The Azusa Street Centennial

http://www.azusastreet100.netWhat do you think about this? Thousands of Churches aregathering for this next month. Among those speaking will be:Kenneth CopelandGloria CopelandJerry SavellePaula WhiteBenny HinnT.D. JakesCreflo DollarI noticed the Assemblies of God are endorsing this on their website. Also the Church of God... How can they endorse it when the above speakersteach totally contrary to the Assemblies of God position papers?Where are the shepherds today?AG Position Paper on Positive Confession aka Word of Faith Movement :-(

I don't think that what they are celebrating is what will be found at the celebration. As a member of the AoG, I would hope there would be more discernment on the part of our leaders.

Centennial Servant Leader Level ($100) Make a sacrifice and let your registration gift match the Centennial number (100). At this level, you will receive a ribboned Centennial medallion, a parchment participation certificate, a souvenir name badge, and access to all Centennial events. Regular Level ($25) At this level, you will receive a keepsake Centennial coin, a parchment participation certificate, a souvenir name badge, and access to all Centennial events. There is your prices.. you are sure to get something out of the deal, atleast a coin or medallion. :-(

I don't think it would bother me if the mentioned people were at the meeting... BUT these false teachers are going to be SPEAKERS. So if you are sending your people there, are you not exposing them to these wolves?

JCGarc55 wrote:I don't think it would bother me if the mentioned people were at the meeting... BUT these false teachers are going to be SPEAKERS. So if you are sending your people there, are you not exposing them to these wolves?Exactly!

Somehow, I doubt this is how Seymour and the like hoped to be remembered by. Last I checked, you could get into the Azusa Street mission for free. Like Ravenhill said when Pentecostal denominations often get together for their annual meetings, nobody knows they are there except for them taking up space at the hotel. I also see the likes of false prophets such as Bill Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, Creflo Dollar will be there. Really though, $25 (minimum ticket price) ain't a bad ticket price for 4 days of access to all the various meetings that will be taking place. I mean, practically speaking, somebody has to pay for all the rooms that will be used for this.Sadly though, with as many "spirit-filled" people that are meeting at this place, you'd think the entire city of Los Angelas would get saved.

