THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS is Jeruselem

Logic Mar 7, 2006

Every one says that THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS from Revelation 17:5 is Rome or papal Rome, but I don't find that anywere in scripture. I've recently done a study on the Seals, Trumpets, & the Vials and when I came to chapter 17, I found who the whore realy is.First of all God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore. I believe as the church is grafted into the Olive tree with Israel, the world is grafted in to the same tree as the whore. Therefore all that is left after God takes for His own, He punishes with His wrath.Revelations 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come here; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters: (Ref.verse:15):2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Ref. Eze 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Ref. Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1):4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (Ref Exo 28:5-9 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. :6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. :7 It shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. :8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. :9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: and 39:1-29Jer 4:30,31 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothed thyself with crimson, though thou decked thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rented thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. 31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewails herself, that spreads her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers 1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men::5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (See note for v.9 Ref. Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.):6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref Mat 23:34-37 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. :36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Luk 11:47-51 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. :48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. :49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: :50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Act 7:58-60 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. :59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. :60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. Note: I believe that John Marveled because he was shocked as you are.:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Note: Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.:9 And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. Note: There are really only a few choices that the seven mountains could be Babylon, Rome, or Jerusalem. I’d like to suggest that it is Jerusalem as you could tell from my scripture references through out this chapter. Jerusalem is recognized by Israel and God calls her a harlot in the book of Hosea. This is a time that God is dealing with Israel and not Rome. The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem to rule and to take his seat in the very temple of God and claim to be God. Ref, 2Thes. 2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, salutes you; and so doth Marcus my son. Eze 16:36-37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; :37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short while. Note: 1. Egypt (1600-1200 BC), 2. Assyria (900-600 BC), 3. Babylon (606-536 BC) which is the lion Dan 7:4 4. Medo-Persia (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5 5. Greece (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard Dan 7:6 6. Rome (200 BC-400 AD), 7. Rome. Dan 7:7 the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. Note: there is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government that the anti-Christ will take advantage of.:12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (Ref. Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.,24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. :14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.:15 And he said unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Ref. 17:1):16 And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.Note: They will hate Israel who is now the whore (Ref. Eze 16:37-41 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. :38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. :39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. :40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. :41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. :18 And the woman which thou saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2006

Very good Logic.Your right our LORD wasn't crucified in Rome, He was crucified in Jerusalem which spiritualy is Sodom and Egypt.Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.Your very close to understanding some things. Don't set what you have learned in concrete, other things must come together to make it complete.Keep learning! :-)

