Outer Darkness?

Is anyone familiar with a teaching floating around that "outer darkness" is referring to a place in heaven for "disobedient Christians"? That it's a place of deep regret? I had never heard this before until just a week ago. Who could ever think we would weep and gnash our teeth in heaven? Why would anyone think like this? I don't get it. Comments anyone? Thanks. Dian.

Dian,I have never heard of it, but then that is not surprising, either. Could you tell us who is writing, promoting this idea so perhaps we could check it out on the web?Now why someone would believe this, I would only guess they are trying to make hell a little less awful, terrible then what it is. Can you not just hear the devil saying: "Oh, come on now, hell is not as bad as those crazy Christians say it is...."Just my thoughts,ginnyrose

Ginny. Although I have not read this book, Grace In Eclipse by Zane Hodges, (I just looked that one up on the internet), this is one I found. A friend of mine was explaining this theology to me last week-end as if it were "gospel". I've found much to say on this subject as I've researched under the phrase, "outer darkness". I just can't understand how anyone would construe this scripture to be speaking of a place in heaven. Love, Dian.

the outer darkness comes from the mormon teaching. It is very occultic and i would steer clear of it. Though the bible does speak about "outer darkness" it is still another reference of hell. It is the complete opposite of heaven. Hell is DARK, HOT, AND MISERABLE! Also if there are mormons that tell you that there is no such thing as hell, ask them why then does the book of mormon teach that there is? (I Nephi 14:3, II Ne. 9:16;28: 21-23, Mosiah 3:25, Alma 34:35, Heleman 6:28 and 3:25,26). also you can go to this site. http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/questions.php

Is anyone familiar with a teaching floating around that "outer darkness" is referring to a place in heaven for "disobedient Christians"? That it's a place of deep regret? I had never heard this before until just a week ago. Who could ever think we would weep and gnash our teeth in heaven? Why would anyone think like this? I don't get it. Comments anyone? Thanks. Dian.I think the biggest problem is a failure on the part of most to come to the scriptures to get a clear view of eschatology. That is the sequence of events and the final destination of believers.What is found in the scriptures is that according to the Bible, heaven is not our destination but the New Jerusalem in the New Earth. (Revelation 21-22)And between this age and the eternal age there is the age of the Kingdom which last for 1000 years. Revelation 20).The Lord's words regarding "weeping and knashing of teath, and so forth are found in the "parables of the Kingdom" which does not refer to the eternal age but to the comming mellinial reign of Christ preceeded by the Judgement Seat of Christ at which believers will be judged.IN these parables we find many instances of genuinly born again, regenerated belivers who are diciplined by the Lord at His comming. There is the one who recieved forgiveness from his Master but would not forgive his debter. And the Lord said, 'He shall not come out till he has payed the last farthing."There is the parable of the 10 virgins all of whom had oil (the Spirit) in their lamps but only 5 were admitted to the wedding feast because their vessles were full of oil.It is only religious tradition which teaches heaven as a catch all for the "after life". The Scriptures present a more succinct and detailed view which includes the reward of the Kingdom and the Eternal age, the judgement seat of Christ and dispensational disipline for those who are not matured, for slothful servants, for those who lived a wastefull and carnal life. These will not enjoy the reward of the Kingdom.But all who are regenerated and have the Eternal Life of God will enjoy participation in the New Jeruselem. Having been diciplined and matured through the Kingdom age, they will take their place as members of the corporate Wife of the Lamb, the New Jeruslem.What we find at the end of the Bible is not a mass of people surrounding the throne of God in heaven with harps and living in heavenly mansions. Rather we find the New Jeruselem, comming down out of heaven to the New Earth.And the New Jerusalem is not a physical city, she is the wife of the Lamb, the city of God, the tabernacle of God and God Himself is the temple.God's desire from Genesis to revelation is not to take men to heaven, but to dwell on the earth Himself. he put man before the Tree of Life which represents the Triune God, embodied in Christ to be taken in as food. And in the Old testament, God's goal with Isreal was to build the tabernacle and then the temple to be God's dwelling place. When Christ came He was the tabernacle of God among men. And in resurrection He brought into being the church, the body of Christ which is the genuine temple of God as Ephesians 2 tells us.At the end of the Bible we have the New Jerusalem. This is the tabernacle of God. A corporate entity, a corporat Person, the Wife of the Lamb, constituted with God as her Life, with the river of the Water of Life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb and the Tree of Life along it's banks.The end of the Bible is all of God's redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, and transfigured saints as His eternal dwelling Place and the eternal counterpart of Christ as His eternal perfected Bride.This is the Biblical revelation.Rev 19:3-4 And cast him (Satan) into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not decieve the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a little whileAnd I saw thrones and they say upon them... and they lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a New heaven and a New Earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.vs. 2 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, comming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...Graftedbranch

