Having a millstone around a neck

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GaryE Feb 22, 2006

The following quote was from a previous thread.………………………………{Quote}I feel that we are beginning to talk less and less loving Jesus and more and more about theological correctness. I, for one, have other things to do and would like to bow out gracefully if that is possible....................................................I wonder how many people come on this forum looking for Jesus or just having come to the Lord, read a few posts and then leave for good.When Jesus spoke about the dividing of the sheep and the goats, he said it was those that did or didn't do it to the least of these that did it unto me. I wonder how many theologically correct people will be on the wrong side. Also, how many of those that I think would be on the wrong side that will end up on the right side.Jesus took a child and said that when a person has offended the least of these it is better to have a millstone around his neck. It seems to me that a person who offends a babe in Christ isn't going to fair any better.

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lastblast Feb 22, 2006

when a person has offended the least of these it is better to have a millstone around his neck.If you look up the greek word for "offend", it is: skandalizo (#4624) and means: to entrap, to trip up, entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure.I personally believe Jesus is speaking about PROTECTION from sin, enticing to sin. I don't think He meant that they shouldn't be offended by us speaking on "hard" topics. We should be speaking with grace towards one another, being a good example of speech and conduct to the New believer, but new believers need to be challenged and fed so they can grow. This site provides LOTS of good food........I must say this concerning SI: It is one of the LEAST carnal Christian sites I have ever visited, so if a new brother or sister gets "scared off", I am very surprised by that. The majority of posters here appear very mature in the faith, or at least have a good handle on their tongue and emotions. That is not the case with most "Christian" forums. Blessings in Him, Cindy