sermonindex Mar 7, 2006

THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS IS NOT JERUSALEMSorry for getting a bit emphatic there, but I am.I will have to quickly post on this one for now and "I'll be back." Sorry it's going to be a messy post for me too because I need to use the Numbered KJ ...Eternal Destruction with desolation and burning of Babylon FOREVER & FOREVER. The Lord returns to Mt. Olive and will reign from Jerusalem. How could he destroy Jerusalem forever and forever ?No where does God say he will destroy Jerusalem/Zion FOREVER... quite the contrary... HE will rescue and save her in the end. There are hundreds of promises in the O.T. that say this. It was/ is His Promise to Zion~Jerusalem. The eternal destuction of Babylon ~Rev 18:8 Therefore1223, 5124 shall her848 plagues4127 come2240 in1722 one3391 day,2250 death,2288 and2532 mourning,3997 and2532 famine;3042 and2532 she shall be utterly burned2618 with1722 fire:4442 for3754 strong2478 is the Lord2962 God2316 who judgeth2919 her.846 G2618κατακαίω katakaiō kat-ak-ah'ee-oFrom G2596 and G2545; to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:14 And2532 the3588 fruits3703 that thy4675 soul5590 lusted after1939 are departed565 from575 thee,4675 and2532 all things3956 which were dainty3045 and2532 goodly2986 are departed565 from575 thee,4675 and2532 thou shalt find2147 them846 no more at all.3765, 3364 G3765οὐκέτι ouketi ook-et'-eeAlso (separately) οὐκ ἔτι ouk eti ook et'-eeFrom G3756 and G2089; not yet, no longer: - after that (not), (not) any more, henceforth (hereafter), not, no longer (more), not as yet (now), now no more (not), yet (not).G3364 οὐ μή ou mēoo mayThat is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378. · " Shall find them 'no more at all' " . "Doubled-double negative with future active. As emphatic a negation as the Greek can make."{Robertsons}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:21 And2532 a1520 mighty2478 angel32 took up142 a stone3037 like5613 a great3173 millstone,3458 and2532 cast906 it into1519 the3588 sea,2281 saying,3004 Thus3779 with violence3731 shall that great3173 city4172 Babylon897 be thrown down,906 and2532 shall be found2147 no more at all.2089, 3364 { Shall be found no more at all . Double negative with first aorist passive subjunctive of euriskō. } (Greek font won’t display.) Rev 18:22 And2532 the voice5456 of harpers,2790 and2532 musicians,3451 and2532 of pipers,834 and2532 trumpeters,4538 shall be heard191 no more at all2089, 3364 in1722 thee;4671 and no3956 craftsman,5079 of whatsoever3956 craft5078 he be, shall be found2147 any more2089, 3364 in1722 thee;4671 and2532 the sound5456 of a millstone3458 shall be heard191 no more at all2089, 3364 in1722 thee;4671 Rev 18:23 And2532 the light5457 of a candle3088 shall shine5316 no more at all2089, 3364 in1722 thee;4671 and2532 the voice5456 of the bridegroom3566 and2532 of the bride3565 shall be heard191 no more at all2089, 3364 in1722 thee:4671 for3754 thy4675 merchants1713 were2258 the3588 great men3175 of the3588 earth;1093 for3754 by1722 thy4675 sorceries5331 were all3956 nations1484 deceived.4105 The sixth instance of , emphatic double negative. in Rev_18:14,21-23, G2089ἔτι et'-eePerhaps akin to G2094; “yet”, still (of time or degree): - after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-) henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more (-one), now, still, yet.G3364 οὐ μή ou mēoo mayThat is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.Again, “no more at all..” ~ " Shall find them no more at all " . "Doubled-double negative with future active. As emphatic a negation as the Greek can make."{Robertsons}Isa 34:10 It shall not3808 be quenched3518 night3915 nor day;3119 the smoke6227 thereof shall go up5927 forever:5769 from generation4480, 1755 to generation1755 it shall lie waste;2717 none369 shall pass through5674 it forever5331 and ever.5331{Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.}H5331, twice, makes this a double emphatic.נצח נצח neh'-tsakh, nay'-tsakhFrom H5329; properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Jer 50:40 As God430 overthrew4114 (853) Sodom5467 and Gomorrah6017 and the neighbor7934 cities thereof, saith5002 the LORD;3068 so shall no3808 man376 abide3427 there,8033 neither3808 shall any son1121 of man120 dwell1481 therein. {Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.} Jer 51:26 And they shall not3808 take3947 of4480 thee a stone68 for a corner,6438 nor a stone68 for foundations;4146 but3588 thou shalt be1961 desolate8077 forever,5769 saith5002 the LORD.3068 Jer 51:62 Then shalt thou say,559 O LORD,3068 thou859 hast spoken1696 against413 this2088 place,4725 to cut it off,3772 that none1115 shall1961 remain3427 in it, neither man4480, 120 nor5704 beast,929 but3588 that it shall be1961 desolate8077 forever.5769 H5769עלם עולם o-lawm', o-lawm'From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703. Revelation's accounts with Cross references - Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Jer 51:13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.Jer 50:39 Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited forever {another double emphatic- forever means forever.5331}; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation. Jer 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling place for dragons, an astonishment, and a hissing, without an inhabitant. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Isa 47:15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast labored, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Jer 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompense. Jer 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. Jer 51:50 Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Jer 51:9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. Jer 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Isa 47:7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady forever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. Isa 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. Isa 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. Isa 47:10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Isa 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Jer 50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbor cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.Notes onIsa 34. Verse 8 on - "recompenses for the controversy of Zion"--that is, the year when God will retaliate on those who have contended with Zion. {JFB}Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: Etc. through Chapter 18, about "Merchants". What other City was the trade capital of the world, to the extent that it can Fulfill Rev. 18 ? Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever. In the O.T. Prophecies (yet unfufilled) about Babylon's Destruction, it is both, "forever" and for what Babylon had done "against" Zion/Jerusalem. Jer 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.Side notes ... Babylon has a "Mother"... England !The second “Babel” .......What is the International "Language" of the Last Days ?From what Nation did the International Computer Language originate ?From what Nation did the communication media originate ... from telephones to Internet ?From which Nation did the Bio-chip orginate ?Which Nation holds the center of United Nations and New World Order ? www.newamericancentury.org Which Nation "mounts up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength..." ? Jer 51:53 ( www.space4peace.org ) ... "Full Spectrum Dominance"What nation has over 150 internment camps, with gas chambers, guillotines, train cars with handcuffs welded into them, is the promoter of “population reduction” through biological annihilation expertise and weapons.Who broke the genome code ? And to what end ?What Nation parallels Ancient Babel the closest, i.e. "and nothing shall be impossible to them." Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 10:8 And Cush begot Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as "Nimrod" the mighty hunter before the LORD. Gen 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel...Industrial leader, also Militarily and Beast system technology of tracking and surveillance invented there, stretches forth as the hammer of all the earth, leader in pornography & drug trafficing, Music industry, you name it, it’s more that likely been invented in Babylon and will one day be the leader in death of the Saints and prophets. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. These four beasts arise and are present when the Saints take the kingdom. Concurrent ! Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (She ‘was’ a Christian nation ~ “a golden cup in the Lord’s hand.” The most missionaries, and Gospel publishings & ministries.)Now the hammer of the whole earth and founder/originator of the new world religion and propagator of the NWO.Rev 18:17-19 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, and cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city and they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.Economically and governmentally for the new world order, New York City is Head.Headquarters for the CFR (a globalist council) and many other NWO org.s and formulators are also there.Is also a seaport for merchants. Jerusalem is not.The main point being, the double-double emphatics of Babylon’s destruction being Forever and forever.That main point alone, proves that it cannot be Jersusalem, where Christ will return, as the O.T. says, to reek revenge on those who came Against Jersusalem and had their Antichrist defile their temple, claiming to be God.Just one chpt. of the many Scriptures that states this ...........Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~But thankfully, we still have some freedom to debate.I can't handle it Logic ... but I love you brother.Hope you'll look my post over, please. I did read yours.Thanks, Annie