Though the bible does speak about "outer darkness" it is still another reference of hell. It is the complete opposite of heaven. Hell is DARK, HOT, AND MISERABLE!The Bible has 4 words translated Hell. Sheol, hades, Tartarus, and Gehena. Sheol is the Hebrew word for hades and means "the abode of the dead. Tartarus is the place refered to by Peter as where the angels which kept not their estate but went after strange flesh are kept in chains of darkness awaiting judgement. Gehenna referes to the lake of Fire, the final destination of Satan and those who are his (the fallen angels, demons, and unbelievers).It is unfortunate that the KJV translated all these words as the one word "hell" as we lose the distinctions.According to the scripture, when anyone dies today, he decends into hades. The unbelievers and the wicked decend into Torments, and the believers decend into Paradise, the pleasent part of Hades.We know this because our Lord said on the Cross, "This day you shall be with Me in Paradise". and in other passages we are told "He decended into Hades. Also our Lord spoke of the rich man and Lazeras both in the same place but with a casm fixed between them which no man could pass. Lazerus was in Abrahams bossom (Paradise) and the rich man was in torments.That hell and hades are not synonomous is clear in Revelation 13,14:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each according to their works."14 "And death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). This is the second death, the lake of fire."Yet in our simplistic and traditional view of things. we just relegate everything to going to heaven or going to hell when you die. But it is not so simple in scripture. We need the revelation of the Bible to have a clear view, to know the scheme of things and to know God's purpose for us.Graftedbranch

That the outer darkness is not the lake of fire is evident because the Lord spoke of the outer darkness in reference to the Kingdom.IN Revelation 21 8 we are told in the context of the New Jerusalem and the Eternal Age, "But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.That this lake of fire is outside the city is shown in Rev. 22:15 "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie."the "outer darkness' in the context of our Lord's words are outside the Kingdom. This is during the mellinial age.Graftedbranch

Thank you for checking me on my terms as far as hell goes. I did the study myself on every word and i do know that there are variances in degrees of hell. But to say that there is a place to discipline carnal believers or slothful servants disturbs me. Though there are many scriptures that give a different definition of hell, all are in relation. I can agree with your millenial reign arguement but as far as people getting punished or "disciplined" for a time makes me wonder about your perception of the Cross.