i find it sadly typical that so much hype is being put into the celebration of a past movement of the Holy Spirit (tho there be many who don't attribute Azusa St. to the Holy Spirit from jump street) that's gonna cost who knows how much $$$ (or should i say gonna make how much $$$?) ... But this same group won't move an inch to come together and fall on their faces between the porch and the altar, in solemn assembly of prayer and supplication to our Lord toward a new, much needed movement of the Spirit for these dark and ugly days we're living in now ...i'll even admit that i've had to do some heavy duty repenting to our Lord about my foul attitude toward this centinial, and my even worse attitude toward my own pastor who also can't seem to gumption himself, his ministerial staff, and his congregation toward a much needed prayer and repentance drive toward seeking our Lord for REVIVAL ... But he has no problem whatsoever attempting to drive the congregation toward signing a $1,000 vow (above already existent tithes and offerings) so that he can fast track on paying off the mortgage on his new cathedral (and i say "his" because "mega-churches" seem to me to fall more under the realm of "fleshly empire building" instead of "spiritual Kingdom building" ...To be totally honest, Lord knows i want to throw a rod about what seems to me to be the weird state of His Body, and in particular about the so called "it's all about the Benjamins" leadership ... Now before somebody takes me to task about it not being every church/pastor, that may be the case, but it sure seems to me that the majority of the Body here in America (cause that's what i see) have somehow meandered down what i know is a dead end path ... A path, sadly to me, that i believe we're gonna have to hit the brick wall before we come to our senses about what Christ, and this Christian walk is truly about ... And in the meantime i feel like our Lord has me in a Waiting Room, and all i keep hearing Him say to me is "wait on Me, I have it all under control - And in fact what I really want you to do while waiting on Me is to learn to "REST" in Me ... It's not an easy thing for me to wait, and an even more ardous task for me to rest in a wait - But praise His Holy Name by His Spirit He's teaching me and i'm learning ...i'm so glad that He's the author and finisher of my faith, and that He's the One who began His good work in me and is determined to finish it ... When you're treadin on water that you know you can't swim ... Focus ... Focus ... Focus ... keeping your eyes/faith solely on Him ... and never mind the wind and the waves, especially the ones that originate in ones own mind about the will, way and timing of God ...i wasn't gonna post this latest e-mail i got from Strom's ministry but it's so apropos, and it's good to know i'm not the only one seeing Cathedrals ..."CATHEDRALS and MORE CATHEDRALS"-by Kerry M. Denten.I was getting ready yesterday to go out to my Grandmother’s 95thbirthday celebrations. While I was in that “autopilot” mode you getinto while showering and dressing, I found my mind wandering toconsidering some of the larger organised churches aroundAustralia and other parts of the world and was surprised by whatthe Lord showed me.I was considering Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas when mymind then meandered from the huge Minster (or Cathedral) in York,England to St Andrews Cathedral in Sydney. Then my thinkingwandered to the Crystal Cathedral, then to Paradise CommunityChurch in Adelaide, South Australia, to Christian City Church andHillsong Church in Sydney .. and here is what the Lord said …Five hundred years ago a man named Martin Luther protestedagainst the injustice of the prosperity of the Roman CatholicChurch at the expense of its adherents. He sounded an alarm overwrong doctrine and ugly practice. He heralded the need for menand women everywhere to discover that their salvation did notdepend on their commitment to an institutional church but that theycould be saved by grace and justified by faith through their ownrelationship with God.Luther understood that, at the literal end of the day, we would eachstand alone before God to answer for our relationship with Him andNOT our membership of a church like that of the Roman Catholicsas was his “target” some 500 years ago.Now, why would God show me all of those churches in the UK,America and here in Australia to then go on to say something likethat? Here is what I now understand:For all of our dogmatic adherence to our protestant ways, thechurch of today (including the supposedly free charismatics andPentecostals) are just as guilty, as the Roman Catholics were, ofbuilding cathedrals of perverted prosperity at the expense of their adherents.Sure, we don’t build cathedrals in the traditional sense anymore,but they are cathedrals nonetheless! A traditional cathedral wasalways known for its imposing size; it’s ability to house thousandsat a time; it’s majestic music and huge choirs; and itscontemporary opulence.If that be the case, please tell me how the aforementionedchurches are any different to the Catholic Cathedrals of old?1. They are Known for their Imposing Splendour.Recently my wife and I saw the tail-end of an episode of “Your BestLife” with Joel Osteen only to see him dedicating LakewoodChurch’s new facility; an ex-sports stadium capable of seatingabout 10,000 people at a time. I was really saddened to considerhow excited these people were about dedicating a monolithicmeeting room that would only be used for about 12 hours a week.Closer to home, it’s astounding how Hillsong Church’s new BellaVista campus is the one place many Christians consider a “must-see” when they visit Sydney.2. They are Known for their Ability to House Thousands at a TimeRegardless of whether it is a modern conference-type facility or asandstone edifice, whichever way you cut it, the minute we build afacility capable of housing thousands of adherents at a time for theprimary intent of “having church”, we have built a cathedral.3. They are Known for their Majestic Music and Huge ChoirsHere in Australia, the best examples of modern cathedrals in thisregard are Hillsong Church and Christian City Church in Sydney.These two “local” churches are known for their magnificent musicand their choirs. In fact, I find it tragically hysterical that almostevery church that has tried to adopt their model or style of worshipnow has a choir, a choir stand and a choir leader … “.. but we’renot bound by liturgy. We’re spirit-filled and free”.4. They are Known for their Contemporary Opulence.One of these churches recently spent in excess of $300,000 onstate-of-the-art digital audio mixing desks for use in their services.Others have installed the very best commercial quality theatreseating. In others, the lighting rig alone rivals that of a major rockconcert. Lakewood Church even features a huge slowly rotatingglobe as a backdrop for the televising of their services.I’m not trying to be critical of these mega-churches simply to beseen to have a post-modernist whinge. What I am trying tocommunicate is that many over the centuries have fought with theirvery lives and reputations to see us, the church, break free of thethings that the Roman Catholic church held so dear until the timeof Martin Luther’s protests. Today we claim to be living freely in theliberty of those protests and yet we have simply allowed ourselvesto become ensnared in the very things that trapped the men wholed the church after Constantine got his hands on it back in about300 AD and those are the same traps that ultimately robbed us ofthe purity and power of the early church.Thomas Aquinas is reported as having had an audience with thePope of his time. When he was ushered into the Pope’s presence,the Pope gestured saying, “Look Thomas. Never again will we haveto say ’silver and gold I do not have’”. To which Thomas Aquinasresponded, "And neither will we ever again be able to say ‘in thename of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise and walk ’”. Ouch!When will we ever learn that to build a tower supposedly as anexample of how great God is when in reality it’s a legacy to howgreat we are, will only result in God coming and scattering it andus once again as He did on the plains of Shinar?There is a consistent theme of “God-made” vs “man-made” thatruns through the Scriptures, but it’s so subtle you may not havenoticed how serious God is about it.In the days of old, God always called for altars to be made fromuncut, God-made stone. When Uzza steadied the Ark of theCovenant on the cart, he lost his life because David was instructedto carry it on the shoulders of God-made men, not on a man-madecart. Jesus told Peter that He would build His church upon Hisrevelation about the God-made Christ .. not upon Peter as a man-made Pope. Further, the church is made up of God- made livingstones with a God-made living Saviour as its chief cornerstone. We,God-made men and women, ARE the temple (the Holy of Holies) ofthe Holy Spirit.Do you see it?My Aussie friend Phil Marshall, who pastors a church in Edmonton,Canada told me recently that, in the five years to 2005, the churchin North America has spent nearly 25 billion dollars on buildingprograms! Recently Dr Robert Schuller, founder of the CrystalCathedral, retired. When asked by Larry King what he would bedoing with his time during retirement, Schuller replied by tellingKing that he would dedicate himself to establishing a fund thatwould ensure the Crystal Cathedral would always stand and thatthe property would never be sold.When will we begin to live for the things that so many others havegiven their lives for over the two millennia since Christ first showedthe way that a life must be lived, a death must be died and a God-made church must be built?We must stop investing millions of dollars into structures that areultimately of no real value to the Kingdom of God. Sure, we mightgather in them, and people may even become believers, get healedor delivered in them, but at what cost to the Kingdom? We investmillions, even billions of dollars into building buildings when weshould be investing it into building lives. We say that's what thebuilding is ultimately designed for, but when will we stop foolingourselves? What it so frequently comes down to is "mine's biggerthan yours".Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not against buildings forKingdom purposes. In some cases we need them. Heck, I live in abuilding that's used for Kingdom purposes .. it's called my home.I'm not against the specific churches I've already named nor anychurch for that matter. I'm not having a rant or making an attackbecause I "have issues" with organised religion. I have given muchof the last 30 years to serving the Body of Christ in one form oranother .. as an ordained minister, as an itinerant prophetic teacher,as a general gopher, a church planter and more. I am passionateabout the church.However, I am motivated to sound a God-inspired alarm for ministriesand churches to stop continually perpetuating the production of thenumber one world-wide killer of genuine Christian community andmissional activity just to be seen to have made it among theirpeers. That number one world-wide killer? The building program ..especially as it relates to building mega-church structures.I remember reading that Smith Wigglesworth once said .. “I am athousand times bigger on the inside”. I can relate to that. Now thatI’m over 40, my body is changing. Physically I’m a little more ’solid’(some might rudely say ‘portly’) than I used to be. As a result, Isometimes like to joke with people that “I’m a temple of the HolyGhost and I’m putting on extensions!” But all jokes aside, the onlybuilding program that God is truly interested in is for us tocorporately work to build who we are in Him, because this is theonly God-made place He Himself desires to dwell in all His fullness.In the end, if we must build cathedrals, may God be pleased to fillthe expanse of our growing and maturing spirits and may they,and only they ..being fit together with one another in love .. be thecathedrals of praise we see built now and in the future.