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GaryE Feb 23, 2006

Please forgive me for using these numbers and making a long and hard to read post.Luk 9:46 Then1161 there arose1525 a reasoning1261 among1722 them,846 which5101 of them846 should be1498 greatest.3187 Luk 9:47 And1161 Jesus,2424 perceiving1492 the3588 thought1261 of their846 heart,2588 took1949 a child,3813 and set2476 him846 by3844 him,1438Luk 9:48 And2532 said2036 unto them,846 Whosoever3739, 1437 shall receive1209 this5124 child3813 in1909 my3450 name3686 receiveth1209 me:1691 and2532 whosoever3739, 1437 shall receive1209 me1691 receiveth1209 him that sent649 me:3165 for1063 he that is5225 least3398Greek for 3398, http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html Pronunciation Guidemikros {mik-ros'} including the comparative mikroteros {mik-rot'-er-os}TDNT Reference\tRoot WordTDNT - 4:648,593\tapparently a primary wordPart of Speech\tadj\tOutline of Biblical Usage1) small, little a) of size: hence of stature, of length b) of space c) of age: less by birth, younger d) of time: short, brief, a little while, how little! e) of quantity: i.e. number, amount f) of rank or influenceThe above verses are parallel verses to the verses Mathew chapter 18 that speak of offending little ones.………………………………………………………………………………………………Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding,1161 lest3363 we should offend4624 them,846 go4198 thou to1519 the3588 sea,2281 and cast906 a hook,44 and2532 take up142 the fish2486 that first4413 cometh up;305 and2532 when thou hast opened455 his846 mouth,4750 thou shalt find2147 a piece of money:4715 that1565 take,2983 and2532 give1325 unto them846 for473 me1700 and2532 thee.4675,Jesus continues through the next chapter and speakes about offenses. Cindy, in the next group of verses is the Strongs word for offence that you spoke about. Notice how the illustration Jesus uses is the same or very similar to the words copied by me out of Luke 9:46 to 48 where the Greek word that means small, little, and even rank or influence.Jesus continues to speak about offences until the end of the chapter 18 as he speaks about the millstone and offending little ones, how to handle a trespass against you {offences}, and how many times must I forgive {offences}. The people being offended in these verses would not be just children. Notice though that the Luke 9:48 where the word least is used as one that is small little and lower rank. The word least is found in these verses in Mathew chapter 18 more than one place. Mat 18:1 At1722 the same1565 time5610 came4334 the3588 disciples3101 unto Jesus,2424 saying,3004 Who5101, (686) is2076 the greatest3187 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven?3772 Mat 18:2 And2532 Jesus2424 called4341 a little child3813 unto him, and2532 set2476 him846 in1722 the midst3319 of them,846 Mat 18:3 And2532 said,2036 Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 Except3362 ye be converted,4762 and2532 become1096 as5613 little children,3813 ye shall not3364 enter1525 into1519 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven.3772 Mat 18:4 Whosoever3748 therefore3767 shall humble5013 himself1438 as5613 this5124 little child,3813 the same3778 is2076 greatest3187 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven.3772 Mat 18:5 And2532 whoso3739, 1437 shall receive1209 one1520 such5108 little child3813 in1909 my3450 name3686 receiveth1209 me.1691 Mat 18:6 But1161 whoso3739, 302 shall offend4624 one1520 of these5130 little ones3398 which believe4100 in1519 me,1691 it were better4851 for him846 that2443 a millstone3458, 3684 were hanged2910 about1909 his846 neck,5137 and2532 that he were drowned2670 in1722 the3588 depth3989 of the3588 sea.2281 Mat 18:7 Woe3759 unto the3588 world2889 because of offenses!4625 for1063 it must needs be2076, 318 that offenses4625 come;2064 but4133 woe3759 to that1565 man444 by1223 whom3739 the3588 offense4625 cometh!20644625. skandalon skan'-dal-on ("scandal;" probably from a derivative of 2578; a trap-stick (bent sapling), i.e. snare (figuratively, cause of displeasure or sin):--occasion to fall (of stumbling), offence, thing that offends, stumblingblock.Notice that the words occasion to fall, offence, thing that offends, and stumblingblock are also part of the definition.Mat 18:8 Wherefore1161 if1487 thy4675 hand5495 or2228 thy4675 foot4228 offend4624 thee,4571 cut them off,1581, 846 and2532 cast906 them from575 thee:4675 it is2076 better2570 for thee4671 to enter1525 into1519 life2222 halt5560 or2228 maimed,2948 rather than2228 having2192 two1417 hands5495 or2228 two1417 feet4228 to be cast906 into1519 everlasting166 fire.4442 Mat 18:9 And2532 if1487 thine4675 eye3788 offend4624 thee,4571 pluck it out,1807, 846 and2532 cast906 it from575 thee:4675 it is2076 better2570 for thee4671 to enter1525 into1519 life2222 with one eye,3442 rather2228 than having2192 two1417 eyes3788 to be cast906 into1519 hell1067 fire.4442 Mat 18:10 Take heed3708 that ye despise2706 not3361 one1520 of these5130 little ones;3398 for1063 I say3004 unto you,5213 That3754 in1722 heaven3772 their846 angels32 do always1223, 3956 behold991 the3588 face4383 of my3450 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven.37722706. kataphroneo kat-af-ron-eh'-o from 2596 and 5426; to think against, i.e. disesteem:--despise. 