Wow... what a shame!

THis is not an attempt to re-start a thread that the mods locked. But I have to say that I started that other thread about the RCC yesterday, but was unable to look at it again until about 5 minutes ago... and was shocked to see that in about 12 hours the personal attacks and hot-headedness took place anyway despite my begging everyone to keep it civil or not participate.What a shame! We should be able to discuss these issues in love and grace. That thread could have been a really good and educational thread, but certain ones have to ruin it for others.I'm pretty upset about this.If you cant talk about these issues without losing control... then find something else to do on the internet, or start your own blog.Krispy

Sorry about that Krispy. I really don't underdstand what went wrong. I thought I was being very civil. I never accused anyone of anything. My questions were questions I would ask anyone, or even share of my own experience. I was merely trying to make a point about the topic.

I had no intention of writing such a long post, and I think I may have re-started the previous thread. But I got on a roll, and some of this just came out of me. If the moderators do not wish to have these words on here, please let me know and I will edit this post for you.Thanx,KrispyHere is what I wrote:Well, my comments were not directed at everyone. One thing that happens when this kind of topic comes up is that people tend to associate honest opinions as hate-speech. For instance, if I say that "IF Mother Teresa was putting her faith in the Catholic doctrines for her salvation, then she died without salvation", someone will always get upset and offended by that and call me hateful.I'm not being hateful when I say that. I'm merely paraphrasing God's Word when it says:Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God...Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I do not sit in judgement over anyone's salvation. However, when it comes the Pope John Paul or Mother Teresa, we can read their writings and hear their voices as they proclaimed their salvation thru the rites of the Catholic Church and thru Mary... but not thru faith in Jesus alone, as scripture declares: Rom 5:1,2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. The Pope and Mother Teresa had faith... but not in Jesus atoning blood alone.Is this hate-speech? No! It's God's Word, and God is love. And sometimes love is tough. Truth hurts. But it sure beats a lie.It's these same types of attitudes that cause some countries to consider Biblical preaching against certain moral sins "hate-speech". Thats the world talking, and I wouldnt expect anything less. But now we hear this in the CHURCH.Now, as to the accusation that I was comparing the Catholic Church to homosexuals. I was not. What I said was that joining hands with unrepentent sinners in ministry makes as much sense as joining hands with the RCC in ministry. I wasnt comparing the RCC to homosexuals. I was saying that if you have a group that is diametrically opposed to the God of the Bible, why in the world would you join with them to do ministry??Read the scriptures:Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.(I guess Paul would be accused of hate-speech by reproving those who are in error)2Co 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? (Ever notice all the idols in a Catholic Church?? - Krispy) for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 1Ti 6:3,4 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings. Of course... many Christians are ignorant of the truth behind the Catholic Church. But here are a few of the doctrines that we Bible Believers hold dear, but the Catholic Church rains down curses on us for believing:DECLARATIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENTSIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 1).FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that in the Catholic Church penance is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ the Lord for reconciling the faithful of God as often as they fall into sin after baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 1).FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation; or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human contrivance, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 7).TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that it is a deception to celebrate masses in honor of the saints and in order to obtain their intercession with God, as the Church intends, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 5).TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."Now... I ask you all... which is hate-speech? Krispy

Robert... Thanks, and easy-believism is something that I have spoken on before as well. I am equally frustrated by that.Notice in all that I wrote I did not "bash" anyone. I speak strongly against the entity, or the institution if you will, of the RCC. But we cant "bash" Catholics. But we should speak the truth. We should never hold back from shining the light of truth... even tho someone may be offended.I have a plaque on our wall in our house that says this:“I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!” - William TyndaleMy wife's friend who is Catholic has seen this before, yet she is not offended by it. Besides, it's in my house. I'm not offended when we go to their house and they have pictures of the Pope on the wall... it's their house.But should we shy away in order to not offend?Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. The cross of Christ is an offense! Of course we should not be offensive in our presentation... in that, I mean obnoxious. And on a forum like this we all read and decipher each other's posts thru our own eyes. Many times people are offended when they shouldnt be. I know for a fact that if those who get offended when I speak strongly against something had a chance to talk to me face to face they would not be offended by me as a person.We have to walk a fine line on this forum. I've learned that the hard way. I've offended some needlessly in the past, but I have put that behind me. I will speak the truth, but if folks would slow down and catch the spirit in which I write, I think many times they will have a different impression... and may actually understand me better.Krispy

but not enough to save you, just like Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc.Now there is an interesting thought... when we discuss the JW's and the Mormons erroneous doctrines on here, thats not considered hate-speech. Why is that? Why is it only hate-speech if we speak against the heresies of the RCC?Krispy