you are lamenting a situation that a.w. tozer forecast in his book 'God Tells The Man Who Cares.'"When Christ is not all in all to the minister he is tempted to seek place for himself, and pleasing the crowds is a time-proved way to get on in church circles. Instead of leading his people where they ought to go, he skillfully leads them where he knows they want to go. In this way he gives the appearance of being a bold leader of men, but avoids offending anyone, and thus assures ecclesiastical preferment when the big church or the high office is open."we have reached the place in this age/dispensation/whatyouwill in which we are fulfilling Paul's predictions in 2 Timothy 3:2Ti 3:1-9 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, (4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; (5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (6) For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, (7) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (8) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (9) But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.every building program my church does sends shudders through me.but what has really peaked my curiosity is WHY are we suddenly having these mega-churches? a closer examination of the 'gospel' that is preached today yields the answer, i feel. today's 'gospel' is the love gospel. "there's a hole in your heart that only God can fill/ Jesus loves you/ just come as you are and He'll clean you up later", etc.. this 'gospel' follows the four spiritual laws tract that was so popular a few years ago.this will not bring revival because it produces people who believe they are Christians, yet have never repented of their sins and come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. when confronted with their need for repentence after their 'conversion', they see no need since they have 'Jesus living in their heart'.examine the preaching from true revivals; revivals that have shut down bars and whore-houses have sin and the need for repentence as their dominant themes. show me a mega-church where repentence is preached. you can't. the mega-churches are preaching the love 'gospel'. after all, that's where the money is.