2707. kataphrontes kat-af-ron-tace' from 2706; a contemner:--despiser.2706 means to think against, despiseThe verses in Mathew chapter 18 continue. Mat 18:11 For1063 the3588 Son5207 of man444 is come2064 to save4982 that which was lost.622 Mat 18:12 How5101 think1380 ye?5213 if1437 a5100 man444 have1096 a hundred1540 sheep,4263 and2532 one1520 of1537 them846 be gone astray,4105 doth he not3780 leave863 the3588 ninety and nine,1768 and goeth4198 into1909 the3588 mountains,3735 and2532 seeketh2212 that which is gone astray?4105 Mat 18:13 And2532 if1437 so be1096 that he find2147 it,846 verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 he(3754) rejoiceth5463 more3123 of1909 that846 sheep, than2228 of1909 the3588 ninety and nine1768 which went not astray.4105, 3361 Mat 18:14 Even so3779 it is2076 not3756 the will2307 of1715 your5216 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven,3772 that2443 one1520 of these5130 little ones3398 should perish.622 Mat 18:15 Moreover1161 if1437 thy4675 brother80 shall trespass264 against1519 thee,4571 go5217 and2532 tell him his fault1651, 846 between3342 thee4675 and2532 him846 alone:3441 if1437 he shall hear191 thee,4675 thou hast gained2770 thy4675 brother.80 Mat 18:16 But1161 if1437 he will not3361 hear191 thee, then take3880 with3326 thee4675 one1520 or2228 two1417 more,2089 that2243 in1909 the mouth4720 of two1417 or2228 three5140 witnesses3144 every3956 word4487 may be established.2476 Mat 18:17 And1161 if1437 he shall neglect to hear3878 them,846 tell2036 it unto the3588 church:1577 but1161 if1437 he neglect to hear3878 the3588 church,1577 let him be2077 unto thee4671 as5618 a heathen man1482 and2532 a publican.5057 Mat 18:18 Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 Whatsoever3745, 1437 ye shall bind1210 on1909 earth1093 shall be2071 bound1210 in1722 heaven:3772 and2532 whatsoever3745, 1437 ye shall loose3089 on1909 earth1093 shall be2071 loosed3089 in1722 heaven.3772 Mat 18:19 Again3825 I say3004 unto you,5213 That3754 if1437 two1417 of you5216 shall agree4856 on1909 earth1093 as touching4012 any3956 thing4229 that3739, 1437 they shall ask,154 it shall be done1096 for them846 of3844 my3450 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 heaven.3772 Mat 18:20 For1063 where3757 two1417 or2228 three5140 are1526 gathered together4863 in1519 my1699 name,3686 there1563 am1510 I in1722 the midst3319 of them.846 Mat 18:21 Then5119 came4334 Peter4074 to him,846 and said,2036 Lord,2962 how oft4212 shall my3450 brother80 sin264 against1519 me,1691 and2532 I forgive863 him?846 till2193 seven times?2034 Mat 18:22 Jesus2424 saith3004 unto him,846 I say3004 not3756 unto thee,4671 Until2193 seven times:2034 but, Until2193 seventy times1441 seven.2033 Mat 18:23 Therefore1223, 5124 is the3588 kingdom932 of heaven3772 likened unto3666 a certain king,444, 935 which3739 would2309 take4868 account3056 of3326 his848 servants.1401 Mat 18:24 And1161 when he846 had begun756 to reckon,4868 one1520 was brought4374 unto him,846 which owed3781 him ten thousand3463 talents.5007 Mat 18:25 But1161 forasmuch as he846 had2192 not3361 to pay,591 his846 lord2962 commanded2753 him846 to be sold,4097 and2532 his846 wife,1135 and2532 children,5043 and2532 all3956 that he(3745) had,2192 and2532 payment to be made.591 Mat 18:26 The3588 servant1401 therefore3767 fell down,4098 and worshiped4352 him,846 saying,3004 Lord,2962 have patience3114 with1909 me,1698 and2532 I will pay591 thee4671 all.3956 Mat 18:27 Then1161 the3588 lord2962 of that1565 servant1401 was moved with compassion4697 and loosed630 him,846 and2532 forgave863 him846 the3588 debt.1156 Mat 18:28 But1161 the3588 same1565 servant1401 went out,1831 and found2147 one1520 of his846 fellow servants,4889 which3739 owed3784 him846 a hundred1540 pence:1220 and2532 he laid hands2902 on him,846 and took him by the throat,4155 saying,3004 Pay591 me3427 that3748 thou owest.3784 Mat 18:29 And3767 his846 fellowservant4889 fell down4098 at1519 his846 feet,4228 and besought3870 him,846 saying,3004 Have patience3114 with1909 me,1698 and2532 I will pay591 thee4671 all.3956 Mat 18:30 And1161 he3588 would2309 not:3756 but235 went565 and cast906 him846 into1519 prison,5438 till2193 he should(3757) pay591 the3588 debt.3784 Mat 18:31 So1161 when his846 fellowservants4889 saw1492 what was done,1096 they were very sorry,3076, 4970 and2532 came2064 and told1285 unto their848 lord2962 all3956 that was done.1096 Mat 18:32 Then5119 his846 lord,2962 after that he had called4341 him,846 said3004 unto him,846 O thou wicked4190 servant,1401 I forgave863 thee4671 all3956 that1565 debt,3782 because1893 thou desiredst3870 me:3165 Mat 18:33 Shouldest1163 not3756 thou4571 also2532 have had compassion1653 on thy4675 fellow servant,4889 even2532 as5613 I1473 had pity1653 on thee?4571 Mat 18:34 And2532 his846 lord2962 was wroth,3710 and delivered3860 him846 to the3588 tormentors,930 till2193 he(3739) should pay591 all3956 that was due3784 unto him.846 Mat 18:35 So likewise3779 shall my3450 heavenly2032 Father3962 do4160 also2532 unto you,5213 if3362 ye from575 your5216 hearts2588 forgive863 not3362 every one1538 his848 brother80 their846 trespasses.3900You may not understand what I've tried to express here. I believe that when we get on this forum or speak to people anywhere, we need to be very careful not to offend someone that is least in the Kingdom of God and also that we need to be very careful to hear what a least of these says. Cindy, I like this forum very much too.