I can agree with your millenial reign arguement but as far as people getting punished or "disciplined" for a time makes me wonder about your perception of the Cross.On the Cross the Lord judicially redeemed us. Also, on it He terminated the old creation. Eliminated the distinctions of race, religious ordinances, social status, gender, and all such distinctions and in Himself brought into being the One New Man in resurrection.However, if you consider the plain revelation of the Bible conserning the Lord's dicipline of believers in this life, we could argue, "why does He dicipline us if all our sins are delt with on the cross?"Hebrews tells us that if we are without dicipline, then we are illigetimate children.Dicipline is not for the purpose of atonement. Dicipline is to teach us and to work Christ into us to conform us to the image of Christ.Our judicial redemption is the basis upon which God carries out His organic salvation. That is, We are redeemed and reconciled to God, and on this bases God regenerates us, indwells us and sanctifies us through the indwelling Spirit.But God's goal is not just judicially redeemed sinners, but saints who participate in His resurrection Life and through the Spirit are conformed to His image. Not just in standing, but also in experience.God's goal is in bringing many sons to glory.Dicipline for the believer has as it's objective to cause us to seek Him, to turn to Him, and to appropriate from Him resurrection Life. And to partake of His holiness.Dicipline adds nothing to our Lord's redemption. It adds no rightousness to us. Rather it causes us to partake more fully of Christ who is our rightousness.God's goal is to constitute us with Christ as our Life. His goal is to work Christ into us that we would live by Him and be His expression both individually and corporately as the body of Christ.Though every believer is redeemed, regenerated, and has the Life of God within him, we cannot deny dicipliine in this age or the age to come. There is such a thing as the judgement seat of Christ. And the judgment seat of Christ is not where one's eternal destiny is determined. All who stand before Christ at His judgement seat are redeemed and regenerated. The unredeemed will stand at the Great White throne Judgement at the end of the Mellinium. The Judgement Seat of Christ is at the end of this age and prior to the Mellinium.The New Jerusalem which is in the eternal age is composed of every redeemed regenerated child of God from every age, both the Old Testament and New Testament.But these that compose it are not just judicially redeemed, they have been regenerated, sanctified, renewed, transformed, and fully conformed to the image of Christ. They have also been transfigured and are in resurrection completely.And they are fully constituted with Christ as their Life, they are permeated with the Divine Nature, and they are the expression of God.But to achieve This goal, God must fully transform us. To those redeemed regenerated believers in this life who pursue Christ, who allow God's discipline to do it's work and who are matured, have no need of God's dicipline in the comming age. But to those slothful servants who resisted His dicipline and who failed to go on to pursue Christ and grow in His Life, they will be diciplined by the Lord in the comming age. Not the eternal age, but the age of the Kingdom.This in no way compromises our Lord's redemption but rather shows that it's application can be appropriated fully in this age or may diverted to some extent to the age to come. But in the Eternal age, God's building will be completed and perfected.Romans 8:29 Those whom He forknew, he did also predestinate to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the First born among many brothers.If you read this verse in context, you see the apostle is showing God's work in our circomstances, tials, and dicipline (God causes all things to work together for good), to bring about this predestinated goal. That is to conform us to the image of Christ.Paul asserts that we are not automatically conformed to Christ at death, but rather God uses all these things, sufferings, hard circomstances, and what have you to achieve His goal and purpose. to conform us to the image of the First Born Son of God.If judicial redemption automatically perfected us, God would have no need of such dealings with us. If judicial redemption just made us acceptable to God legally, then we would still be natural, soulish, fleshly and full of ourselves. But Judicial redemption reconciles us to God, deals with our sins, and brings the Life of God into us to fully renew us, transform us and practically conform us to the image of Christ.Graftedbranch

For you guys who might be interested, I asked my friend where I might find information on the subject of outer darkness and he sent me here: http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/ppdf1/OuterDkns.pdf . It seemed like a pretty convincing argument that outer darkness is a place for disobedient Christians. See what you think, Sir Grafted. Thanks. Dian.

IN these parables we find many instances of genuinly born again, regenerated belivers who are diciplined by the Lord at His comming. There is the one who recieved forgiveness from his Master but would not forgive his debter. And the Lord said, 'He shall not come out till he has payed the last farthing." There is the parable of the 10 virgins all of whom had oil (the Spirit) in their lamps but only 5 were admitted to the wedding feast because their vessles were full of oil. It is only religious tradition which teaches heaven as a catch all for the "after life". The Scriptures present a more succinct and detailed view which includes the reward of the Kingdom and the Eternal age, the judgement seat of Christ and dispensational disipline for those who are not matured, for slothful servants, for those who lived a wastefull and carnal life. These will not enjoy the reward of the Kingdom. But all who are regenerated and have the Eternal Life of God will enjoy participation in the New Jeruselem. Having been diciplined and matured through the Kingdom age, they will take their place as members of the corporate Wife of the Lamb, the New Jeruslem.Hmmm...This teaching is new to me, it sounds like a Protestant form of purgatory. I'm trying to understand how this can be reconciled with the fact that the sacrifice of the Cross was sufficient to pay for our sins. Was his death not enough? Must we pay for our own sins? Also, if a believer is to be a part of the New Jerusalem that must mean he is an overcomer;Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Revelation 3:12)Is an overcomer someone who was unfaithful in this life and then suffered God's punishment in the millenium? Outer darkness, the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, sure sounds like hell to me;And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)You seem to be saying that those in outer darkness are not outside heaven, if this is so you have the problem of God being light and in Him is no darkness.(1 John 1:5) I'm not sure where this leaves outer darkness?In Christ,Ron