Well... I originally did not intend this to re-start the old thread, but I guess I'm to blame for re-starting it anway.All I ask is that everyone be civil!! Both sides. Let's talk about this like mature adults and believers... or I'll be the first one to request this thread be locked too.So far so good, folks... Krispy

I bet you never thought you'd see the day KK.Well, if we all can set our emotions aside (easier for us guys than it is the gals) and discuss it from a Biblical perspective, there really isnt anything we cant discuss calmly. Sometimes people are too sensitive, and sometimes people are not sensitive enough.Krispy

Having been raised Catholic, may I suggest some writings that I read about 20 years ago and haven't been able to re-locate until this link was posted on SI....They're only $7.00 for the set by Keith Green http://www.rarechristianbooks.com/His Love.Annie

Phebe, can I tell you a story that I've never shared here on SI ?First I want to congratulate you on your baby bird :-D .... I have two grandchildren that God has blessed me to be able to see. I was even blessed to see my daughter pregnant with them ... by pictures of her only, but there's much to explain regarding why this is such a miracle.You see, my Mom left my wonderful Dad with us five kids when I was two months old.Because my poor dad couldn't find anyone to stay with an infant ... he could only find a couple that was willing to live there with him and the children if they were older .... so I had to be shipped out. It was Not my dad's fault and it broke his heart irreparably.Anyhow, to make a long story short, by the time I was 13, I was in my 5th home and had been abused and made to feel unwanted in each of those 5 homes.So when I met a nice young boy, who also had no parents, we fell in love and wanted to get married because we were the only love that we knew in our lives.I knew my Dad would not let me marry at 16 years old, so I always dreamed, since I was about 5 years old of having a husband and "a daughter".I thought, if we could have "a daughter", then my Dad would have to let us get married besides, even at that age.Well, after dating for two years, I realized I was crazy to think something like that and saw that this relationship was not for the good, so I broke up with the young man.But what I didn't know when I broke up with him, was that I had conceived in the midst of that "plan" of mine, but now he was mad and gone and wouldn't marry me.My dad sent me off to a Home for unwed mothers and I was forced to sign her up to an Adoption Agency.When I was still in the Maternity ward of the Hospital, the agency came in while I was still groggy from the anesthesia and had me to sign my child away.When I woke up more fully, I got out of bed to go to the window to see my baby. When I saw "her" I broke in a million pieces. I came back to my room, where my room mates husband was visiting. He had a camera and asked did I want a picture of my baby that he would mail to me at home, after he'd get the roll developed, with the pictures of their own baby .... I said yes of course.But the Nurse behind the window caught us and could not by law allow that.The day I had to leave the hospital, I had to be physically escorted out because of my hysteria, as I just wanted to see her one more time, but really did not by any means want to leave without her. My arms felt so empty as they took me to the car. I walked back wards, in case she would be coming out too, with the Agency lady, crying all the way.I cried for 11 years, until my husband got me to learn how to talk about her without breaking down.When I got married in 79, I called the Agency again, and told them my new name so she could find me someday.I'd call whenever and they'd tell me what they could, about how she was.Finally, in Jan. of 1998 I couldn't wait anymore to see her. I asked the Lord, please, she's 29 ... where is she ? I can't wait anymore.In August of that same year, I got a letter from the Agency that she wanted my permission to contact me. Well, talk about Hysterics. My husband thought we had won the million dollars or something, and I told him, No it's something much better than that.Anyhow, we met and became instant best friends, like twins separated at birth. She did not know the Lord and was living with a not yet divorced man who drank and did drugs.I told her about Jesus, and told her, I brought you into this world and even if you get mad at me and not want to see me again, I must bring you to Him.After two years, she left the guy and came to Jesus. She at first was a Protestant ... but soon after, an old boy friend of hers, a Catholic theologian started courting her.She converted to Catholicism and they were married. And she's given me two beautiful grand babies.What do I think about her converting ... as I've said, I was raised Catholic and my whole family still is ... but about her personally, I feel bad she believes now in Purgatory and a few things like that, but it has not stopped us from talking about Jesus and I try to keep it there with our conversations, because she did meet Him, in the sense that one would in true conversion and Salvation.She believes I'm saved. That's nice, huh ? Ha.I believe she still knows the Lord.So, to end this story and why I'm telling you all of this .....I sure hope you won't stop coming to SI because of anything I say.He loves you and so do I.Annie Oh, this may explain why "Grannie Annie" to those who've wondered.Oh and another P.S. She is my only child. And I told her I was glad of that because she deserved to have my sole attention. :-D