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Debating or edifying???

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brentw Mar 11, 2006

TWO animals are fighting over petty issues until they are forced to fight a lion. Now all of a sudden the 2 animals become friends to join together to defeat the lion. The lion is the world and we are the animals fighting, debating over petty issues while sinners go to hell. The soul mission is to win souls. If the animals who are fighting could see the lion we wouldnt be loosing so many souls to the devil. There was very little debating in the book of Acts because they were to busy winning souls for Jesus. No time to look to each other because they were looking at lost souls together. One mind, one heart serving the Lord.O if our churches would see lost souls in the light of eternity. Let Jesus reign and self be slain.

sermonindex Mar 11, 2006

Not to worry brent ... the lions are coming ... just like the Coliseum days .... are ya ready ?Not only has persecution always brought the true believers together in Unity, but it also ushered in the greatest times of Soul Winning.You must read Acts from Paul's eyes too though ... he was constantly-constantly "contending for the truth". So yes, they had both of these things in Acts.Contending for souls to be saved and contending for truth to keep them saved.Hang in there bro ... let's let all things refine us, even these small trials and tests.I pray with you that our burden for souls will increase with each passing day.And our discernment grows to know, what is petty and what is worth contending for ... as our hero Paul knew.God Bless you brent.

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Logic Mar 11, 2006

Debating is just good conversation if it is not heated. If there is no debate, how would any one be persuaded to a clearer view? why do we have public Debates? To me Debating is edifying.We must learn how to debate with out getting emotional.debate:1. To deliberate on. To consider something; deliberate.2. To engage in an unheated argument by discussing opposing points.3. To engage in a formal discussion or a formal argument . See synonyms at discuss.argument:1. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed.2. A quarrel; a dispute.3. Archaic. A reason or matter for dispute or contention:

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brentw Mar 11, 2006

DeaDebating is just good conversation if it is not heated. If there is no debate, how would any one be persuaded to a clearer view? why do we have public Debates? To me Debating is edifying.Look at the state of the church. She has caused so many divisions over ONE or ONE verse sentance...just debating of course. Once save always saveddivorce & reamarriagesin to deathtoungesdrinking moderationtranslationslegalismand the list goes on & on...Debating & deabting over these issues splitting up denominations. Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell. The way I see it we have 95% debating and 5% witnessing? Or how many hours a week or day do I or we sit in front of the computer instead of witnessing fo Jesus. How much of an American christian am I or we?? I was reading EM Bounds the other day and he was saying how desperate the hour is and that we have no time play games....I thought, Bounds said that over 100 years ago so what about now??

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Logic Mar 11, 2006

brentw wrote:Look at the state of the church. She has caused so many divisions over ONE or ONE verse sentence...just debating of course. Once save always savedDivorce & remarriageSin to deathTonguesDrinking moderationTranslationsLegalismMoreover, the list goes on & on...Debating & debating over these issues splitting up denominations. Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell. The way I see it we have 95% debating and 5% witnessing. Or how many hours a week or day do I or we sit in front of the computer instead of witnessing of Jesus. How much of an American Christian am I or we? I was reading EM Bounds the other day and he was saying how desperate the hour is and that we have no time play games....I thought, Bounds said that over 100 years ago so what about now??You must not forget that we all live in a fallen world. Don’t blame all the evil in the church, just because of Debating. Blaim it on sin. Maybe even on lack of prayer, or hardness of haert.Jesus told a parable about denominationsMat 13:31-32 another parable put he forth unto them, saying, the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: :32 which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.The mustard seed is the Church that we read in Acts 1, 2, and 3. As it grew, it is the greatest among herbs because it is the True religion. However, it became a tree, it mutated into a some thing that it is not, a tree is not an herb. The branches are the different denominations and there are birds in all the branches. Birds are not good characters in this parable.

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brentw Mar 11, 2006

You must not forget that we all live in a fallen world. Don’t blame all the evil in the church, just because of Debating. Blaim it on sin. Ravenhill said: "Were suffering not for the sin of America but of the church..."Ravenhill said this in many different ways...America is the way she is because of the church! Ravenhill said the tragedy is we have a sick church in a dying world. When I say debating I'm saying we as the church are focussed on inside the four walls....Ravenhill said he believed we as a nation are in a worst state than BEFORE the revival of 1741!!Ravenhill preached at a pastors conference where I used to attend a church, and he told the pastors 'how much more worse does America have to get before you wake up!!?'