This is an interesting thread. I have always thought that there are different levels of afterlife though I accept that Heaven is Heaven and Hell is Hell. I don't believe in purgatory or that we will be punished who are redeemed, I just think we who don't do our utmost as Christians (though we are saved by grace) will somehow lack something in Heaven. One way I have heard it explained is that you mature while you are here and the more you mature the more you will experience Heaven, but if you don't grow down here because you are a slothful Christian, then in Heaven you will be like a small child, with little understanding but still with the joy of being in His presence.I know it's confusing, there are many scriptures and they are all vague references, but we are constantly exhorted by Jesus, Paul, and the others, to gorw in Christ, to work out our salvation and to make our election sure. Not that we doubt our salvation but that once we are saved (by grace) we work our way closer to Him in obedience and learning to trust Him. I will follow this thread, Bro. Grafted has some interesting views but I can't seem to fit them into what I know about His grace and love.Hmmm. does any one have a good description of the different levels in Heaven? Or here on earth as Grafted showed us we are destined for.Ste

And the judgment seat of Christ is not where one's eternal destiny is determined. All who stand before Christ at His judgement seat are redeemed and regenerated. The unredeemed will stand at the Great White throne Judgement at the end of the Mellinium. The Judgement Seat of Christ is at the end of this age and prior to the Mellinium.Hello! have you read matthew 25:31-46. Did not christ give eternal judgment? Discipline is for the living not the dead. God's work was finished on the cross for our atonement. His discipline is to keep us in line so the WORLD can see his Glory through you. Brother, I don't know you, but if you preach that or tell people that then you might cause people who live a slothful, and undisciplined life to stay that way. If They are not saved then you will cause them not to care about their condition because they are going to heaven anyway. They are going to rule with Christ on Earth anyway, Sooner or later, Right? This is why I question your perception on the cross. Christ died once for sins. He traded the just for the unjust. When you are regenerated by the spirit of God Eternal life starts now! When being conformed, The conforming begins at birth! And when you die you will Be in heaven, serving or ruling. This is nothing against your zeal, thats evident. There is some truth to what your saying but just like most rat poison its 99% good food, its just that 1% that will kill you.

[qoute]According to the scripture, when anyone dies today, he decends into hades. The unbelievers and the wicked decend into Torments, and the believers decend into Paradise, the pleasent part of Hades.This is pre-ascention. Captivity has now been taken captive, all believers go to heaven to be with the Lord.That was before the ascention of Christ, now to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ, He has made atonement for us and we go directly to heaven :-)

Thanks Annie, I know that whoever discribes heaven can only give a simplistic idea and when we get there we will say 'wow, and to think I had such a childish view of what it would be like'. I try not to let it interfere with my growing in Christ, but I just wonder, you know.I tend to be a slothful Christian, sometimes I think I need a kick up the backside and I look in threads like this one to show me what I may be missing out on if I don't pull my finger out. But your reply was clear and to the point, something I have never been ;-) Ste

