord, and what of this one (John)?'Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith to him, 'If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die, yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die,Jhn 21:23 But 'If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee?'The more I study, it seems that mainstream Christianity today has twisted or explained away these scriptures for years, and has somehow forced all these events to be yet in our own future (now, nearly 2000 years later!)...It seems that according to scripture, the last days were not the last days of the earth as we know it, but rather the last days of that age ("aion" - the old covenant Mosaic age!). We cannot blindly trust the words of men -- we must do what God commissioned us to do:1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.And simply because a doctrine is mainstream, and is taught by everyone else, doesn't necessarily make it true! We must be good "Bereans":Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, (to see) whether those things were so.Anon

Hia Healing Waters Anon,I've got a Present for you :-D .https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6767&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0There's a crazy woman posting on that thread.Name - GrannieAnnieShe's a little nuts on this subject, so look out for her.She's not wired too tight. Or is wired too tight ... not quite sure which.You decide. Hope you'll like the Present.PEACE ;-)

I don't understand all the happy faces and I couldn't find any gifts, but I was able to post there. Thanks

"aion" - the old covenant Mosaic age!Aion is the greek word for Age. The word 'world' can be used here but it denotes the whole world and it's not referring to the whole world it was referring to that generation long ago, the Jewish nation. The Jewish nation consisted of the southern kingdom. We have heard our Pasters speak in the pulpit about what a particular passage says in the greek, this is one of them. The end of the Mosiac age was 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem where everything was destroyed, all documents including their geneaology gone, burnt by Jewish rebels within the city before the Romans got to it, according to Josephus.For example;Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. The word 'world' using strong's number 165 it says this: 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity2) the worlds, universe3) period of time, ageI hope I have answered your question.Karl

Hi HW,I'm sorry you didn't see "the present" in all of those pages .... but I can see by the answer that you left there, that you basically do the same mistake that most do when studying eschatology.... a verse pulled from here and there, rather than to take The Whole of what is "written" on this subject, from both the O.T. and the New.The other obvious that came within your post, is that you could not have read that thread.You are even ignoring all the Ante-Nicene Church Father's writings of a Future Tense time of testing of the Saints and in that they all but quoted Jesus, Paul, Peter and John in all their writings, without contradiction.I do not believe in a Pre-Trib rapture as you could see in that thread, but DO clearly see a Resurrection of both the dead in Christ and those who Alive and Remain until He comes.A simple reading of just 2 Peter 3 would do you well to just begin with.And Mike left you a very good post to respond to also.Thank you brother.And God Bless you in your 'future' studies.Your sis Annie