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ChrisJD Mar 12, 2006

Hi brentw, and everyone else.brentw, I think I really appreciate what you are saying here, especially since early after my conversion I was especially prone to get into arguments about all sorts of doctrines and issues. I am pursuaded that the fault was greatly with myself. I do still hold firmly to many particular doctrines, however my zeal to defend them I hope has been tempered by a bit more discernment and a withering away of selish-pride, which no doubt promoted many disputes.Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell.I think this qoute from Revolution In World Missions by K.P. Yohannan is very telling alsoThe United States, with its 600,000 congregations or groups, is blessed with 1.5 million full-time Christian workers, or one full-time religious leader for every 182 people in the nation.Now, here are some statistics cited in the tract by Ray Comfort, America America1. %60 of married couples admit to adultery2. approximatley 1 in 5 people in the US, or 45 million individuals, are infected with the virus that causes genital herpes.3. 380,000 rapes in 19934. a 1997 report said there were 665 million porn video rentals5. 1,267,415 abortions in 1998 and more than 40 million since Roe vs. Wade.6. 18,000 murders in 1997. An average of 20,000 per year. Over 200,000 during the 1990'sSomething I see around the city of Philadelphia is a significant occult influence. I don't want to describe all this stuff becuase I don't feel right about. Just take my words for it: it's as though the sewers of hell have been opened and let to spill out into the streets. Filth and wickendness are very common in all different forms. I am not exagerating.Is this isolated? I doubt it. The place I lived in Baltimore before had the same things. Some of this stuff is exceedingly gross. I am certain there is much that goes on that we just do not know about and that is probably good.Praise be to God however, there was a perverted store that opened up in the neighborhood that I lived in before and I made a point of standing in front of it sometimes while I was out sharing the gospel and praying for the Lord to bring it to nothing. Shortly before I moved I saw that it looked like it has closed down! Whatever is the cause, we need to do what we have been commanded to do and obey the truth that God has given us.God be with you brother, for His name's sake.

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Logic Mar 12, 2006

brentw wrote:Ravenhill said he believed we as a nation are in a worst state than BEFORE the revival of 1741!!the answer for that reason is this:Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. :44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.and he told the pastors 'how much more worse does America have to get before you wake upI agree absolutly 100%I believe that the Amarica needs to go into a time of lack and need, and maybe the Church even need persecution to wake it up.

sermonindex Mar 12, 2006

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I refer you to this thread because the same conversation is now in two places.All the things mentioned in Chris' post are a problem because we've yelled "Unity" and "Don't rock the boat" for at the minimum of 30 or so years now.It's because of this "let's not disagree" attitude that we are being taken in by the heretics that are scattering the flock and causing this "falling away".Our Classic Authors were not like that At All.One of the earliest books from our church fathers is called "Against Heresies".We are to contend, but not "fight" and you can "contend for three years at one Church" as Paul did and not be in sin or out of God's Will.The Church is in the shape it is because we are yelling Peace, Peace when our Classic Authors, even up to Ravenhill did not speak lightly or gently as this younger Church wishes everything to be.YES we are to have an equal burden for the lost ... but WHAT are we bringing the lost INTO ?Churches full of heresy and apostasy !John the Baptist turned Israel on it's head, then Jesus, then the Apostles and looking at Paul with his writing Half of our N.T. ... where is this cry for PEACE coming from ?It comes from not being grounded in Truth.And because we know we cannot defend many Doctrines, we get nervous and want to end all contending.And this is why those list of sins are at the proportion that they are and we are IN the Apostasy, because we are passive to the unbiblical extreme.We fear exposing error because it's not EASY on us.Where are the men of old ? Where are the Prophets ? Where are those with discernment and the zeal for truth, that sent our forefathers to the stake to burn, in order to protect His Truth for This Church ?Do you mean to tell me that all of these Audio sermons that we have on this site are wrong because they Raised their Voices or yelled ?"Give me a break please" ... I saw a Discernment Ministry article with those words in it. I'll try to find that article. I thought that title was funny. It was called "Touch not my anoited - give me a break" Ha !Let's get serious with these thoughts though.Thanks.Annie