in the five years to 2005, the church in North America has spent nearly 25 billion dollars on building programs!If that is true the number is staggering. I decided to do some calculations on what this amount of money could have funded towards building living temples made without hands.Gospel for Asia says that it costs them between $90-150 a month to fully support a native missionary in the part of the world where they are.So, 25,000,000,000 divided by 60(months) divided by $120 and I come up with....3,472,222Someone correct my math here?Consider this qoute from Revolution in world Missions by KP Yohannan, founder of Gospel for AisaHow many are needed? In India alone we still have 500,000 villages to reach. Looking at others nations, we realize thousands more remain without a witness. If we are to reach all the other hamlets open to us right now, Gospel for Asia will need additional native missionary evangelists by the tens of thousands. The cost to support this army will run into the millions annually. But this is only a fraction of the $94 billion that the North American Church lavished on other needs and desires in 2000.Selah

To quote KP Yohannan again:"Why do we construct extravagant, oversized, inefficient buildings at all? What dark motive in us makes us want to be the biggest and the best? We need to be asking questions of this pattern since a typical new church in America now costs as much as 2,000 "prayer houses" in the Third World. Who taught us that "bigger is better" and "nothing is too good for the house of the Lord?" Did God tell us this or have we learned it from the world?"from THE ROAD TO REALITYAny one who has not read this book should. Out side the Bible it has had the most influence on my life.In Him,geddingsm

what's the fuss? for only $12.50 you can get a ballcap! (he said tongue-in-cheek):-D