Logic Mar 7, 2006

God has His holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven.Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!Question: Did Jerusalem kill the prophets and stone the ones sent to it ordid Israel do all that?God equates the city to the people that dwell in it. Jeruselem is not the harlot when the True Israel of God is still here.Since His people are with Him at the time when He sends His judgment on the harlot Jeruselem, He judges it as the people in it, which is the harlot Israel.Zecheriah 14 is before God takes His people, so He won't judge Jeruselem then as the harlot. She become the harlot after He takes His people.You quoted:Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. His People are in Israel and not the literal Baylon. Balylon is Jeruselem even though it isn't geographicly, so all your points which are for Babylon is correct but you must know that He is talking about the spiritual Babylon, Jeruselem which is when His people are out of it and with Him.Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.compareLamentations 1:1 How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.Rev 18:23 "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived". compareMatt 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." andMatthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." andMatthew 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

CJaKfOrEsT Mar 8, 2006

Logic wrote:God has His holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven.This seems very Logical:-P but it neglects some other logical facts. The questions that need to be asked are:Is Babylon's destruction before or after the return of Christ?Is the Millenium before or after Judgement Day?Is the old Heaven and Earth destroyed before Christ returns?Does the New Heaven and Earth come before the old is cast into the Lake of Fire?Does the New Jerusalem descend into the old Earth or the New?If the New Jerusalem desends into the old Earth, is it cast into the fire with it?My head is killing me, where's the aspirin?I'm not going to answer all these questions, but simply present them to set a "logical stage". As Annie pointed out, God's has promised to keep and restore Jerusalem, where Babylon is to be utterly destroyed. Granted, keeping and restoring implies a destruction of a sort, but not utter destruction. The prophets were clear in pointing out the the Time of Jacob's trouble would begin in Jerusalem, and would lead to the Jew being sifted through the nations (which is how we know that this prophecy hasn't been fulfilled in it's entirety yet). This would imply a chaotic turmoil in the city, perhaps to the point of near destruction, but it will not be utter.The millenial reign of Christ is clearly before the White Throne Judgement (indicated by it's occurance between the first and second ressurection), and this time will be when the "Law will go out from Jerusalem". Granted, Christ could reign from an utterly destroyed city, or even replace it with a new one (hey, there'll be a thousand years to kill), but it would appear unlikely, and it is also unmentioned. Note also that the cry "Babylon has fallen", Satan is bound, and the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before the millenium.After the millenium, at some point before or durin the White Throne Judgement, the heaven and earth are cast into the Lake of Fire. Therefore if the New Jersalem descends before this, then it is also cast in, leading to the final Jerusalem being the third or even fourth model (again, no mention of this).Finally we see the new Heaven and Earth descending, with the New jerusalem in it's midst. This is where the lie of gnostic dualism is given it's last nail, because we don't arrive at a new destination called heaven, but we dwell eternally upon a new earth, with the Father dwelling in out midst.I'll be the first to admit that all this doesn't disprove your assertions, but it offers a logical basis for reconsidering your logical assertions.May I suggest you check out Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History (link to thread which contains links to series in listening order)? I present this so you may consider the "Historical Meathod" of interpretation of the Book of Revelation. Perhaps you have studied it before, but if you haven't, then it will explain why people say that Rome is Spiritual Babylon. If you're like me, you've never heard anything but a "Futrist Meathod" which holds that there is a "pre-trib rapture", while failing to describe the "other valid theories" that most admit are there.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

Hia brother Logic,Obviously I didn't do that write up today.I've encountered this teaching elsewhere and while I was off the internet for a while, all I had to do with my time, was work up things like this.Didn't want you to think I pop these things off in a matter of minutes :-? ... ha. That would be funny if I could.I also hope this thread won't last long ... because it's DEFINITELY going to upset someone out there ... that's why I'm responding later at night so it can drop by morning.You presented your case, and I've presented mine and either we see it one way or the other or we don't and I certainly don't see this teaching as from God as I heard it first years ago and there is no way that I see it either in the Old or New Testaments.No one has to believe as I do about what/where Babylon is ... but in my book ... anywhere 'but' Jerusalem I can tolerate.But this teaching to me will upset too many to keep bumping it.The New Jerusalem does not come down until after the millenial reign of Christ. You did not come up with this teaching on your own, and here we have that "my teacher of choice says" scenario again and I won't fight that ... because the Word interprets the Word only.With all due respects to you, this teaching really and truly offends me, in view of the absolute endless promises found toward Zion/Jerusalem and this teaching makes God a liar to them ... the remnant who are expecting Messiah to come as He said He would.This one sentence alone makes absolutely no sense at all .... Quote:"" His People are in Israel and not the literal Baylon. Balylon is Jeruselem even though it isn't geographicly, so all your points which are for Babylon is correct but you must know that He is talking about the spiritual Babylon, Jeruselem which is when His people are out of it and with Him."".... If you line it up with Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I think my first post has enough in it, though I could post all the rest of the promises to Zion/Jerusalem ... but Zech. 14 alone would suffice, nonetheless Rev. 18 and Isaiah 47 and Jeremiah 50 and 51 all talk about "God's revenge on Babylon for what it does to Jerusalem" and how the Lord is returning to STOP the invading army that comes against Jerusalem.This teaching has come on the heels of the expose of what some feel is the true Babylon, because they want to keep it away from their home base as much as possible and the saddest part is that it is taught by a "few" that call themselves Messianic.Israel is not innocent and will go through some heavy duty Stuff before Messiah comes to deliver her ... but eternal destruction BEFORE the Millenial reign ... NO.If I had a burlap tunic on, I would rent it in half whenever I hear this heresy.I'm sorry brother. I know it's not your fault that this teaching is in existance with few Scriptures to back it. But it's just sad.Love you brother Logic and I'll end this here.No further debate from this peanut gallery.Shalom to you and yours.Annie