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GaryE Feb 23, 2006

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth1209 you5209 receiveth1209 me,1691 and2532 he that receiveth1209 me1691 receiveth1209 him that sent649 me.3165 Mat 10:41 He that receiveth1209 a prophet4396 in1519 the name3686 of a prophet4396 shall receive2983 a prophet's4396 reward;3408 and2532 he that receiveth1209 a righteous man1342 in1519 the name3686 of a righteous man1342 shall receive2983 a righteous man's1342 reward.3408 Mat 10:42 And2532 whosoever3739, 1437 shall give to drink4222 unto one1520 of these5130 little ones3398 a cup4221 of cold5593 water only3440 in1519 the name3686 of a disciple,3101 verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 he shall in no wise3364 lose622 his848 reward.3408,Apparently, there are three rewards here mentioned. The commentaries that I have looked at state that there is a reward for recognizing the prophet, a different reward for recognizing the righteous man, and a still different reward for recognizing the little ones or {the least of these}. When a Word is sent to me by someone that is not esteemed in this life from someone, I don’t want to miss it. If that man or woman is from a denomination that I don’t agree with about things, poor, or maybe even a child with downs syndrome, I don’t want to miss it. In the above verse Mathew 10:42 he speaks of little ones. The word in the Greek for little ones is the same as for least #3398. In the next verse you read the same word that is translated as least. To be greatest is to receive the word of the least that is sent to us.Luk 9:48 And2532 said2036 unto them,846 Whosoever3739, 1437 shall receive1209 this5124 child3813 in1909 my3450 name3686 receiveth1209 me:1691 and2532 whosoever3739, 1437 shall receive1209 me1691 receiveth1209 him that sent649 me:3165 for1063 he that is5225 least3398…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………1Co 15:9 For1063 I1473 am1510 the3588 least1646 of the3588 apostles,652 that3739 am1510 not3756 meet2425 to be called2564 an apostle,652 because1360 I persecuted1377 the3588 church1577 of God.23161646. elachistos el-akh'-is-tos superlative of elachus (short); used as equivalent to 3398; least (in size, amount, dignity, etc.):--least, very little (small), smallest.Here is a different word that is translated least that means about the same thing. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………Mat 18:4 Whosoever3748 therefore3767 shall humble5013 himself1438 as5613 this5124 little child,3813 the same3778 is2076 greatest3187 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven.37723187. meizon mide'-zone irregular comparative of 3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specially, in age):--elder, greater(-est), more.Here the word greatest is a word that is the opposite of least. Humble in Strongs is said to be: depress, bring low, abase ect..When we find this life we lose it. When we lose this life for his sake, we find it. We win when we lose and lose when we win. We must consider others above ourselves. Unless we have a compassion for the people of this lost world, there won't be any revival in it. When compassion is what is motivating our speach there is humility involved. When pride motivates our speach there is strife.

sermonindex Feb 23, 2006

Love and Sound Doctrine.Jesus commanded that we have both.Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrineMat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Mat 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes. Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. Mar 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrineMar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, Luk 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Joh 18:19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Act 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. Act 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. 1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: Tit 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward GodHeb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