Annie, I did see your present. But I too was very much in the camp of the Post Tribulation Rapture theory, and these are just theories, no one really knows the truth of these subjects[ie; pre, mid and post]Revelations, prophecy is a subject that I would rather leave on the back burner. I am more into love and picking flowers, and being free and simple. However when you know that something is truth, just like you believe that all these things are in our future is truth, I cannot shut up about it. When you see Brothers and Sisters speak about the "last days" and it's plain as day in the word that when Peter spoke on the day of Pentecost that his "last days" was then, how can we put those words to mean something in our future?For example, did Jesus really come and die on the cross nearly 2000 years ago, or was those just words that were written down so that we can expect Him in our future? NOOOOOOOOO, thats silly. But it's just as equally silly to take the words of Paul and Peter and those who spoke of the last days in the Old Testement to mean something that is afar off in the future when they spoke it in their present tense.I will tell you exactly what is the problem with our generation not believing any of this being in the past. The number one problem is visually seeing it happen. The Kingdom of God would not come by observation, the Kingdom of God is within you and I. Jesus Christ is that Kingdom and He came in His Kingdom, in us.People want to visually see with their natural eyes them taking off in the rapture flying away to be with the LORD when in fact the LORD is within their innermost being thru the operation of the Holy Ghost. This is the same problem that Jesus had with those in His day, they were looking for the son of David to remove the Romans and live in some paradise on the earth, that was their mind set, thats what they were expecting. But those who saw the real McCoy were not seeking a land filled with rocks and dirt, but their country was in Jesus Christ their Promise that would come, that would raise them from the dead(Matt27:52-53, Dan12:2) and take them into paradise whose builder and maker is God. Can anyone hear that? "lets these words sink down into your ears...Luke 9:44John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. But what was it about man that God was mindful of? It was the fact that He longed to be in man to walk in man. Isn't that what happened on the day of Pentecost? Thats why the angels rejoice when a soul is saved, God has come into him. Isn't that wonderful?Annie said:a verse pulled from here and there, rather than to take The Whole of what is "written" on this subject, from both the O.T. and the New.This is a false statement, I do not take willy nilly verses out of the bible, thats what cults do. Denominational churches take one verse and wrap their whole lives around it while turning a blind eye to the rest. With the Holy Spirit in my life we can take the whole bible and show that Jesus Christ came in His week and fulfilled to the letter using the whole entire bible, because all the bible points to Jesus Christ.All I am doing is throwing out the Primer. No sense in arguing with me, do your own math and search the scriptures. Search out and ask the LORD and WAIT on the LORD to give you an answer on who the 'he' is speaking about in Daniel 9:27Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.If you want to go with the flow of the majority of believers to mean that this 'he' is an antichrist, than continue on in your ignorance, but if you wait on the LORD and let Him speak to you and not let anything crowd your mind with other things to reason away the voice of the LORD speaking to you.I realize that I am rocking the boat, but we must realize too that God has been restoring the church since the reformation. The word was not lost, but the experince of that word was. When the reformation started the truth that was restored to the church was the "The Just Shall Live By Faith" was herelded. That went on until the restoration of the first doctrine of baptism when people were submerged and not just the sprinkling of Rome. Hebrews 6 has these foundational truths. The second baptism to be restored was the Baptism of the holy Ghost in the early part of the 20th century. Than the powers of God in the gifts of the spirit were restored, thru the laying on of hands. Guess whats next to be restored to the church? "Resurrection"! it was once experinced, it shall be again. Does anyone believe that? "Let us move on to perfection".Karl

Healingwaters wrote: All I am doing is throwing out the Primer. No sense in arguing with me, do your own math and search the scriptures. Search out and ask the LORD and WAIT on the LORD to give you an answer on who the 'he' is speaking about in Daniel 9:27If you want to go with the flow of the majority of believers to mean that this 'he' is an antichrist, than continue on in your ignorance, but if you wait on the LORD and let Him speak to you and not let anything crowd your mind with other things to reason away the voice of the LORD speaking to you.Annie's reply: :-D I liked this half sentence best ... "No sense in arguing with me..."I've never been "quite" that bold to come right out and put it like that .... but now that you've put it like that ... roll up your sleeves bro .... you've done more than just "rock the boat" :-? Do you realize you've gone the Preterist way ?Well, let's just start with what Peter said at Pentecost .... that was answered on page 3 of that thread link above and I'm heading over to that thread now to stick just a bit of the ECFs in.Thanks Karl, sincerely, I needed this. I've been going brain dead lately. This really does help me.Honestly.Thank you. Annie :-)

Been there my dear brother, I don't just use one scripture, I use them all. Lets use them all.I could write on this subject forever, but I don't want to waste your time if your not interested in knowing something that will make you free.There are millions of Christians who follow the traditional theory of the endtime teachings, all the cults follow a similiar outcome even the world has their nostrodamus that even Christians have embraced as some prophet.Very few know this way, in fact most of those who are long since died in centuries past could tell us that these events that we speak today were and are in the past.The history of the Rapture theory is based upon a young woman in our recent history by the name of Margaret MacDonald from Scotland who prophsied in the early part of the 1900 this teaching that all the church world accepts as truth. But before this teaching there was the belief that all these things that were prophesied by the prophets concerning Jesus and His times and the Jewish people all happened back then.But just as Jesus said to His audience in His day, "You make void the scriptures because of your traditions." Shall I continue or not?Karl