sermonindex Mar 12, 2006

Volume 6, Issue 6 "DECEPTION IN THE CHURCH" e-Newsletter by Sandy Simpson www.deceptioninthechurch.com I have noticed a decided tendency on the part of a growing number of churches and pastors to distance themselves from discernment ministries and hard issues. Now let me say at the start that if you are one of those church leaders who do stand for the truth and use those involved in discernment ministries, keep up the good work. I realize full well that pastors in particular do not have the time to check out all the materials that come through their churches. This is where you can make good use of those who do discernment research. That being said, I see a concerted move by many churches toward a critical attitude concerning discernment ministries in general. Not every situation is the same but, from what I see, there are a number of factors that play into this new bad attitude towards discernment. First, a number of large churches are in the middle of building or expansion programs and they don’t want to offend any of their constituency and lose funding. I believe they have found it easier, in their minds, to bury any dialog on difficult issues that face the church and concentrate on being "friendly" with everyone. I have seen a growing number of churches drop financial backing for missions and missionaries who are involved in cult and/or discernment ministries because they feel it is just too controversial a stand for their church at a time when funding for building programs is taking center stage. What they don't realize is that if they decide to back down from standing for the truth it won't be long before their churches are filled with thrill seeking nominal Christians on the hunt for wilder experiences and exciting myths rather than biblical teaching. I have seen it happen over and over again. Another factor in the new "dising" of discernment ministries is the move toward "seeker friendly" services and outreach programs that preach "God is love" without the offense of the cross. Those who stick to the old rugged cross and the hard truths of the Word are looked upon as out-of-date old "fuddy duddies" who go around seeing every glass as half empty. Many churches have decided that, since positive reinforcement and lots of fun activities builds numbers quickly, those who are perceived as "negative" and "old" must be pruned off the tree at all costs. You would be surprised at the talk that goes on today in the church behind the backs of Christians involved in discernment ministries, or even those who doggedly stick to the truth of the Word of God. I guess the feeling is -- if you can't stifle the message, stifle the messenger. You do that by passing around unverified stories and vilifying people on the basis of something someone else said or did, e.g.. guilt by association. I am here to stick up for those Christian brothers and sisters God has placed in your church to help the church stay on track with the Word, and keep the heretical riff raff away from your church pulpits, music ministry and bookstores till they repent. When a brother who is a discernment researcher reads a book in your church bookstore and finds some serious heresy within, that person should not be told they are making something out of nothing out of hand. Every serious concern should be investigated and the elders, pastors and others leaders in the church ought to take heresy very seriously so they can make informed decisions about what they will and will not allow into their church. Unfortunately many churches have apparently decided to give up the fight. Let me tell you how that happens. It usually starts with unbiblical music being played for worship and sold in the church bookstore, then moves to books written by Third Wavers being promoted and used in the church. Then videos like Transformations hawking an unbiblical prayer agenda are shown, and special speakers with dubious connections and unbiblical doctrines are allowed into the pulpit. Finally you begin seeing "revival" meetings replete with the "impartation". It all leavens in so innocently and slowly that most churches don't even know what hit them until it's too late and, of course, by that point they are afraid to offend their constituency by making a strong stand against anything. This is where the discernment ministries can help. They can help you stand against the river of apostasy that is trying to enter every Christian gathering even as we speak. Church leaders need to realize that discernment ministries are an asset and not a liability. Pastors and those in discernment ministries need to sharpen one another. Issues should be discussed, not shoved under the rug. Why are we so afraid to talk to one another other about difficult subjects these days? Is our belief system so fragile and our personalities so insecure that we are afraid of correction? The mistake I am seeing being made today is that biblical terms like "admonition", "exhortation", and "rebuke" have become nice Christianized clichés we use on Sunday morning but have almost ceased to exist as a tool for the building up of the Body of Christ. Sound doctrine is not an option for Christians. It is something we need to guard at all costs, and here I am not talking about minor issues on which Christians may disagree but on core doctrines. If you want your church to be leavened into apostasy, simply drop your guard. It will happen so subtly you will probably not even notice it. The Bereans were commended for being more noble because they searched the Scriptures daily to check out what Paul preached. I don't expect or desire any applause for myself and that is not the intent of this letter. This e-mail is my attempt to step up to bat on behalf of those in your church who have a deep love of the truth and are willing to put their reputations on the line to stand up for it. They ought to be treated with the utmost