Is it wrong to speak out against church abuse?

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The Word says not to recieve an accusation against an elder. I supose in offenses the best model is the cross carrying Christ and a strong prayer life. Ask God for wisdom, it might just be a character building experience.As to you illustration on rape. I want to caution you on doing as the world does. They take a cause, place a spin init like some kind of remote 1 in a million setting, an example would be the lawsuit placed by an aids victim who was fired by an employer because of the discovery of a gay lifestyle, and they build thier arguement from there. They get sympathy from the gerenal public for thier underlying cause by making the hero the one and the bad guy the other. Don't do that.I would probably seek out mature christian believers who you can pray with and possiblly a christian (I hate to use the term) counsilor.

Is it wrong to speak out against church abuse?The answer to this question is "yes", and "no". Not only that, there are many different ways that we can address it - good ways and bad ways. There are a lot of considerations. Control, manipulation, and domination are always wrong, and we need to learn to recognize it. God has never called any of us to defend a sick, abusive system, or protect the unrepentant spirual leader. Doing so only enables this sin to continue and harm many others. We must learn to recognize our own part of this problem and take appropriate measures. Also, we need to be aware of our own tendencies to assert ourselves over others - try to control them. It is a very subtle thing that most of us are not even aware of. The prophets, Jesus, and also the apostles spoke against spiritual abuse. However, as you know, there were serious repercussions for them all. Before addressing it, I'd suggest that you gain a good understanding of it. Here are some websites: Spiritual Abuse: An IntroductionSpriitual Abuse: Recovery ResourcesI recommend you read Jeff VanVonderan" book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" There is a cost to healing, as Scripture reveals - the old system wants to "spit" you out. However, the rewards are eternal, and well worth it - it is the path to Christ's FREEDOM. And God will use you to help many others be set free. May God bless you as you seek him for guidance and strength in the days ahead. Diane

The last post addressed spiritual (church) abuse in general. Here are some more specific answers to your specific questions you, your family and many others you know were seriously hurt by an abusive church is it a sin to say anything publicly because that would damage their reputation? The reason for this “law” is sinful in itself – a cover-up attempt. However, that doesn’t mean that speaking out is totally to be condoned. The Bible gives procedures: one at a time, then with two, then publicly... many other factors to consider. If you were to hear someone speaking about these issues, do you believe it is healthy to force the person expressing themselves to separate the pain of the experience from the experience? Actually, quite the opposite: it is unhealthy! what would you think of the person who criticized a rape victim for crying while they testified against the person who did it? A calloused person Would they be right for asking the person to be more objective? The assumption in this request is that crying implies the lack of objectivity. That is a false judgment. If there were NO feelings, that could be a lack of “objectivity” - think of sociopaths. They have no feeling. If not why do we offer people who are suffering from spiritual rape less compassion? It's like the first thing you're told is "get over it. and dont say anything until you do." Why is that? Again, a very calloused answer. I think fear may be an issue here –fear of having to empathize with such depth of pain... Fear of experiencing one’s own hidden pain via the “victim”. Also, through years of exposure, something doesn't feel wrong anymore. So, being violated spiritually is no big deal. The conscience gets dead to these things after a while, and feelings go away. The bible calls this "seering" of the consceince. Empathy is gone. The hardened heart can no longer can "weep with those who are weeping, and rejoice with those who rejoice" Rom. 12: Also, do you believe that truth outweighs position? Always, but that doesn’t give a subordinate the freedom to say what they think. There are many factors. Consider the importance of EARNING the right to speak, building trust. . ..a brand new member has the authority to rebuke a pastor if the pastor is clearly in Sciptural error? Rebuke can mean a lot of things. It may mean simply setting a good example. Have you ever felt rebuked by someone else’s good example. (ex: you think, wow!, I’m sure not that loving , and I should be) Consider the need for applying truth in love. What Scriptures would you use to support your point of view on any of these topics. There are many scriptures that speak of our relationships with others, and authorities our patience, etc Consider 1 Corithians 13: The Love Chapter. A good study: Give to Ceaser what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s. In other words, give to any leader what is rightfully theirs (our respect, service, etc) but NOT our hearts, our trust – that belongs to God. Knowing the difference is a challenge. Diane