brethrenthe Lord led me through this book called pagan Chirstianity by frank viola and it has been most eye-openning. it was published in 2002 and on page 134 under the heading "the obscenely high cost of overhead" the book talks about something i feel to be most grievous in the eyes of God. the church in america owns $230 billion (with a b) worth of real estate, i'm sure that this has gone up some since then. almost a quarter of a trillion dollars...to maintain all of that (maintainance, bills for the building) costs about 18% of the 11 or so billion which is donated annualy to the churches, that's almost $2 billion! now assuming the $150 or so it takes to maintain a mission in india as per Y.P. Yohannan, that could support 133 333 such missions!the contrast with the early church which for the first 300 years grew fast and turned the world upside down without such things. like bro Rahman said it's amzing to me also about how none of these bigshot preachers will ask anyone publicly to fall on their face before God to seek the Lord's sending of His Spirit for this day coz we sorely need it. well as surely as the Lord lives and before whom i stand all this churchianity and empire-building which is of man and the devil will surely be destroyed to make way for what the Lord intends to do with His Church.we are in desperate need of another pentecost. however just as surely as there were 120 in that upper room, there will be a small number of people who will be so empowered by God's Spirit. even so, just as surely as the Lord used that 120 and added daily to their number, so shall He do this time around.Lord your will be done indeed.AMEN.

Does it really matter what these ministers believe?as an individual, I could understand your point. Kenneth copeland and his disciples have their meetings all the time, and I dont' really go out of my way to post here or send out emails to people warning them on a daily basis. BUT if your church or denomination is supporting this, that's another matter. Look at the scriptures quoted in an earlier reply. Obviously, false teachers and their teachings are a problem to be addressed by Shepherds of the Lord's Church. Shepherd should protect the sheep from such wolves, not send the Sheep(God has entrusted to them) to go hear them speak.

As expensive as building programs are, in reality, they aren't all that expensive usually considering the sheer number of people financially backing it's production. The home I live in with my parents now is about 1800 sq feet or so, on about 1/3 of an acre of land. Yet, it is worth roughly 175k, and we bought it for about 105k a few years ago. Our house at best can accomodate roughly 15 or so people before we run out of places to put people. My current church meets in a building that is over 50 years old and is starting to seriously fall apart. Right now, it would be more expensive to repair things and remodel than it would to build an entirely new building. We are erecting a new building which will seat about 250, and then have a general multi-purpose room for other events. It's going to be 60 x 100 (6000 sq ft). It will be an aluminum/steel building, and cost roughly $100 grand to build (though we already own the land. Pratically speaking, that's a great price. The building can hold hundreds of people at one time, and is a rather functional meeting place, compared to my home, which is not a functional meeting place and costs a lot more. So, let's not harp too badly about building programs. Some building programs are indeed absurd, but not all of them are. I think practically speaking, some churches would be better off breaking into another congregation somewhere if people are coming from distances to gather, than to erect a bigger and bigger building.

Does it really matter what these ministers believe?Or is it teach?Someone might say, "Yes, but people are following them, and they must be warned". They are following them because they are blind, you can't do anything about it.Sure we can Karl.We must leave them up to the mercy of God that they will see the light and turn. Isn't that what some us here have done? Perhaps, but just as surely many have been challenged by being warned by the same said voices, given pause to think about what they are believing and why, or even having to come to face some things already troubling them but surpressed to continue to go along with the crowd. More than a few in number around these parts. Am truly grateful for those 'louder' voices rising above the din, not louder in decibels, but louder in truth.

we are in desperate need of another pentecost.I agree brother. I am convinced the situation here in America is becoming very desperate. The thought that keeps coming to me about this in terms of America is, we need to obey what we know to do first. We need to obey God. Maybe we could all start here by getting a petition together to ask our leaders to proclaim a national day of morning and humiliation for our multiplied transgressions against Almighty God.We could send it as a community of believers.

bro Chrisit will have to become much more dire for the majority of the called to wake up. i'm unsure how our leader would respond to such a petition for a day of prayer and fasting but that sounds like a good idea. if this is what the Lord is laying on your heart to do then by all means do it bro. for those that have ears to hear, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!