respect. FEATURE ARTICLE The feature article in this issue is "The Importance of Sound Doctrine" by A.W. Tozer, The Best Of A.W. Tozer, pg. 174-176, taken from Man,. The Dwelling Place Of God. Though this article was written a long time ago, it shows that the seeds of unbiblical doctrines that were beginning to be accepted in the post-Modern church have today blossomed into full blown heresy. Yet we have become so used to false teachings and teachers that we have become numb and unresponsive to the need to separate ourselves from them as a holy people unto the Lord. This article is a call back to standing up for the truth. I am convinced that we are swiftly entering a time when the issue will not be "Renounce Jesus or die" but rather "Don't judge, don't discern, don't speak out, and don't be divisive or die". Will most Christians be able to stand that kind of test? I wonder. In Christ, Sandy Simpson, missionary --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Importance of Sound Doctrine by A.W. Tozer, The Best Of A.W. Tozer, pg. 174-176, taken from Man, The Dwelling Place Of God --------------------------------------------------------------------------------It would be impossible to overemphasize the importance of sound doctrine in the life of a Christian. Right thinking about all spiritual matters is imperative if we would have right living. As men do not gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles, so sound character does not grow out of unsound teaching. The word doctrine means simply religious beliefs held and taught. It is the sacred task of all Christians, first as believers and then as teachers of religious beliefs, to be certain that these beliefs correspond exactly to truth. A precise agreement between belief and fact constitutes soundness in doctrine. We cannot afford to have less. The apostles not only taught truth but contended for its purity against any who would corrupt it. The Pauline epistles resist every effort of false teachers to introduce doctrinal vagaries. john's epistles are sharp with condemnation of those teachers who harassed the young church by denying the incarnation and throwing doubts upon the doctrine of the Trinity; and Jude in his brief but powerful epistle rises to heights of burning eloquence as he pours scorn upon evil teachers who would mislead the saints. Each generation of Christians must look to its beliefs. While truth itself is unchanging, the minds of men are porous vessels out of which truth can leak and into which error may seep to dilute the truth they contain. The human heart is heretical by nature and runs to error as naturally as a garden to weeds. All a man, a church or a denomination needs to guarantee deterioration of doctrine is to take everything for granted and do nothing. The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness; the church or denomination that grows careless on the highway of truth will before long find itself astray, bogged down in some mud flat from which there is no escape. In every field of human thought and activity accuracy is considered a virtue. To err ever so slightly is to invite serious loss, if not death itself. Only in religious thought is faithfulness to truth looked upon as a fault. When men deal with things earthly and temporal they demand truth; when they come to the consideration of things heavenly and eternal they hedge and hesitate as if truth either could not be discovered or didn't matter anyway. Montaigne said that a liar is one who is brave toward God and a coward toward men; for a liar faces God and shrinks from men. Is this not simply a proof of unbelief? Is it not to say that the liar believes in men but is not convinced of the existence of God, and is willing to risk the displeasure of a God who may not exist rather than that of man who obviously does? I think also that deep, basic unbelief is back of human carelessness in religion. The scientist, the physician, the navigator deals with matters he knows are real; and because these things are real the world demands that both teacher and practitioner be skilled in the knowledge of them. The teacher of spiritual things only is required to be unsure in his beliefs, ambiguous in his remarks and tolerant of every religious opinion expressed by anyone, even by the man least qualified to hold an opinion. Haziness of doctrine has always been the mark of the liberal. When the Holy Scriptures are rejected as the final authority on religious belief something must be found to take their place. Historically that something has been either reason or sentiment: if sentiment, it has been humanism. Sometimes there has been an admixture of the two, as may be seen in liberal churches today. These will not quite give up the Bible, neither will they quite believe it; the result is an unclear body of beliefs more like a fog than a mountain, where anything may be true but nothing may be trusted as being certainly true. We have gotten accustomed to the blurred puffs of gray fog that pass for doctrine in modernistic churches and expect nothing better, but it is a cause for real alarm that the fog has begun of late to creep into many evangelical churches. From some previously unimpeachable sources are now coming vague statements consisting of a milky admixture of Scripture, science and human sentiment that is true to none of its ingredients because each one works to cancel the others out. Certain of our evangelical brethren appear to be laboring under the impression that they are advanced thinkers because they are rethinking evolution and re-evaluating various Bible doctrines or even divine inspiration itself; but so far are they from being advanced thinkers that they are merely timid followers of modemism-fifty years behind the parade. Little by little evangelical Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition. Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.