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GaryE Feb 23, 2006

{Quote} CindyI personally believe Jesus is speaking about PROTECTION from sin, enticing to sin. I don't think He meant that they shouldn't be offended by us speaking on "hard" topics..................................................Result of search for "4624": 4624. skandalizo skan-dal-id'-zo from 4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend..................................................We are suppose to lead the sheep, not beat them. When sheep are driven they are offended and enticed to sin. They backslide. They stumble. Whether our words are seasoned with salt or whether they aren’t seasoned with salt can either bring people to the Lord or drive people away from the Lord. This is why many people do not come to the Lord until they meet a Christian that has a heart for them. We are to not just say we have love, but are to demonstrate that love. It's not enough to know that, we must do it. Everyone that comes to this site is not a believer. Some are new in the Lord. The tare picking that sometimes goes on this forum does not help these kinds of people at all. It entices people to sin and causes them to stumble. Some people don’t become Christians because of something a professor, who thinks they are one of the greatest, convinces them that there is no difference between a Christian and the world when they see the professors debates and arguments. The offended person sees the arguments and debates then the person figures there isn’t any difference in being a Christian and the rest of the world. Instead of giving that person a cup of living water, the professor gives the offended person nothing to drink with the words that are written.Cindy, you are right. This is a good forum for the most part. It is often a place to get fed the Word and is very good for many people including myself. Many things have been posted that I hadn’t considered before. Many people have posted sites that have taught me things that help my walk

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lastblast Feb 23, 2006

We are suppose to lead the sheep, not beat them. When sheep are driven they are offended and enticed to sin. They backslide. They stumble. I agree with this. The "beating" I usually see though comes in the form of personal attacks because someone does not like another's position/belief on something. That type of thing is unfortunate and WRONG. If this is what you are speaking of then I am very much in agreement with you.However, I am of the same mind as Annie-----part of loving someone is speaking TRUTH. Some Truth is very painful to hear/contemplate. I see sometimes where there are some who want TRUTH or even the very discussion on what is truth to be stifled. Some believe even airing differing viewpoints respectfully will cause some "weak" in the faith or even an unbeliever not to come to Christ. To that I say "nonsense". When the Lord calls any of us to Him and calls us AWAY from our sin(whatever sins those are), only those who turn away from the Lord say "it is TOO hard". It is the message of repentance they are rejecting (and the Lord Himself), not the person delivering it----though many times we like to make it seem that the "messenger" is at fault. In any case, if we are looking to man and expecting him to be "perfect", we will be sorely disappointed. If a person falls away from Christ due a man, then there is a real problem with their own foundational relationship with the Lord. But even so, we have this promise: "Whosoever the Father has given me, I will in no wise lose, but will raise him up on the last day". Do we need to be our brother's keeper? Absolutely. If we fail in this area (and we will in the eyes of others for sure), is the Lord able to "keep" those who are truly His? Absolutely, without a doubt.Blessings in Him, Cindy

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GaryE Feb 23, 2006

{Quote} AnnieLove and Sound Doctrine,Jesus commanded that we have both…………………………………………………………………………………..The why, when, and how to speak is what makes the difference in whether something that is said is worth saying. Two words come to mind and they are balance and motive. Sound doctrine doesn’t work without love. There needs to be a balance with the two.With motive I have to look at why I am saying what I am saying. Is it for God or myself that I say what I say. I can make declarations from the scripture and speak what is true and do it out of pride, trying to impress others and wanting self-respect of others instead of doing it for the Lord.When to speak has to do with the prompt of the Holy Spirit. We are to stay still until the cloud and fire move. The timing of the words are important.How I speak has to do with love. My speech is to be with grace, seasoned with salt. I will be accountable to God for every word that comes out of my mouth.