Karl, did you say anything yet about when do we get "resurrected" ? As Paul spoke of ....1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Brother Mike saidthe difficulty I have found is in want of explanation of what is to be expected from where we now stand.Not everyone is a Prophet to know the future, but there have been a couple of good reliable sources of what has taken place over the last few years and one of them being David Wilkerson's fulfilled book The Vision.Every Christian on the face of the planet would like to know what is happening today and what will happen tomorrow. Preterists have the same desire as you do, however, their desire is also to place fulfilled scripture in its proper place. In regards to the future we can look to the Word for our examples. Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.Our nation, just like all other nations who forget God are going to be turned into hell. Are they not turning into hell today? Look at them, murdering babies, homosexuality being legalized, pornography being piped into homes, the list goes on and on. Not all countries are like this, the smaller countries, the ones that we think to be insignificant God is going to bless and is blessing. They may have war, famine, and disease, but it's inhabitants are crying out to God saying such things as:Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.Gods word is always fulfilling itself. There will always be antichrists rising, we have many today, just as we had for thousands of years. But the specifics of bible prophecy in regards to the antichrist rising during that time 2000 years ago will never happen in our future. Someone mentioned in another forum that Christians need to go thru the tribulation. I disagree, we don't need to go thru THEE tribulation, but rather we who live GODLY IN THIS LIFE SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION.Mike you said that you were involved in the Word of Faith movement and had a bad experience with that, and you have counted it wrong. Somewhere in your search you received a revelation that what you have been hearing and reading is wrong. Can I not do the same thing with this teaching?, In my search as a [going with the flow] Post Tribulation rapture student, I came to the revelation that what I had believed for many many years wasn't holding water. It kept changing new things would crop up and more was being added to the teaching. When I look back at what "I used" to believe, It amazes me as to how I believed that in the first place. Thats what the Word of Faith did to me, it sounded good, it looked good, they use all the same glossy scriptures we use to prove foundational teachings of Gods word, but there was always in itch in my spirit that I couldn't get scratched. There was always in itch about Pre, Mid and Post Amil, there was something that wasn't right. When I read one of Kenneth E. Hagin's book the Name of Jesus where he states that Jesus became demon possessed in our stead, it was there that my itch was relieved. I tore that book up and threw it out. For those who have this book it's in chapter 3, you have to read between the lines, as he doesn't come right out and say it. Satan doesn't come right out and say lies, he laces them with truth.So, I am like you, I am a seeker of truth. I realize that what I say concerning this subject is hard to bear, I understand that. It will only take a willing mind to drop tradition and recieve what God wants us to know.Did you know that every Christian is in darkeness about somethings. How do I know?, Ask yourself, do you know the complete word of God? Do you know all the hidden truths, the mysteries, do you know what lurks in the dark? Do you know your own heart and what may lie there?I hope all of you have said no. However the good news is that we can know because we have a heavenly Father that wants to reveal them to us.Karl

Brother Mike said:There is a whole host of other questions raisedMike this is where it all begins right here. This is the mark of student who is searching. When you have someone who doesn't ask questions all they do is just dish it out without ever wanting to learn anything, they are set in thier ways. The diciples were constantly asking Jesus questions. Why? They were followers, thats what followers do. When you think you got your doctrine all down pat and you don't have anymore questions, thats the time that one should be afraid. Look at Peter, he thought that that Gentiles were still dogs and that you don't sit or eat with them. He got a rude awakening. You see he stopped asking questions, and God knocked him down and told him that which I have cleansed don't you call a dog. Pride is a rotten thing to have.When studing any truth, the only place to start is at the foundation. No sense in starting at the top and work down. Many people who study eschatology start at the book of Revelation, that is the wrong place to start, because in order to understand that book you'll need the Primer, the Old Testement.Lets look at something first, and this is not meant in any way for one to tear apart, it's a foundational truth that is nice to see unfold. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.Now notice something here, he says, "Seal the Book, even to the time of the end". These are your key words, there are other key words, but we are just going to look at these.Now between the books of Malachi and Matthew there was a time when God stopped speaking to Israel because they became stiffnecked and they no longer wanted to hear God. So the angel tells Daniel all that will happen during this time and you can read all that history in Daniel chap11. After this period of silence from God, John the baptist is born, to prepare the way of the LORD as the land was filled with darkness both John and Jesus called it a perverse generation. Johns light representing the moon (the moon represents the Old Testement, the law and the prophets were until John) shown in the dark was preparing for Jesus the sun who was coming with healing in his wings. And Jesus did that didn't He? Mike I love this subject, I can't help but see Jesus in all of this, Praise the LORD!Jesus has now come in his week that Daniel spoke of in Dan 9:24-27 He came to confirm the covenent etc...What I wanted to get at was "the time of the end" when the seal would be broken. Look at this,Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.What Daniel sealed Jesus Revealed. He opened it, "even the time of the end".There is much more meat here, but this is a good starting point to munch on, Jesus is truly LORD. Karl