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brentw Mar 12, 2006

Annie,Vance Havner said: 'we send new converts into the biggest refrigerators in the world...the ones with steeples on them' ;-)

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CyberCarbon Mar 12, 2006

People in this country (USofA) want everything easy fast and without pain or sacrifice. Satan loves it Television preaches it. The liberal church confirms it, the public schools teach it, most people live it.

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roadsign Mar 12, 2006

I am here to stick up for those Christian brothers and sisters God has placed in your church to help the church stay on track with the Word, and keep the heretical riff raff away from your church pulpits,Annie, thanks sooooooooooooo much for this article you posted. It validates the role of discreners in the Body. However, the resistance is phenominal. Churches adhere carefully to their heirarchy and prescribed positions of authority. When one of the "lesser" uneducated members speaks out, he/she is silenced, and viewed as one lacking authority or understanding to do so. You are branded as a '"trouble maker', or even just a little "off". So forever after that the "knob" is turned off. No one listens to anything you have to say. You are discounted forever after that. You are silenced. Then you have to develop a new strategy: Speak directly to the underlings, those in the church who are also concerned and willing to hear. In this day of modern communication, you can also email articles, pass out CD's, books, articles, and speak to ANY people in ANY church who are concerned, and are willing to listen to someone other than the preacher or their denomination. Of course it works both ways: Heresies spread fast that way too. But regardless, God is zealous for his Church and will indeed find an open door for his messengers. re debating: I have come to believe that it is fruitless to debate with one who is rigid in his view, and is threatend by one who may challenge it. In their mind debate is not an invitation to think deeply but a DANGER to the "stability". There are many who don't want the boat to rock because some people might fall out. They'd prefer that it sinks slowly and everybody drown. Diane

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ChrisJD Mar 12, 2006

Hi Meagain, how are you? I wanted to make a few comments about your post and I hope they will be helpfull to our understanding.It's because of this "let's not disagree" attitude that we are being taken in by the heretics that are scattering the flock and causing this "falling away".I'm not sure it is that simple. What about the influence of the uncoverted being brought into the churches? Is it possible that these are the ones contending for their own self-willed interpretations of scripture and causing divisions?. And could this be why so many of these are evident:Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such likeHere is a literal translation of verse 20 |1495| idol-service, |5331| sorcery, |2189| hostilities, |2054| fightings, |2205| jealousies, |2372| angers, |2052| rivalries, |1370| divisions, |0139| heresiesI can't speak for anyone else but these are what was on my mind perosonally in this thread. I think what greives me when I see this more than anything is the disregard displayed towards the spirit life of other believers for the sake of prevailing upon one another to advance a particular doctrine or percieved truth.I was reminded of this If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.I think if we look at the entire context in which this warning appears, it can be applied to how we treat the other vessels in God's house, for before this he warnsBut let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.The way I understood this was, imagine a hired servant going around a magnificent house breaking all the precious vessels becuase he was careless in the discharging of his duties? Imagine how the owner of that house would deal with him?And so I think all of this should be considered in the way we treat each other, including how we handle God's truth with each other. I like this probing question from the scripture What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?And yet is there not a tendency for us to handle the truths of scripture as though we owned them, and were not only stewards entrusted with them? Certainly it is our duty to carefully guard these truths from corruption, but God forbid it would be done outside of the yoke of God's control. The definition that I have stuck with so far for meekness is thispower under controlAnd when it comes to weilding the powerfull Sword of the Spirit, the question is, not only whether we are correct in what we are saying, but is saying it in this way, and at this time, appropriate.There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.and.. In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.for also it saysA word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.Is it possible, that many sincere people, with the motive of defending truth, are actually participating with a 'party' or 'factious' spirit(see list above)? I think this is a place for discernment also, don't you? And I thought this was the issue that was being discussed here, I could be wrong.Anyway, I think we are really discussing two seperate ideas here, and I wanted to make my own thoughts clear. At least this is what I thought brent was addressing at first but again, I could be wrong.As a sort of aside, one of my very brief experiences of open-air preaching involved confronting this heretical group here in Philadelphia called the 'Isrealites.' It didn't go to well(as I saw it) and some of them(I think they were with them) treated me very shamefully. Someone even threw what looked like a bottle of lotion? at me! It just barely missed. Just thought I'd add this in here to let you all know I'm not just a 'paper tiger'. Hehe :-P May God watch over all of you and protect you in Jesus name.

