Five-fold Ministry & Gifts

While I've seen much damage to the proclaimed giftings of the Spirit and many self-titling themselves prophet and apostle in the modern day charismatic church, particularly in the West, the problem I see is many not believing there even is such a thing in existence anymore. Where in the Word does it say that the gifts of the Spirit and the apostolic and prophetic offices have been put to a close? Are we so sure of the things we declare to be truth? Or are we adopting our views from the opinions and traditions of man? I've heard some say that they never see healings or miracles in America, so it's obvious they are no longer in existence. My response to that is just because it doesn't take place in America doesn't mean a thing. Have you gone to China? India? Saudi Arabia? Places where the persecution against the church is heavy, you will often find the Lord doing the miraculous in and through His body of believers. The dead are raised, the sick are healed, the demoniacs are set free, food is multiplied, men are caught away in the Spirit as Philip, etc. Jesus said greater works than these will you do. The works He was referring to was mentioned 2 verses before that, when He said if you do not believe me, believe me for the WORKS themselves. He was referring to His miracles. Yes, I disagree with many having "signs and wonders" conferences, as though you can manufacture the anointing of God. Many are seeking the signs and not the Savior, yet I still stand firm on the words of Christ and the prayer of Peter in Acts 4, "give us boldness to speak your word and stretch out your hand to heal, granting signs and wonders" SO be it Lord in our nation once again.

Hi Mattie ...i wish that i could remember the sermon in which the speaker said that God has not given His Church a five-fold ministry but in actuality a four-fold ministry because the role of the pastor is a dual one in which he is supposed to be a pastor and a teacher ... The speaker went on further to say that these four ministries are like the four legs of a spirtual table (with emphasis on who makes a five legged table) on which God places His Church and that without any one of them the table will fbe unstable (to say the least) ...As it stands today the only two callings that are pretty much accepted by the greater portion of the universal Body of Christ are the evangelist and pastor/teacher which makes me picture in by mind a two legged table ... i totally agree with your line of questioning "Where in the Word does it say that the gifts of the Spirit and the apostolic and prophetic offices have been put to a close?", and am one who believes that our Lord has called me as one of the now stigmatized and unmentionable ministries of the four ... Mine has been a walk with our Lord that has had it's share of frustration regarding this subject, much of which has been covered in long posts in the past here on SI ... But bless God as of late He's brought me to a point of "resting" in Him, His perfect planning, and most importantly His perfect timing ... If you notice i didn't say "wait" on our Lord which when one thinks about it requires some effort on ones part ... i said "rest", which requires no effort at all because once one learns to "rest" in our God, and the fact that He has everything under total control we can then stop our whining ,belly-aching and constant queries as to why He's allowed two legs (ministries) of His spiritual table to be pretty much damaged if not completely removed, and for some of us why perhaps He's called us to a ministry in Himself that no one else really believes exist anymore (for whatever the reason), or to why it seems to be taking so long to come to pass those things one believes one has been instructed to say or tell forth to the particular part of His Body that He's assigned one to ...For me personally i totally believe in it's entirety the following ...Eph.4[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:The next verse is why i don't believe any of the table-leg callings/ministries have been discontinued because it's obvious to me that the Church of Christ today ain't no where near the "unity of faith" nor "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" that would be required for these ministries to the Body to be ceased in any of their capacities for each ministry (to me) ministers to a specific area of need in the Body and acts as a divinely inspired system of checks and balances in Christ Church ...[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.i used to be one that "waited" on the Lord to fix us, His Body, and being the impatient sort that i am i can tell you that i find "waiting" on Him gut-wrenching because my question to Him was always "when Lord"? ... But Holy Spirit has brought me to a new place, a place that i've never been before, a place of "resting" in Him where my answer to any "when" question to Him has become "Lord, Thou knowest" and "Lord, Thy will be done all in Your own perfect timing" ... It's like this old expression that i'm about to take some artistic liberty with ... "Ours is not to wonder how, when or why ... Ours is but to do His will and die to our contantly questioning "self" ... DAILY!" ...Mattie you ended your post;"yet I still stand firm on the words of Christ and the prayer of Peter in Acts 4, "give us boldness to speak your word and stretch out your hand to heal, granting signs and wonders" SO be it Lord in our nation once again."i touch and agree with you in this prayer as it testifies to so much of what i've been hearing Him say to me in the past 20 years ... i believe REVIVAL is coming to America via a "fire" that will try the faith of most, and in that "fire" i also believe that the dross that now so horribly and visibly occupy the two now stigmatized and unmentionable callings will be burned away so that the true ministers of God in these capacities will shine thru once more in union and unity with the evangelist and pastor/teacher ... God has a plan, His plan, and His own time-table to execute His plan of making us His glorious Bride without spot or blemish before He comes to get us ... i sense in my spirit the immenient falling of His latter rain, but no longer under the agonizing weight/wait of "when Lord"?, but now under the rest of His perfect peace that says "whenever Lord, if ever in my lifetime ... Thou knowest" ... Blessings in Christ Jesus! ... :-D Bro R

I agree that many things in the body have become mechanical. Things as we call the five fold ministry is something we try to many times to grasp a hold of. Even so many who call themselves apostles today are no where near the persecution, and suffering the apostles in acts went through. Not only that but they now call them bishops and they try to say that apostolic and bishopric are the same in office. This is clearly poor teaching. Plus many people try too hard to distinguish between gifts not knowing that many of the gifts intertwine with each other. To preach you have to teach and vice versa. Yea we can come up with difference for both but the truth is they are both the same. Like porphecy too. Too often people try to tell the future thinking thats what prophecy is all about. Thats a lie because if you studt prophecy in both testaments you can see that its also the same as preaching. and some evangelists are pastors and teachers. The apostles were evangelists too. I know that certain people operate in their specific office but like most ministries these days, they ry to come up with a formula to distiguish between gifts. Too often we love the gift rather than the giver.

A lot of the problems we encounter with "five-fold ministry" and those that run in the circles that use the term is that many people are simply interested in trying to establish their own ministry. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (or however you want to group those), are called not to establish their ministry and their authority. Or in otherwords, their purpose is not to get churches to recognize their calling or "gift." This is often what is done. But biblically speaking, the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ought to have one concern, and one concern only: establishing Christ. Many so-called modern day "apostles" (and I believe there are such) are simply interested in getting churches to accept their ministry position within their current existing hierarchies, or better yet, let them be on top of that pyramid. As Paul said, "We do not preach ourselves as Lord, but Christ, and we as your slaves." To often, with so many ministries, especially the CEO-pastor model, is it not the other way around?