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

Just one more "peanut". Woman get emotional and are entitled to change their mind. Ha.Logic, you said ... """God has His holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven."""I posted the whole chapter of Zec. 14 above, but just these 4 verses from it, blows the "New Jerusalem" idea out of the "many waters" ....Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. The New Jerusalem will not have these things.This is the millenial reign of Christ when He will Need to rule with a rod of iron.No need for Him to do that in the New Jerusalem.Peace between us.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

Alrighty than, How do we decide which is spiritual and which is symbolic? Does CNN decide that for us?That which we can't understand we label spiritual.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

If you're interested in why I believe ROME is the location of the Mother of Whores (i.e. the Roman Catholic Church) then follow this link. I cant post it here because it is copyrighted.http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl030003.htmThis is written by Dave Hunt, a leading scholar of End Times theology, and this link is Chapter 6 of his book "A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days"Krispy

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

Hi y'all, We needn't take any more as Not literal than necessary.Also by cross-referencing, which in eschatology, works like a beautiful puzzle.Regarding MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH {I didn't put that in Capitals, that's how it is in the KJ} ......... when the books were written, as you know, there was No division of Chapters and Verses ... so Rev 17 is the beginning sentences or Rev 18 ....... there is not 2 Harlots there, it is ONE.If one read through to Rev 18, that chpt. in particular is very literal and cannot be Jerusalem or Rome, just for that one chpt alone.Fortunately, we've been given by God's mercy, many cross-references in the O.T. that compliment these in Rev 17 & 18.It is only when looked at as a whole and NOT spiritualized, that the almost 100 perimeters that describe Babylon in Scripture, are fulfilled by only one place. To find Babylon any other way is to HAVE to spiritualize where it's not mandated.The ancient Church, from the time persecution started from Rome, to the reformers and right up until the 20th Century 'thought' it was Rome ... until more of Rev 18 specifically was one by one coming up literally. It appears, after we look at every opinion, that the 'spiritualizing' comes in, when we don't want to admit to the literalness of Rev. 18. But we may want to reread that chapt. and decide, because the reason there is so much description of Babylon for us, is because we are told to "come out from her" ... in other words, trust and dependence should cease for our own spiritual health.Lord Bless.

Logic Mar 8, 2006

I proove my point that it is Jeruselem by Scripture.CJaKfOrEsTwrote: questions that need to be asked are:Is Babylon's destruction before or after the return of Christ?Before, but we must know when the return is. Babylon's destruction is Rev. Rev. 18 and His return is 19:11-16Is the Millenium before or after Judgement Day?Is the old Heaven and Earth destroyed before Christ returns? Before. The Millenium is in Rev.20:4-6. Judgement Day is 20:1-15.Does the New Heaven and Earth come before the old is cast into the Lake of Fire?After.Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Does the New Jerusalem descend into the old Earth or the New? The New:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.``````````````````````````````````````````````````````Rev.18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Ref. Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. :44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished. :45 Then goes he, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generationRev.18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded and decked with gold and precious stone, and pearls! Ref Exo 28:8-9 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. :9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:,Jer 4:30-31 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothes thyself with crimson, though thou decks thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rents thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. :31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewails herself, that spreads her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.Rev.18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all the ones having been slain on the earth.(Ref Mat 23:34-37 werefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. :36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Luk 11:50-51 That, the blood of all the prophetsthe which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; :51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. 1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all menI have a question; Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.My question is why would these ten horns hate anybody else besides Israel? They wouldn't, all through history the world hated Israel. Here is my answer:Eze 16:37-41 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. :38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. :39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. :40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. :41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more

sermonindex Mar 8, 2006

Thats all find and dandy, but WHO decides what is taken literally and what is taken spiritually?We can say that God decides, but it seems that we are all listening to God and getting different messages.I can cross reference until I am cross eyed, but in the end who sets this stuff in stone that this is speaking of literal things, and this over here is speaking spiritual?