sermonindex Mar 12, 2006

I'll be back to tend to your post later Chris.Right now, I'm really tired, yet want to be here with friends.I see where I will want to handle yours with the same type I posted at the end of this last page, because it was my answer to your first post on that first page also.Haven't got it at present to contend with your words.TTYLLoveAnnie

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GaryE Mar 13, 2006

Chris, I like your post. It isn't that I always disagree with what discernment ministries are saying, most of the time they are on a subject I agree with, but it is the fruit of what I see coming from them. They talk of fruit in others yet they don't see their own fruit.Often people say that something is what the bible says when instead it is only there opinion of what the bible says. People sometimes accuse others of heresy when it is them who are in a misunderstanding of scripture. They then carry this into a fleshly debate that is nothing but strife and contention. Even if a person is right in there opinion, a fleshly debate of strife and contention isn't of God. When this is done it divides the brethren..................................................The literal translation of the words you listed are very interesting because these things are what is often seen coming from the discernment ministries.{Quote}Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.Here is a literal translation of verse 20|1495| idol-service,|5331| sorcery,|2189| hostilities,|2054| fightings,|2205| jealousies,|2372| angers,|2052| rivalries,|1370| divisions,|0139| heresies...............................................Yes, we are to contend for the faith but often what ends up happening is that we end up contending for our opinions instead; Our own interpretations of scriptures or the teachings that come from our particular denomination or church. When we do this, we end up getting carried into these sins listed in Galations 5:20. This seems to happen when we go from discussion into debate. If we are not careful, we end up in the above sins and are in sin just as those we might be trying to correct.It seems that it is so easy to forget that our enemy is not people.

sermonindex Mar 13, 2006

Gary, I've had some health issues endanger my well-being today ... so I can't answer as well as I'd prefer to and I can't answer Chris' yet ... but I ask you as a sister in Christ, who has grown to love and respect you, to re-read your post and see if you are not "judging" others by the same measure you say that they are judging. Mostly in the first two paragraphs.I hope first that you understand that I mean no harm to you, but you've painted with a broad brush here and HOW can you say that their doctrines are wrong, unless you yourself feel yours are right, so much so, that you can judge theirs.This "discernment" stuff is tricky business ... and when we start out to "discern the discernment ministries" we have to have our doctrine provable, Apologetically, in order to properly discern the doctrine of another.You spoke in Generalities .... please read your Own words carefully and see that you are doing the very thing that you are saying that "these" (who?) Discernment people (or posters) are doing.If you know of a Ministry or poster that is actually doing all of these things, then name them and tell us where they are off or which doctrines they are messed up on.A poster may not know that they are off doctrinally or in spirit and if we love them, and feel we have sufficient evidence to the contrary of what or how they've posted, our love for them would compel us to help them ... but speaking here in generalities doesn't help a soul. How is the erroneous poster to know that you "mean them" by posting in this fashion as you have. Don't just point fingers into the air, but help any of us to see "the truth", as you believe you see it or the "error", as you have just claimed you see in people "often".When a sentence begins with "Often people", or "They", I get a little bit worried, because we are setting ourselves up as the judge of those we call "judgers" and the word "often" in the same line as "people" definitely is a wide brush judgment.Better to be specific with 'what' Doctrines do you mean and which Ministries or "people" are you pointing at.You used the word "often" more than once, and have judged by using that word "fleshly", which means that You are Not fleshly and that is the only way you could discern "fleshly" in others. Right ?Other than that, I think we should all, everyone of us, watch the ministry of Paul, because he was definitely one of the very first "Discernment Ministers" and wrote half of our N.T. ..... so in my Book, I'd say he is the only one to judge others by. That's why God had Paul write half of THE WORD and how we should judge the other people, who you are referring to and the rest.Love you and God Bless you brother.In Peace.Annie