Brother, I don't know you, but if you preach that or tell people that then you might cause people who live a slothful, and undisciplined life to stay that way. If They are not saved then you will cause them not to care about their condition because they are going to heaven anyway. They are going to rule with Christ on Earth anyway, Sooner or later, Right? This is why I question your perception on the cross. Christ died once for sins.I am not sure how assurace of Eternal Salvation to every regenerated believer and the warning of the Lord's dicipline in the comming age to those who fail to grow and go on to follow the Lord and mature in His Life will result in people being content to remain in their condition.In fact, this is simply to take the line of the scriptures themselves.I am not quite sure how dicipline in the comming age would imply the inssuficiency of Christ's atonement any more than dicipline in the present age to those who are redeemed and regenerated. If Christ's redemption is full and complete and sufficient (and it is) then why are we still diciplined today? For what purpose and to what end? To keep us in line to glorify God is not what the bible says it is for.Romans 8 tells us God works all things together for good to them that love God... And what is the good spoken of? in vs. 29, For whom He did forknew He did also predestinate to become conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers".God works in our environment to dicipline us that we might be conformed to the image of His Son. This is what all things work together for. To conform us to Christ. To make us the same as He is in Life and Nature by working Christ into us and causing us to live by Him.Dicipline is not atonement or expiatory either in this age or in the age to come. Diciplie has as it's issue, us gaining more of Christ. We need dicipline because even though we have Christ and His redemptiong, we also are still very much unrenewed and very much full of Self and we need the Lord's dealings with us to strip us from confidnece in ourselves and to turn to Him and to live by Him and be constituted with Him. To become the same as He is. Man filled with God as a vessel containing God, saturated with the Life of God, and living by God. Disipline does not merit for us eternal Life. It does not merit for us a greater standing with God. Dicipline produces the friutt of God's holinessnes beng wrought into our being by the Spirit.The fact of dicipline is unquestioned in the scriptures. And the fact of the comming judgement of believers at the Judgement Seat of Christ at His comming is without question.And the fact of a separate judgement of the lost at the end of the Mellinium prior to the eternal age is also an unquestionable fact revealed clearly in the scriptures.And our Lord's words are clear regarding the Kingdom and the reward and dicipline of believers. Sorry, but this is the Word of God.The most thourough treatment of this subject is found in D. M. Panton's book, "The Judgement Seat of Christ' written in the late 19th century. And from there this matter has been seen and developted by many servants of Christ throughout the following years.His book can be found at: http://www.gracebiblechurch.us/authors/judgmentseat/judgmentseat.htmRegarding Purgatory Panton say's this:It is obvious that the truth of a believer’s judgment, so abundantly stated in the Scriptures, is of vast practical moment, and, once it lays its grip upon a soul, simply incalculable in its motive power. For, contrary to what is sometimes supposed, it greatly reinforces our assurance of eternal life; because, by disentangling countless conditioned promises of reward from the simple assurance of eternal life granted on bare faith, it isolates the unconditioned gift into a radiant light, while withdrawing into the sphere of reward numerous menacing passages, expressive of extreme difficulty and doubt, which have ever been the strongholds of Rome. By reassuring of eternal safety, while yet warning of Millennial peril, it frees the soul for an arrow-fight straight to God’s highest and best. Moreover, of all Scripture truths none is more needed by the Church of Christ. Augustine, as remarkable a servant as God ever had, says that no more constant or powerful motive actuated his discipleship than the knowledge that he must give account; and no Christian would dare plunge into the worldliness and sin now rampant amongst multitudes of true believers had the truth our Lord expresses to Thyatira been once burnt home to the soul ;—" All the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I wilt give unto each one of you according to your works" (Rev. 2:23). And finally, it brings to bear upon the redeemed heart, with thrilling power, the full impact of facts. If a literal bodily removal from coming horrors, if literal bursting from the tombs with the throbbings of immortal life, if literal thrones, and a literal authority over the nations, walking with Christ in white —if all these are contingent on holiness and suffering, all other ambitions become as dust, and martyrdom itself no excessive price. But not the least of its advantages is the light it casts on Roman error, and how that error arose; and, above all, on the Roman doctrine of purgatory. For (we first observe) it is a supreme peculiarity of our Lord’s love to His own that it can never stop short of the perfection of the person loved. "As many as I love, I reprove and chasten" (Rev. 3:19) : "He chastens us for our profit, that we may become partakers of His holiness" (Heb. 12:10). His holiness is perfection; so that our discipline, however drastic or prolonged, is never a proof of His enmity, but of His love; and is never a sign—either now, or at the Judgment Seat—of a disciple’s ultimate destruction, but of his ultimate perfection. Where others show their love by indulgence, Christ shows His by chastisement. "Every branch in Me that beareth fruit, He PURGETH it" (John 15:2). Thus if the judgment of believers, and the Scripture so calls it (I Cor. 11:32), is in full operation (as all admit) in the day of grace itself, it is obvious that such judgment, even to the infliction of death here (1 Cor. 11:30) or hereafter (Luke 12:46), can be no contravention of the principles of grace: our chastisement is our highway to perfection.Graftedbranch