sermonindex Feb 25, 2006

Hia Gary,I fully agree with you on the love issue.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6655&forum=36#49680 You'll have to scroll up to the top ... I don't know why it opens half page.But from watching forums closely now for a few years ... I think sometimes what ALSO happens, is we judge the poster who may be "correcting" as NOT loving, when in reality ... we just don't understand their "style" or the "motive" of their heart.That's where 'our' Love is tested. If we jump off the handle, judging someone who may be in a correcting mode, then our own love is off.Love is a tough one to discern in another with 100% accuracy, because we all have our own prejudices.Some prefer to be extra gentle to all.Others may see someone who isn't talking to others and "nail them one" because they feel in their heart (or from experience or just the Lord's leading), that only through inducing 'anger' in the solitary man, will he come back swinging and than dialog can begin.With others, you may have to make them laugh, so that they'll lighten up and see they can have the joy of the Lord and not take things so seriously.Now the "pious" Saint may say ... "This is foolishness (or sharpness) being posted on a Theological Website" and never see the motive of either type posting.Being quick to judge another's post, is not "walking in the Spirit" as you say you do.You can't claim 100% Spirit inspiration for all of your posts and neither can I ... but God is looking at our Hearts ... DO WE Desire to Love every human on this planet ? ... saved and unsaved ?Gary, you've come at me last year in a way that almost threw me backwards off of my chair and I may do the same to you tomorrow ... ha ... but that is where LOVE gets it's REAL test and God can refine us by using fire from each other.How often I've seen others being judged as "trying to impress others" .... but when they really got to know the person, they have to eat their own past judgment.It was once said, that we hate or judge most in others, what is really in ourselves. This I truly believe is the case, more times than we choose to believe.Now, as far as knowing the "motives of our 'own' hearts" (Nonetheless ... Judge the "Motives" of others ... God Forbid it) .... our hearts are deceitful ... and only The Lord can show us the Motives of our 'own' hearts and sometimes he uses our Blunders to do it. We cannot possibly think that we know our own heart ... it's a sneaky/tricky little critter and Self-Importance/Pride, will be active until we see Jesus. Even Hudson Taylor said that and many like him.We have to know that ... because if we don't know that, then all of our actions will be birthed of pride, until our dying day.If we don't learn that our heart's our deceptive to ourselves ... then we'll gain a confidence in the flesh, if God forbid, we 'think' we are "humble", "gentle" or always acting "in the Spirit".We definitely should pray to be so ... but I side with Hudson Taylor and them ... that that "flesh" will be there, wanting Center Stage or something similar, until we're on our face before The Throne for good. And once we see it in ourselves, we'll not be so quick to want to see it in others. It 'hurts' to see it in ourselves, so we can't do both .... see it in ourselves and others at the same time.Better to be like the Publican, and keep low ... always seeing our own need for 'mercy' for being what we are, but most of the time can't see in ourselves.God Bless you brother.His Love to you.your sis,Annie

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pastorfrin Mar 11, 2006

Hi Gary,Strange I was thinking about this same subject today, and as I was scrolling through the threadsI came upon yours. Thank you for the conformation.Sometimes we get distracted from what we have been called to do. There are many reasons for it, but mostly it comes from vanity. Now before all of you out there start screaming, who does hethink he is, hear me out, dont throw me out. Thisalso applies to me, I am as guilty as anyone.Face it WE LIKE TO BE RIGHT it makes us feel really, really good. Sometimes being right suppersedes His will, not purposefully, but wedo live in a fleshly body.1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.I confess I have sinned, being caught up in as2 Tim. 2:16 calls profane and vain babblings.We are told to shun them for they will increaseunto more ungodliness.Paul sums it up very well in 1 Cor.2:1,2And I, brethen, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring the testimony of God.2. For I determined not to any thing among you,save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.rest of chapter is helpful.The enemy would much prefer us to share all ourdoctrinal differences than to proclaim Jesus Christ. That way when a lost sheep does happen to stop in, the enemy can say, look at them howthey bite and devour one another, come on over here I will help you. I wish the world was shunning us because we were proclaiming the love of Jesus Christ,but their not. Its because they see no difference in many of us, then what theysee in the world. Sound hard ? Look at some of the threads on this sight.Jesus said: by this shall all men know that you are my diciples.BY WHAT? If ye have love one to another.Gary, thank you for pointing out a grevious error.defined: an often unintentional deviation from the truth. As a site designed for the purpose of promotingrevival, should we not be promoting Jesus Christ?Revival starts with judgement. Of who? The house of God. 1Peter 4:16,17Again, thank you Gary,My prayer is Ps.26:2 Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.God Bless You All,pastorfrin