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h2oboy Mar 13, 2006

Thanks Chris! I appreciate your attitude. In forty five years of listening to "defense of the truth" I have discerned more of a spirit of 'eris'(2054) than a spirit of love. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 13 that any ministry or service for the Lord that is not done in love is of NO value. It seems that most Bible scholars have a gap in thier Bibles. I see very few who understand and practice 2 Tim 2:24-2624 "And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will." ASVIn all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love. May I suggest that the real problem of sin in the Church is not so much the compromise of the message from the pulpit, but that the 'sheep' are being eaten by wolves because there are not enough true shepherds. There was another posting that indicated in the USA we have 1 full-time person in ministry for every 182 people in the churches. I would like to meet the shepherd that can adequately care for 182 people and none be lost.I remember reading another posting that some churches are dropping their missions support due to the pressures of building programs etc. I was wondering which Biblical passage that these churches use to justify using the 'tithe' for buildings rather than for 'food' for the servants of God, who have been sanctified for the service of the 'House of God.' Just maybe if we would use God's 'holy' tithe for the support of His 'holy' ministers, the sheep of God would be protected from wandering from the truth, eating contaminated food, and falling into pits.Maybe if we were dedicated to making 'disciples' of Jesus Christ instead of building earthly kingdoms we would feel less need to debate doctrine and prove how right we are. Jesus turned the world upside down by investing His life in discipling twelve men in the truth. He left no legacy of buildings or programs. Jesus did not back down from those trained in 'religion' but spoke the truth in 'meekness.' It seems however that Jesus sought out people who had a heart to know the truth rather than those who wanted to fight over words.There is another thing that we should learn from Jesus example. The 'religious' who want to debate and argue are deceived. Luke 23:34 "And Jesus said, Father, forgive them ; for they know not what they do." ASVWe must be careful that we do not focus on people as the enemy when we encounter disagreement. Eph 6:12 "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual (hosts) of wickedness in the heavenly (places)." ASV We must remember that our motive in discussing doctrine is LOVE for the individual or individuals that we are facing. Any feelings of hostility MUST be directed at the spirits who are veiling their eyes from the truth.I will always embrace a brother or sister in the Lord who disagrees with my doctrine but clearly shows that their motive is for my good and not their superiority. Their demonstration of valuing me as a person regardless of my beliefs opens my heart and mind to hear what they have to say. I become sharpened in my understanding of truth by their humble, compassionate interaction and exchange.May God fill all of us with the right motive.

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roadsign Mar 13, 2006

in all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love.Amen! It is not our job to change the minds of anyone, because we can't control them. But we are always responsibile to love and respect others. THAT we can control. Setting ourselves as "above" another is perhaps a temptation that is associated with being "evangelical". It has been so ingrained in us that our role is change the world. We have the answers. Diane

sermonindex Mar 13, 2006

roadsign wrote:

in all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love.Amen! It is not our job to change the minds of anyone, because we can't control them. But we are always responsibile to love and respect others. THAT we can control. Setting ourselves as "above" another is perhaps a temptation that is associated with being "evangelical". It has been so ingrained in us that our role is change the world. We have the answers. Diane
To the brother quoted above .... I know 3 Missionaries who have Apologetic/Discernment Ministries .... are they wrong ? .... and can you explain from the Greek, the definition of a "Disciple" ? ... as you did with "strive" and show the 6 different words for "strive" in the N.T. and where and how they are used ?Diane, why do you post here many times to others on certain threads and why do you have a website ?I ask these questions with the same love and concern that I believe we're all seeking here. Believe that or not.Do we see who is judging now by the same methods others are being accused of ?Annie

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