My pastor once told me a story about an evangelist that was visiting a particular church for a long series revival (roughly a month long). One of the older ladies in that church discerned quickly the man wasn't much when it came to prayer, and she asked him to join the women praying at midnight in the sancturary, and there he would truly learn to pray. So, they got him nice and saturated in prayer, and he indeed drew closer to God than he had ever been in his entire life. The next day when he stood up in the pulpit, God had him start talking about the story of Natahn and David after David had killed Uriah and taken his wife. He was telling the story of how Nathan came and told David a parable which moved David to anger. And when David was moved to anger, Nathan blurted out "Thou art that man!" Then the evangelist through a word of knowledge went walking down the isle and said, "God has shown me that there is somebody in this church that is running the place like he is a CEO and this is his business. God says that this is his church and you will no longer manipulate his people any longer." He came to place in the isle, stoped, and pointed to one of the elders and said, "thou art that man!" The elder got angry and went to attack the preacher, and immediately the Spirit of God came on that man and flattened him to the ground. The man tried to get up, but was unable to. God really convicted him, and the man crawled all the way from his seat up to the altar and cried out, "OH GOd, have mercy on me a sinner!" And it is reported at that time a powerful move of God broke out right there in the congregation. Nobody is above rebuke and correction. There is a biblical way of doing things, and we must follow that. However, not even leaders are above rebuke from the "layity." There are times when this process however, is not heeded by the congregation out of a sense of timidity, or where secret sins are done. In such times, God sends his Nathan's into the church to expose those in error. E.g. Peter with Ananias and Saphira.

I have been in churches where spiritual abuse has happened. But it didnt happen to me (tho they tried) because I was able to discern what was happening, and we just simply left. I hate to put it like this, but I think most who are spiritually abused allow themselves to be because they do not know the scriptures. They are not students of the WordI like what Krispy is saying here.It is my experience that most 'spiritual abuse" is passive aggressive...that is they don't conquer you by physical force. Instead, spiritual authority can often create a cult-like atmosphere of control through flattery at first, and then bargains of extra power for extra loyalty and obedience, or conversely...effective condemnation for disloyalty. (I realize am grossly generalizing...)More often then not, it is our celebrity worship of pastors and prophets that gets us, and them, into trouble.When I realized I had allowed myself to be subjugated in an unhealthy manner, I had to admit that I became snared through some character fault of my own...these experiences can be painful learning lessons about my own immaturity, spiritual ambition, and idolatry. The bottom line is that, in a socitey that offers many choices for church, the only way a pastor can have abusive power over his people is if they want him to.Note that I am commenting about subtle emotional (and financial) control specifically. I do realize that emotional control can sometimes be a prelude to physical or sexual seduction. If there is physical force or sexual activity involved, the matter becomes much more black and white in my perspective. There is simply too much sexual wickedness being protected in church boardrooms at the expense of little sheep that need a safe place to graze. When I think about these issues, I realize how difficult it is to be a really good elder or pastor, or teacher. Church leadership requires mature men and women who are examples to the flock… an inspiration who does not inspire cult-worship. I am so very thankful to God for good men and women who fill leadership roles, yet I realize that they are also fragile vessels that need my faithful prayer!MC

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Here is a past discussion with accompanying links that may be of some help and counsel. Could not recommend more highly the messages mentioned there from Stephen Kaung on spiritual authority.What isn't "Speaking against God's annointed"