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brentw Mar 11, 2006

I have felt so grieved debating issues until blue in the face.... This website is dedicated to revival not legalism. Beating someone can be spewing legalism. A legalistic spirit sounds harsh...I told myself I never would get wrapped up in large debates here. My focus has got to be on Jesus and HIS GLORY. Walking & living in the Spirit. I told myself today how much time have I spent writting on this forum today when I should weeping for the lost & a sick church....Lord forgive me!!! Time will never forgive us.

sermonindex Mar 11, 2006

brent, the best way to do this, is to pray and ask the Lord which thread HE wants you on.Then ask Him, what do you want me to say ?Normally, as Paul constantly had to contend for truth ... yet he told Titus to limit corrections to twice and then split.Let's say, you walk into a Bible Study where you are allowed to raise your hand and say something ... and all of a sudden, somebody says something way off the wall, that is not in Scripture ... do you just walk out or do you think of the younger folks in Christ and how they are being misled and raise your hand and say, "The Word of God says ....... ! "See that's a question and that will be a question until the Lord returns.We're in a big Bible Study.There is no way on earth that you can have a "Christian" Forum and not bring Biblical truths onto it and expect it to always float gently cross the seas. Paul barely had a moment of peace in this department.If you don't feel led to raise your hand and say something on a topic, then don't bother with the thread .... but if you do want to edify on that thread or you see something that would hurt somebody else ... ask the Lord to give you the Bible Verses for it.That's all. No need to fight. "Contend for the faith" {Jude} ... but no fighting. :-D

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roadsign Mar 11, 2006

the best way to do this, is to pray and ask the Lord which thread HE wants you on.Funny you should say this, Annie, as this morning I woke up early and couldn't get SI off my mind. So I finally got up to come here. And what a joy it was to see this new thread posted. I see it as a taste of God's mercy. He is not going to let this whole tension between law and grace slip away. And he knows that the process can be very traumatic and shaky. My how we fight it. But for eternity sake, is it not worth letting all hell itself shake? May God expose all hypocrisy and resistance to his Spirit. And may we bend, break, melt, and receive his refining fires no matter how painful. May he expose all roots of legalism that lurks in the dark recesses of our hearts. Legalism is really a dependence on the flesh, and a belief that God's approval comes from following a perscribed set of laws - whatever that be. Even permissiveness has a root of leglism: self-justification. Brent I empathize with your words: I told myself today how much time have I spent writting on this forum today when I should weeping for the lost & a sick church....Lord forgive me!!! Time will never forgive us.My focus has got to be on Jesus and HIS GLORY.A few times I have wondered if God was telling me to leave here and spend the time with the Lord. I admit, sometimes seems pointless to spend so much time writing. But that is not the reason to walk away. I'm sure the Bible writers, and many missionaries felt that way too at times about their work in the kingdom.God asks you and me to lay aside our ideal standard for SI and walk through muddy terrain, and be an instrument of healing? It may very well be for our own good too. God told Jeremiah when he got fed up: "If you have raced with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses? If you stumble in a safe country, how will you manage in the thickets of Jordan?" Jer 12:5There are tougher times ahead. Diane

sermonindex Mar 11, 2006

Good post Diane, and I hope that brent can use Paul as his model here.How much would you estimate that Jesus and Paul had written into our N.T.s JUST on legalism and who were the only ones that Jesus and Paul got worked up over and even called some ripe names ?brent, you are tearing out about 1/2 of your New Testament if you pull out all of the "contending" and Logic is also trying to show you, that we can't wimp out on striving for Truth.If we cry Peace, Peace in this world, with the hirelings and ravenous wolves that sneak into Churches and say "Unity at all costs at the expense of truth" ... we're goners.I praise God for men that will stand for Truth because Jesus is the Truth and if we won't stand firm and contend for the faith ... to the Apostasy we go.Paul should be your example, because he suffered the longest for contending for the truth and all of his books are just that.As Diane said, "There are tougher times ahead."

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brentw Mar 12, 2006

Annie,I agree with you. We should contend for sure. Maybe I'm a little misunderstood in my post on legalism. But your right I have to balance my self on this forum in choosing.... My whole ministery is on revival....I'm still striving.Love your wisdom Annie...you bring balance to this forum...the Lord is really using you here! :-)