CJaKfOrEsT Mar 9, 2006

Logic wrote:I have a question; Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.My question is why would these ten horns hate anybody else besides Israel? They wouldn't, all through history the world hated Israel. I'm glad we agree on the answers to the questions presented. I didn't quote the scripture because I didn't need to. You obviously know where they are:-P. My reason for posting them is that you seem to imply that the New Jerusalem is the Jerusalem that won't be "utterly destroyed". I find no biblical precedant for that assertion, as scripture seems to imply that a remnant is preserved, not that it the old model is replaced by the new. And as you put it, the New Jerusalem descends after the old Heaven and Earth are destroyed (utterly no less).In response to your question, I direct you again to my earlier post where I posted a link to Parkyn's Church History series. In this he proves in scripture who the Ten Horns were and history provides some very clear confirmation that answers that question. So I say to you listen to the series (whether objectively or critically...I don't mind) and then if you still don't know the answer, I'll tell you.To paraphrase AW Tozer "Scripture is always reasonable, although it at times transcends reason." Logical conclusions can be found all through scripture, and so can pretexts and superstitions, which generally appear to be the most logical of all.

sermonindex Mar 9, 2006

Hey Logic,I'm not a Historicist... but from the perspective that I'm from ... has these 10 kingdoms in a map now called the "Ten Bio-Regions" and I have that map from a Calvary Chapel website and a few other Christian Websites. So it's not "conspiracy theory stuff" as some far too quickly say, without further examining the evidence.One day, that map will be how this earth is split ... that's why the map was drawn up.Ten regions of the globe will need ten heads or horns if you will.Anyhow, the UN has already written that they plan to eventual be in the "International City", which is Jerusalem.They are also set up for 10 "Heads" of these 10 Bio-Regions.We know that one day ... the antiChrist will put his seat in Jerusalem ... so no one can utterly destroy the place where Christ will return to stop those armies trying to take Jerusalem 'for' the antiChrist.Just figure it out brother ... you're being lied to and it is antiChrist spirits that say the place that Jesus is coming to save "with His Armies" is Babylon.Please think this through and put these teachers stuff down long enough to hear God's Word on this. Not my words but His Word.Love you brother.Annie

GaryE Mar 9, 2006

This is what will happen during the tribulation. God will pour out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will by then know that the Anti-Christ is not the Messiah because of the abomination of desolation. There will be a remnant of Jews that will look upon him {Jesus} who they have pierced.Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

Logic Mar 11, 2006

Is there a link for the 10 bio regions. I've heard of them and know about them too. I'd like to see that map.

sermonindex Mar 11, 2006

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/maps/1900s/1942world.jpghttp://endtimepilgrim.org/tenhorns.htm

CyberCarbon Mar 12, 2006

I think we all should guard against becoming the Mother of all Harlots. My personal favorite for the nomination is the United States Federal Government. But what do I know. The Roman church is an easy target because it is so old and well established. With a long history and extensive reach, any organization is going to have policies and people who fit. However, God will look at the hearts of the faithful and judge the faithless.

h2oboy Mar 13, 2006

CyberCarbon as you know there are many in the world who hate the USA and some have said that the US Government or its president is the "Great Satan." I would like to suggest that identifying the Great Whore with any nation may be narrow sighted. Consider instead that democracy is the adulteress that causes men to leave their covenant with God and worship "man." "Government by the people, for the people, of the people" where is the sovereignty of God? Look at what democracy has produced: evolution rather than creation as the standard of education, the prosperity doctrine (new version of the American Dream also known as 'the love of money'), faith in science and medicine rather than God, modification of standards of right and wrong based on popular opinion, sports idols, entertainment idols, business idols, automotive idols, housing idols,etc.Where in the Bible does God tell us to take a vote to select or depose a leader or ruler? Where does it say that the way that seems right to man (if a majority) is righteous or justified?Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold, a white horse , and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer." ASVIs it possible this hero riding on a white steed who comes to overthrow tyrannts and despots is the great champion of the people, who takes the control out of the hands of the elite and gives it to the common man, democracy, which had its roots in Rome? This great system of governance, which has no real Lord or Master, promotes free enterprise, that wonderful cup of wine that makes all the merchants of the world drunk with greed (causing the death and destruction of many righteous men and women) will be lamented when kings shall rise and smite her. What other system or rule has or will produce so much idolatry?

CyberCarbon Mar 13, 2006

The popular thing is to point at the Romans, my point is that there are many many more more qualified. My personal choice is the USofA. You may disagree that's OK.