Jesus rebuked people that he had never "earned" a right to speak too. So did John the Baptist. In fact that's what got them killed wasn’t it?I'm totally with you on this one! There are times when we simply will never "earn" the right in the eyes of the abusers (or their colaborators). We will be silenced - told to keep our mouth shut. (My how handy a lot of verses are for justifying this kind of ungodly rebuke.) However, I do believe that God can lead the way when we must speak out. He can open the door. He can also close the door and instead remove us from the situation. I did mention the need to take our own responsibility if we are the victim. But I also caution: It is all to easy to say to someone who has been devestated by abuse, "You should know better. Just don't put up with it. Get over it..." These kind of comments express a gross inability to understand the suffering of the victim and their 'role' in the abuse. I find that spiritual abuse is virtually NEVER discussed in church - or even the concepts. If churches would only listen to the therapists of those who have been damaged by the church, they could learn so much, and prevent a lot of damage.It's been said that the church keeps psychiatrists in business. Some churches are healthier than others and I think it has to do with a lot of hidden relational/spiritual dynamics going on - maybe even for generations. Also, as Krispy implied, GOOD DOCTIRNE IS HEALTHY FOR EVERYONE. Sadly people take their dysfunctions into the church and spread it like a disease. Then they make the bible say whatever they want to justify and hide their faulty behaviors. Almost no one believes that they have bad doctrine. And almost no one believes that they are a perpetrator of abuse. I don't see mentioned yet the reality of power structure. Sorry to say, but the ground is not level. There are people who simply cannot stand against the abuse of those who hold power and authority - like a child and parent. Indeed, the child may be part of the problem, but they are dependants. They can't just leave or even challenge the problem because that would too threatening. It is like that in any institution. You mentioned large groups being a safer environment because that avoids the emeshment that can foster abuse. But I would like to challenge that. People in the pupit can use their power, authority, and charisma to heap very suble abuse on eveyone - and lay guilt trips - ex: to get people to tithe, join, trust in THEIR teachings, and far worse. (example.... oh, I better not mention a name) Of course some adherants are more vulnerable than others - depending on their own spiritual/emotional state. Sadly, countless people are very willingly submitting themselves to the manipulation of a very charismatic type of leader. Imagine all the pain that they will encounter when they realize that they were decieved. We need to learn how to be instruments of healing. You can tell that I have experienced some spiritual abuse in my past, and that is why I am passionate about addressing this topic. Let's keep it going. I believe that the "beast" in Revelation will be an abuser - seducing the masses to follow him. Another reason to keep the topic going. Diane

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About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that? If I understand the original purpose for this thread it was to seek helpful suggestions for victims of abuse. Now I'm wondering if you asked because you are giving us a test - to see if we have the "right" answers. Yes, I left off any name (like one that popped into my mind) for a definite reason: because of the tendency of the reader to focus on that person rather than the problem we are discussing here. We would do far better to learn about the nature of spiritual abuse (ie damaging misuse of power) than merely name names. That way we can see it for what it is and avoid the lure. Even better than that: we need to understand human nature, ourselves.. see our bent to be part of this problem in religion. Better yet: Read Mike's attatchments and learn about Godly authority so that we can discern ungodly authority. I got stated in them - delicious stuff! Even better yet: we need to learn how to make Christ our ultimate authority in our lives. That is the best way to avoid the lure of abusers.Oh, how could I forget: We need to learn how to effectively minister to those who have been damaged by authority figures of any kind. DianePS: just curious.... how do you feel about the links I suggested... helpful????

About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that?There is no problem with that, in fact I think it is a necessity. It helps to warn other to be extra leery of those whose names have been named. If names are named other might not be drawn in so far as to be spiritually raped as you put it. Wouldn't you want to know if a sex offender just released from prison moved in next door or down the street. Well the same thing goes for those spiritual rapists who are running churches and ministries in the name of Jesus. And also, I have seen people wake up to the deception they were under when names have been mentioned. A while back I saw that happen to a guy on another forum who said "T.D. Jakes! - Oh my! I would have never thought you were talking about him! I love that guy me and him are hommies! I will definitely check out and research what you say!"a couple of posts later -"I checked it out and you are right - that's it I'm done with TBN forever - I'm never going to watch that station again!!!" Praise the Lord!!!! Now what if the person making the original post was too cowardly to name names? This guy would still be thinking him and Jakes are hommies and watching TBN every night.No friend, to name names is imperative and necessary. Name are always mentioned in the Scriptures unless everyone knows who is being spoken of (like the guy who was sleeping with his fathers wife in the Corinthian Church - everyone knew who was being spoken of - or I can assure you their would have been a name) In order to follow the Biblical pattern we must name names so that everyone know who we are talking about.If any of you read my last post (the one that was pulled) I'm sure you realize my name is mud right now, because of some of the stuff i said, but I'd rather have it no other way because if I'm wrong then bless God at least I'm not a coward. I sure hope you post wasn't pulled because of names you mentioned. I have seen numerous names mentioned here on sermonindex (Olsen, Katz, Warren, Reidhead, Bickle, Joyner, Comfort, Robertson, Graham, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) if there is some new rule against speaking about specific people or ministries, I lost the memo. Now most of these discussion were concerning the Scriptural validity of doctrinal issues and the such. But if one was to have first hand knowledge of any ministry or teacher/preacher, I can't imagine the moderators of this site pulling the post. Did you receive any explanation of why your post pulled? If it was how you said it that was at issue, I would encourage to repost the names and ministry in a format that is more acceptable to the sites moderators. The moderators (in my experience) have always been willing to discuss such issues.